Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Wrexasaur: WTF?

@Panic: While Jesus may not have been a supercharged/healing machine, or that 'Jesus' was even his name, I do think that he existed. (Although there is some evidence to suggest that he could very well a been a rebel, working against the Romans)

Just as much as the prophet Mohammed existed, Jesus existed. Sure, there may be much hyperbole over what they did and how they did it, but it is a historical fact that these charcters existed. To say that they never existed would be to say the Confucius or Socrates never existed.

Panic wrote:I don't believe that everything wrote in a book is the truth. Books are just another form of media, except they are more easily distorted and baised with every word translated and re-wrote or omitted.

You have to be joking at this point... or seriously out of touch with... something.

"I only get my information from the rain... the stars... and a silly little man who dwells on my shoulder."

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Wrexasaur: WTF?

GO TEAM BLUE!!! WOOT!!!

I am having an awful lot of fun with this thread... I just want to see what Panic's brain is made out of at this point to be honest. The elves are waiting in the operation room, please follow me there.

Wrexasaur wrote:
"I only get my information from the rain... the stars... and a silly little man who dwells on my shoulder."

Fool
You get your info from the rain and stars. Everybody knows that they're also working for The Man.
(The silly little man on your shoulder is good though )

Okay, the proverbial ten foot pole now has a point on it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331#

Carl Sagan is my god:



He's done more for humanity than Geebus on a Buddha imo.

yeah,
Wrexasaur, I choose what to believe.

Most of life is like dealing with estate agents, they lie and twist things so that they are telling a version of the truth, but you don't have to take their words at face value.

Panic...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warpcrafter wrote:Okay, the proverbial ten foot pole now has a point on it. ZEITGEIST

The emperor's pointy stick?

There you are! HAH!!!



Life is a lie... so I sit and fry goldfish, and then I burn ants... yep, that is the way to go about it alright.

Panic-attack wrote:Most of life is like dealing with estate agents, they lie and twist things so that they are telling a version of the truth, but you don't have to take their words at face value.

Okay then... so life is like a guy in a suit, who has boat loads of jargon for you to swallow? That is a new one to me... interesting take though, I will admit. I always thought life involved a bit more than guys in suits trying to trick me into buying something... but hey, each to their own.

I guess it is more creative than life being like a box of chocolates, but chocolate tastes good, business men however... do not.

Wrexasaur, I choose what to believe.

Backwards time! YAY!!!

I would bet a dollar that you in fact do not... and being a pretty good betting man, I like my odds. Being an independent thinker, does involve listening to other sides of the debate, not just yelling when you feel extremely and profusely epically, and absolutely emphatically right... phew, that was a tough one.

Take life with a grain of salt, and have a nice frothy beer once in a while... hmmm, I want a beer now.

P.S.

If you can even understand what in the hell Zeitgeist is actually claiming, I do commend you, and I will keep a cookie on lay-away for you just in case my bet doesn't work out. Besides this point though, Zeitgeist is one sad attempt at outlandish claim having though, I will say that.

2500th post, I have to make this one epic. Would you mind if I broke you down Panic? I think I am gaining interest in your perspective.

Okie dokie then, I think another picture is needed... one that shows Icarus trying to swim after falling into the ocean... with his nubs, cute nubs too .



Pretty sweet eh? Every generation has their cult, and this one is most definitely no exception. If the 60's were not proof that most hippies moved on to better things, then I guess we can all get a second glimpse into the mind of a desperate attempt to reform reality as we know it. I like hippies, don't get me wrong, but angry AND smelly hippies... that is just too much, and a dichotomy to boot.

This is my god.

There are many like it, but this one is MINE.

My god is my best friend. It is my life.

I must master it as I must master my life.

My god without me is useless. Without my god, I am useless.


You know the rest.

reds8n wrote:

Oh and for you atheists out there, I'm actually honestly quite curious, what do you believe happens to you when you die? I know a few people who say "nothing", but that seems a bit of a cop out to me and also kind of depressing.

I don't think anything happens to you when you die, at least not with regards with some continuing form of existence like a soul or similar.

I don't quite see how this is anymore of a "cop out" than people believing that they'll go to some wonderful afterlife where everything will be perfect. That seems a cop out to me.

Depressing ? Maybe, but it is ( so to speak) a fact of life so there's no point getting bent out of shape about it.

Christianity does not oppose the theories of evolution, and in fact, supports them here or there.

Indeed. I find the way the opposition to the idea baffling even on theological grounds. Even if you to the literal word of god angle, there's mention of the "corners of the earth" and I don't see people using this to argue that the earth isn't round.

...I'm about to be proven wrong here as flat/square earthers appear from nowhere aren't I ?

haha
I guess you misunderstood me a little bit.
About the cop out, i was joking, i meant as in perhaps atheists have no imagination so, the response is "The end!" when you die. And actually, i dont believe in only a wonderful afterlife, if I'm a complete jerk and dumbass and do all the bad stuff, the "afterlife" as you put it, wont be so wonderful after all. Fire and pitchforks, and strangely enough, accordions, comes to mind.
A fact of life? Only to you my dear sir, to me the fact is that death isn't the end.
As for literalism, particularly in the Bible, (and not just your quote here, but also others) the Bible, especially the Old Testament, isn't a history textbook. Most of it, and this includes the creation story, is myth or gilded facts. The stories of the Old Testament are about what the people thought of God at that time and are more to express the loving relationship between God and Man than to tell you that everything was made in 7 days. The 7 days is likely just textual flavoring. Also, it is interesting because before the genesis creation story, all creation myths in pretty much any religion or culture had to do with a bloody war of the gods, and earth is made of a severed elbow or something off the loser. This contrast between the jewish and other creation stories was to emphasize a difference, a more humane God rather than the bloodthirsty "play with the lives of men" kind that everyone else had.
Sorry for the little rant, just don't want anyone getting confused
Oh yes, I can't remember and I'm too lazy to look back to who said it, but:
Atheistic Approach on afterlife is n/a
Religious Approach is that there is heaven, reincarnation, or other...
So, its safer to believe and practice religion, because if there is a God then you;re safe, if there isn't then it is wasted effort, but maybe you learned something.

I guess I'll pray for you so we can continue this debate in heaven, the phone connection isn't that great between heaven and hell, you blasphemous heretic!

I don't think there is much difference at all between religions...





But I'll stay out now that I inserted my funnies.... I don't want to be the reason for locking EVERY religion thread

Panic wrote:yeah,
Need a place to go when you die? Pay up.

I think religion was invented by evil men to control the vulnerable and the weak when they need help most.

Panic...

Common sophmoric view, it usually lasts until people see a religious-run orphanage, hospital, soup kitchen etc.

Blaming religion for the evil people do is silly, lots of evil throughout history lots of causes. Might as well say the same about government, philosophy, atheism, McDonalds...

Nightwatch wrote:
Atheistic Approach on afterlife is n/a
Religious Approach is that there is heaven, reincarnation, or other...

Religion can also deny the existence of an afterlife. Just as Atheism can affirm its existence. There is no hard distinction between the two.

Relapse wrote:

Since you bring the Mormons into it by name, I'll just say that we don't believe God throws people into a burnibg Hell or condemns them in any way if they don't get a chance to accept him. They'll get the chance after death and even then if they don't they won't be sent to a burning Hell.
It was something I could never really square myself with growing up, the thought of an all loving God creating a race of feeling, thinking creatures and then either throwing them into flames if they were in the least way didn't do what he wanted or sit in a green field somewhere as a pampered pet if they were living like he wanted. We don't really believe in a burning Hell, but an absence of any kind of glory that onlythose who have had a full and undeniable knowledge of God will be subject to. There's not a heck of a lot of people with that kind of knowledge, and in my entire life I've never met one that I know of.

To put it simply we don't believe God plays games of chance with his children.

IIRC one of the unique beliefs of the Mormons is that living converts can ex post facto, convert their ancestors also granting them salvation. Solves the 'born too early' problem pretty well.

Suppose reincarnation does that as well.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Since you bring the Mormons into it by name, I'll just say that we don't believe God throws people into a burnibg Hell or condemns them in any way if they don't get a chance to accept him. They'll get the chance after death and even then if they don't they won't be sent to a burning Hell.
It was something I could never really square myself with growing up, the thought of an all loving God creating a race of feeling, thinking creatures and then either throwing them into flames if they were in the least way didn't do what he wanted or sit in a green field somewhere as a pampered pet if they were living like he wanted. We don't really believe in a burning Hell, but an absence of any kind of glory that onlythose who have had a full and undeniable knowledge of God will be subject to. There's not a heck of a lot of people with that kind of knowledge, and in my entire life I've never met one that I know of.

To put it simply we don't believe God plays games of chance with his children.

IIRC one of the unique beliefs of the Mormons is that living converts can ex post facto, convert their ancestors also granting them salvation. Solves the 'born too early' problem pretty well.

Suppose reincarnation does that as well.

Wow...that's an interesting concept. I can't see how that would work though.

Nightwatch wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Since you bring the Mormons into it by name, I'll just say that we don't believe God throws people into a burnibg Hell or condemns them in any way if they don't get a chance to accept him. They'll get the chance after death and even then if they don't they won't be sent to a burning Hell.
It was something I could never really square myself with growing up, the thought of an all loving God creating a race of feeling, thinking creatures and then either throwing them into flames if they were in the least way didn't do what he wanted or sit in a green field somewhere as a pampered pet if they were living like he wanted. We don't really believe in a burning Hell, but an absence of any kind of glory that onlythose who have had a full and undeniable knowledge of God will be subject to. There's not a heck of a lot of people with that kind of knowledge, and in my entire life I've never met one that I know of.

To put it simply we don't believe God plays games of chance with his children.

IIRC one of the unique beliefs of the Mormons is that living converts can ex post facto, convert their ancestors also granting them salvation. Solves the 'born too early' problem pretty well.

Suppose reincarnation does that as well.

Wow...that's an interesting concept. I can't see how that would work though.

If I recall correctly you have to get baptised each time for each person down the line as far as you can go. Don't try to find a rational explanation. It is only rational if you believe it, if you don't, well...

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I find it a little funny that kyoto hasn't chimed in after starting this thread.

It's like he started a bar fight then quietly left while everyone was otherwise occupied...

Um dude I posted last night and I'm posting tonight.

I'd post during the day but Dakka sucks on the blackberry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:As a paladin I find myself thinking some deep thoughts lately...

Sweet, what level are you?

What level can I get to in 3 weeks?

Nightwatch wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Since you bring the Mormons into it by name, I'll just say that we don't believe God throws people into a burnibg Hell or condemns them in any way if they don't get a chance to accept him. They'll get the chance after death and even then if they don't they won't be sent to a burning Hell.
It was something I could never really square myself with growing up, the thought of an all loving God creating a race of feeling, thinking creatures and then either throwing them into flames if they were in the least way didn't do what he wanted or sit in a green field somewhere as a pampered pet if they were living like he wanted. We don't really believe in a burning Hell, but an absence of any kind of glory that onlythose who have had a full and undeniable knowledge of God will be subject to. There's not a heck of a lot of people with that kind of knowledge, and in my entire life I've never met one that I know of.

To put it simply we don't believe God plays games of chance with his children.

IIRC one of the unique beliefs of the Mormons is that living converts can ex post facto, convert their ancestors also granting them salvation. Solves the 'born too early' problem pretty well.

Suppose reincarnation does that as well.

Wow...that's an interesting concept. I can't see how that would work though.

To boill the concept down to it's simplest form, you get baptised in proxy for an ancestor and they have the option of accepting the ordinance or not.

Ahtman wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Since you bring the Mormons into it by name, I'll just say that we don't believe God throws people into a burnibg Hell or condemns them in any way if they don't get a chance to accept him. They'll get the chance after death and even then if they don't they won't be sent to a burning Hell.
It was something I could never really square myself with growing up, the thought of an all loving God creating a race of feeling, thinking creatures and then either throwing them into flames if they were in the least way didn't do what he wanted or sit in a green field somewhere as a pampered pet if they were living like he wanted. We don't really believe in a burning Hell, but an absence of any kind of glory that onlythose who have had a full and undeniable knowledge of God will be subject to. There's not a heck of a lot of people with that kind of knowledge, and in my entire life I've never met one that I know of.

To put it simply we don't believe God plays games of chance with his children.

IIRC one of the unique beliefs of the Mormons is that living converts can ex post facto, convert their ancestors also granting them salvation. Solves the 'born too early' problem pretty well.

Suppose reincarnation does that as well.

Wow...that's an interesting concept. I can't see how that would work though.

If I recall correctly you have to get baptised each time for each person down the line as far as you can go. Don't try to find a rational explanation. It is only rational if you believe it, if you don't, well...

well if you want to go to the source there's always www.mormon.org


@kyoto sorry for the joke at your expense. I guess you have less free time than most of us.

OT, I'm somewhere between 3 and 4. Spit balling, I'd say 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288

Everything on the right of the decimal is the difference between spirtuality and religion.

Gak! Existentialism, I thought that at least all moderately intelligent people had done away with that horrid philosophy long ago.... I know I had to wash myself clean of its clingy, depressing tendrils.....

JEB_Stuart wrote:Gak! Existentialism, I thought that at least all moderately intelligent people had done away with that horrid philosophy long ago.... I know I had to wash myself clean of its clingy, depressing tendrils.....

You're correct. But, the hyper-intelligent were able to get their heads around it and stuck with it.

Anyone up for purging those who still cling to the discredited and disgusting philosophy of Existentialism? I know EF will be, as it makes the Emprah pathetic....

*Shyly rasies hand*

*Then grins and not-so-shyly raises flamethrower*

Lol, I am being a bit to harsh on existentialists, but I have largely rejected most of that philosophy. And don't even get me started on Transcendentalism.....

It's pretty tough to outright reject existentialism, as it makes very few specific claims.

Transcendentalism is easy to reject, but that rejection will be invariably difficult to explain. Unless you speak Kantian.

I'm curious as to why you relate the two? Seeing as they're about as far apart as possible.

Cuz its fun
I more reject the existentialist idea that human experience, which I have always interpreted their claim as cognizant human experience, is necessary to give meaning and value to the seemingly pointless world. I see children able to find wonder and joy, without it being pointless, in a world where they have no experience. In terms of philosophy, I find existentialism to be much more useful and realistic, but meaning does not have to be bound to so strict a thing. Of course, as I said, I have only rejected some of the philosophy, because you are right: you simply cannot reject all of existentialism. Nihilism, I sure as hell can reject.

The only reason I brought up Transcendentalism was just cuz, no real reason. I rejected those ideas long ago, and I have never really felt like having to justify my position. It has just always struck me as idiotic.

Its funny, as much as I love Nietzsche, I disagree with him so much. Same goes for Kierkegaard. Although, I never really thought of Nietzsche as much of a nihilist as some would claim....

Emperors Faithful wrote:*Shyly rasies hand*

*Then grins and not-so-shyly raises flamethrower*

It's okay. I forgive you.

JEB_Stuart wrote:Cuz its fun
I more reject the existentialist idea that human experience, which I have always interpreted their claim as cognizant human experience, is necessary to give meaning and value to the seemingly pointless world. I see children able to find wonder and joy, without it being pointless, in a world where they have no experience.

You should look at Searle, or Rorty. They'll push your beliefs about Existentialism. At least I think they will.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
In terms of philosophy, I find existentialism to be much more useful and realistic, but meaning does not have to be bound to so strict a thing. Of course, as I said, I have only rejected some of the philosophy, because you are right: you simply cannot reject all of existentialism. Nihilism, I sure as hell can reject.

Certainly. I can't think of any, serious, philosopher who has embraced nihilism. I've always seen it as a form of limit, which no logical equation should approach.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
The only reason I brought up Transcendentalism was just cuz, no real reason. I rejected those ideas long ago, and I have never really felt like having to justify my position. It has just always struck me as idiotic.

I'm with you. Though I will say that,as I've studied more and more philosophy, the notion of a sort of 'bound' for possibility has begun to appeal in direct proportion. More simply, I don't think Kant was wholly off-base, merely lacking in statistical justification (and a reasonable theory of limited variance).

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Although, I never really thought of Nietzsche as much of a nihilist as some would claim....

Nietzche is one of those guys that encapsulates uncertainty so well that everyone loves his work, for vastly different reasons.

yeah,
Nihilism is perfectly valid when you concider how insignificant we are in the great scheme of the universe.
Mankind has had no impact at all... when you concider the universes billions of year of history all those human deaths and tears were honestly for nothing. But it's hard to understand true Nihilism because they shouldn't care that it's insignificant.
It's easier to think of being a existentialist with angst.

I can't remember who showed this here on dakka first, but it's cool... thanx.
Panic

perhaps atheists have no imagination so, the response is "The end!" when you die.

Hmm... not so - Atheists, being rationalists primarily would admit that they don't know for certain what happens after you die.
That pretty much goes for everything - there are no absolutes in science. However, we can say that there is ALMOST certainly no God.
And we can say that Jesus (or Yshua, to give him his real name) was ALMOST certainly not a miracle worker, because it is not physically possible to walk on water or heal the sick.

to me the fact is that death isn't the end

Again, not a fact - it's an opinion (and a borrowed one).

Most of it, and this includes the creation story, is myth or gilded facts.

'Of course, you aren't meant to take it literally....' I HATE this about religious people! You either believe it's the word of God or you don't. The bible does not support the idea of evolution at all - it explicitly states the age of earth (if you do the calculations) and how everything came into being. This is presented as the sacred word of God - if you are christian this is unavoidable. If you believe this, you have to be prepared to have it shot down, you can't qualify your faith by cherry-picking the believable bits and leaving out the unpalatable stuff (hating gays, virgin birth - don't get me started on that!)

Not being able to disprove something is not the same as proving something exists.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and awesome picture, Panic....

Made me worry about Tyranids though...