Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For those unable to read 4 pages back (to be honest if you're not able to do that then math is probably going to fly right over your head but here goes anyway) this is at least an example of the appropriate way to do this kind of study:

http://dicephysics.info/0107.htm

Dash, I found the remedy to your dice problems.

Turns out that, all this tie, you've just been doing it wrong:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Dash, I found the remedy to your dice problems.

Turns out that, all this tie, you've just been doing it wrong:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a


Eric

THat blog´s april fool jokes turn out really well. Anybody remember last year´s spray gun?

However, when reading the table of contents at the books back, I thought to myself: "I would totally buy that book." It sounds really interesting.

I want to take my GW dice cube back for a refund... 25 dice 12 of which are 1's and twos (mostly 1s').

All of my opponents in my last 6-8 games have said that my dice are crap (they were using them too)

I'm getting vexed. I'm a decent player (I have to be to stand any chance) but I feel as if the dice are against me.

Is it just me that doesn't really care? A die is a die is a die.

Remember, they're just as statistically valid to roll 6 sixes as they are to roll 1-2-3-4-5-6.

Cerebrium wrote:Remember, they're just as statistically valid to roll 6 sixes as they are to roll 1-2-3-4-5-6.

Only really true if the dice your using don't have any bias. Or if they don't come machined with two 5s like one of my chessex ones did.

Cerebrium wrote:Is it just me that doesn't really care? A die is a die is a die.

Remember, they're just as statistically valid to roll 6 sixes as they are to roll 1-2-3-4-5-6.

No. Unbalanced or biased dice do not roll true.

Saying your dice roll "mostly 1's and 2's" really doesn't make physics sense, and is clear example of confirmation bias in a game where (most often) you are required to roll 3's or more.

Chessex dice may be uneven and favour certain numbers, but the number it favours is equally probable - meaning, out of all your dice, 16.6% could possibly slightly favour 1's. And another 16.6% could slightly favour 6's. I know they put the dice in a tumbler and that process could never yield a single perfectly fair dice, but neither will the tumbling process (which is obviously completely random) end up with all dice favouring 1 side.
I refuse to believe that they roll 30% 1's. Perhaps that trial showed they rolled 30% more 1's than they should - ie 1 came up 21% of the time - but as others have said, it would be immediately apparent if the dice was biased enough to have p(1)=30.

Dash, I just want to commend you on your civil and respectful tone throughout this. I am looking into the Koplow's now because My chessex are 1) hard to see because they're dark and sparkly and 2) are incredibly frustrating most of the time. When I switch to non-chessex, rounded, 12mm the results are noticeably better.

@Grunt

Sssshhhhh. The non-believers will hear you.

Eric

We should use this space for amusing anecdotes that come as a result of having magical "30%+ 1 result dice"

For example, a Chaos Aspiring Sorceror with Doombolt is more likely to kill himself with Perils of the Warp than he is to damage (anything other than shake/stun) an AV12+ vehicle.

I'll do the math on the odds of a Daemon Prince killing himself over the course of 5 turns later. It's probably pretty bad.

I use casino dice. I got them from http://www.kardwell.com/casino-quality-dice.htm

I don't use a dice cup, but I would, gladly.

You will not, however, use my dice... anymore than you will use my models.

MagickalMemories wrote:@Grunt

Sssshhhhh. The non-believers will hear you.

Eric

They're going to pelt me with chessex aren't they...

No. They're going to melt you down into them.

You mean I'm going to end up as sparkly, lopsided, overpriced, frustrating dice?

unheilig wrote:I use casino dice. I got them from http://www.kardwell.com/casino-quality-dice.htm

I don't use a dice cup, but I would, gladly.

You will not, however, use my dice... anymore than you will use my models.

And you will not be welcome at most competitive events... Dice sharing is mandated in many rules packets and when people use fishy dice or exploitative dice rolling techniques, I reserve my right to use their dice.

Your casino dice cannot be randomized by rolling with your hands on a wargaming surface. They will always be influenced by your actions which makes them just as unfair as supposed flawed 1's dice.

Nkelsch, it really depends how he rolls them. When I roll my Gamescience dice, I shake them up in my hand. If someone's controlled shooting casino dice in a tourney, you'll see it.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Nkelsch, it really depends how he rolls them. When I roll my Gamescience dice, I shake them up in my hand. If someone's controlled shooting casino dice in a tourney, you'll see it.

In an event that mandates dice sharing, I reserve the right to molest my opponents dice directly to the fishiness of the dice rolling technique I observe... And I may feel the need to put my fingers in a bag of cheetos or eat some pudding with my bare hands while I toll those dice too

Casino dice always put me on edge... and reaching for my cheetos...

I bought 36 Gamescience dice and I don't cheat or roll them funny. I roll them like I used to roll GW or Chessex dice. And they work just fine and I feel like they roll more average. I also have a hand crafted wooden dice tower with the Dark Angels symbol and Imperial Eagle carved into it, but I don't use it much because it's a little unwieldy and people like to see the dice roll on the table not into the tower.

nkelsch wrote:

unheilig wrote:I use casino dice. I got them from http://www.kardwell.com/casino-quality-dice.htm

I don't use a dice cup, but I would, gladly.

You will not, however, use my dice... anymore than you will use my models.

And you will not be welcome at most competitive events... Dice sharing is mandated in many rules packets and when people use fishy dice or exploitative dice rolling techniques, I reserve my right to use their dice.

Your casino dice cannot be randomized by rolling with your hands on a wargaming surface. They will always be influenced by your actions which makes them just as unfair as supposed flawed 1's dice.

Completely untrue on every count.

I have been to many tournaments, never once being asked to "share" dice.

and perhaps I am not crafty enough, but I shake the dice in clasped hands and roll them, and they seem to produce solidly average rolls. If you find that fishy, you should examine your own paranoia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Nkelsch, it really depends how he rolls them. When I roll my Gamescience dice, I shake them up in my hand. If someone's controlled shooting casino dice in a tourney, you'll see it.

I can see how 2 dice might be maipulated... but 8 or 12?

Even when I roll 2, the exact way I do it (difficult to describe such a thing) I guess would be best described as: after shaking them, I release them with the back of my hands facing up, dice being held under. As I let go and loosen my fingers, I lift my hands at the wrist, sort of like shooing a fly away... again, hard to describe, but it results in a satisfying rumble onto my dice tray. dull thuds are disappointing... I like to hear a clatter.

I also have strict dice etiquette for myself. If the dice are not inside the dice tray, whether a favorable roll or not, they get re-rolled. Failures are scooped up and taken away, so the opponent can clearly observe the successes and count them himself.

also, i find many dice trays to be too high-walled, which can make it easy to hide results... I actually use a barware drink tray, the rim is low, but still serves its purpose.

The quest for the perfect d6... is it even possible?

unheilig wrote:
Completely untrue on every count.

I have been to many tournaments, never once being asked to "share" dice.

and perhaps I am not crafty enough, but I shake the dice in clasped hands and roll them, and they seem to produce solidly average rolls. If you find that fishy, you should examine your own paranoia.

Check your rules packets. Almost all of them say you will share your if your opponent asks. It is within their right for the integrity of the event. if you refuse a reasonable request to share, you are a poor sport and may be disqualified.

Example from Adepticon:
Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011conduct.pdf

I can see how 2 dice might be manipulated... but 8 or 12?

Most game-critical rolls that need to be manipulated are usually 1-2 dice rolls like LD and Invun saves. This is when people usually trade in the small cheap dice for a pare of segmented casino dice only used for 'special rolls'.

That is when common techniques like palming the dice or rolling over an axis to prevent the ends of the axis to roll. If someone can effectively eliminate 1's and 6's from rolling, they can drastically influence the odds or even turn a special character like ghazghkull into an invulnerable monster.

People cheat with dice all the time, You don't have the right not to share dice in most tourneys and the 'you will not use my dice' is childish and ignorant superstition. most people don't 'want' to use your dice, but having the option helps clear suspicion. Pretending cheating doesn't or can't happen, and how all your emulation of cheating techniques is just a coincidence but you refuse to share dice really doesn't help, hence if you are going to disrespect me and I feel you are harming the game with dice, then I reserve my right given by the tourney rules to disrespect you by molesting your dice.

'you will not use my dice' is childish and ignorant superstition

Maybe it's not superstition. Maybe we just don't want people pawing our dice.
And, so what if it is a superstition? That doesn't make it childish or ignorant. That's a pretty narrow-minded and rude statement.

Here's the deal for me... You're not using my dice. Period. You've got a problem with how my dice roll? I'll let you examine them. I'll let you roll them during the examination. I'll let you drop them in the internet-famed bucket of water. Any test you want to do to check their randomness you're welcome to do, provided it doesn't ruin the dice (Sorry. You're not cross sectioning them or busting them open to see if I corked them like a major league slugger).
In a game setting, though? No. Not my dice. Not ever.
If, after examining them, you're still convinced that there's a problem with my dice, then I'll gladly pack them up and we can use yours... But not mine.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

'you will not use my dice' is childish and ignorant superstition

Maybe it's not superstition. Maybe we just don't want people pawing our dice.
And, so what if it is a superstition? That doesn't make it childish or ignorant. That's a pretty narrow-minded and rude statement.

By definition, all superstition is 'ignorant'.

Superstition is a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge. The word is often used pejoratively to refer to folk beliefs deemed irrational.

If you claim I can't touch your dice out of 'superstition' you are ignorant. I am not going to scare off the dice gremlins that invisibly run around the table and control the dice rolls because I touched your dice. The dice gods on Mount Dicelypus will not rain down thunderbolts of bad luck because I touched your dice.

If you are claiming sanitary reasons, don't claim superstition. Say you don't want grubby people touching your dice. But that also rings hollow because gaming tables are EXTREMELY unsanitary and terrain never gets cleaned. Your dice are going to pick up more boogers and disease from landing on the table than from my hands. Maybe if you were using a dice tray for sanitary reasons, I might believe you were doing it for sanitary reasons and not just to be rude.

Here's the deal for me... You're not using my dice. Period.

then you will not play in most events and you should reconsider participating in social events with such an anti-social rude position, especially one that is frowned upon or flat out banned in most basic 'rules of conduct'. It is sad they have to spell out being respectful and reasonable to opponents, but apparently they do if people continue to cry about people touching their dice.

You've got a problem with how my dice roll? I'll let you examine them. I'll let you roll them during the examination. I'll let you drop them in the internet-famed bucket of water. Any test you want to do to check their randomness you're welcome to do, provided it doesn't ruin the dice (Sorry. You're not cross sectioning them or busting them open to see if I corked them like a major league slugger).
In a game setting, though? No. Not my dice. Not ever.
If, after examining them, you're still convinced that there's a problem with my dice, then I'll gladly pack them up and we can use yours... But not mine.
Eric

I would be glad to force you to use my dice, which is basically what a TO would do if you refused to share dice in a tourney setting. But then again, your sanitary arguments fall flat, unless you then pull out rubber gloves to roll my dice... If you were willing to go that far for a bit, I would respect that.

I don't find any of the rational for not letting touch your dice reasonable or even valid... Someone who complains that much has something to hide and people should be suspicious.

First, to be clear, I can't tell if your tone is being *offensive* here or *defensive* (or neither), as I'm kind of picking up on both.
Whichever it is, you don't need to be.

Insulting "tones" in writing styles do nothing to foster intelligent and reasonable conversation. So, an offensive stance is counter-productive, at best.

I'm not attacking you or attempting to disrespect your p.o.v., so a defensive stance is just unnecessary.

I'm simply disagreeing with you and offering my opposing opinion(s). It's not personal and the fact that you disagree with me isn't taken that way, either. There's no reason we can't disagree respectfully.

As for your post...
When did I use the term "sanitary?" You interjected that into my statements. Not me.
I don't want people using my stuff because (a) it disappears [after 30 years of gaming, I can tell you that this is a common occurance] (b) there are some things I feel are highly personal belongings that other people should just respect the... for lack of a better word off of the top of my head... sanctity of (c) people using my dice just sets my teeth on edge and gives me "The Willies." It is not based on any reason or thought. It's just "one of those things."

It's like my underwear. I don't care who you are, you're not borrowing them. I know that, no matter how dirty you may be or might get them, anything you get on or in them will wash off. They make cleaners for that. No cooties or crotch-gremlins will be left behind. That doesn't mean I want you wearing them.
Would you lend someone your drawers? That's how it feels to me. Yes. It's equally distasteful for me when using someone else's dice. My thought process, however, is that (a) the guy is insisting that we use the same dice and (b) at least we're not using mine.

For me, there is no hygiene issue. I agree 100% with your assertions regarding that. Besides... the keyboard I'm typing on right now probably has more germs on it than my dice, and it wouldn't bother me to have someone else typing on my keyboard.
If my issues were sanitary related, I would not have stated that you'd have been welcome to handle the dice, roll them, etc. to test them. I also wouldn't have volunteered to use yours. Not without the aforementioned rubber gloves.

Telling someone they are ignorant isn't going to win you any sportsmanship points, either. Just because they may have a belief based on ignorance, that doesn't make them ignorant. There's a difference.
Also, to be fair, all suspersition isn't ignorant. Some is fearful. There's a difference. Ask any MLB baseball player.

It is not fair to use the terms "an anti-social rude position" or imply (or flat out state) a person is being disrespectful by not wanting to share something of their own. It is no more anti-social or disrespectful to try to shame someone or use peer pressure against them to get them to do something they don't want to. Like a coin, there are two sides.

I also think you missed at least one of my points.

I would be glad to force you to use my dice, which is basically what a TO would do if you refused to share dice in a tourney setting.

How are you *forcing* me, when I volunteered it?

" I'll gladly pack them up and we can use yours"

That simple statement alone shows that hygiene was never my issue. If we're both using the same dice, at least I know where MY dice have been. For hygiene purposes, it would be even worse to use a strangers dice. I have seen some of the things gamers do to and with their dice.

Besides, by using your dice, I *am* sharing. So, obviously, I didn't refuse to share. I just refused to share mine. Perhaps it's only a minor difference to some, but it's notable to me.

If I had something to hide, I wouldn't have offered to let you freely examine my dice. It's the ones who won't let you examine their dice or test that that may be hiding something. Just because two things SEEM the same on the exterior do not mean they ARE the same. You should try to see the differences before painting them with the same broad brush stroke.

Also, please note that "yours" in that statement was generic and not specific to you. It was meant to denote my general p.o.v. towards any and all opponents.

Once again, I really tried to make sure my language was inoffensive. If you took offense to anything, I apologize in advance generally. Point out what you were specifically offended by, and I'll apologize specifically.

Eric

nkelsch wrote:
I don't find any of the rational for not letting touch your dice reasonable or even valid... Someone who complains that much has something to hide and people should be suspicious.

This basically sums it up perfectly for me.

Then you would be wrong, too (at least in my specific case).

Eric

Nkelsch isn't being offensive, defensive or otherwise, he's clearly stated (twice now) that most TOURNAMENT RULES state that a player may choose to use your dice for whatever reason.

I don't get all the defensiveness over not letting people touch your dice anyway. It's definitely not in the spirit of the game, and it's completely separate from not having strangers walk up and finger your precious models.

I can vouch for my gaming group that we share dice all the time, without thinking usually, and nobody minds. It usually happens when making save rolls, we sometimes just hand over the wounding dice. This is a GAME after all, to be enjoyed amongst FRIENDLY people, but even if it isn't a friendly game, nkelsch has already stated that dice sharing is in the tournament rules.

I think dice sharing promotes trust, if anything. It also promotes you not looking like a doofus who won't share his ball, I mean dice. Now play nice, children

Back on topic: I used to love Chessex dice, but I just recently bought a stack that are incredibly shoddy. Not only are they not 12mm (more like 11) they're all lop sided in the same direction. I don't know how this happens in the factory, though I've heard of 'tumbling' and it shouldn't result in such uniform defects. They look awesome though (Scarab red). After reading this thread, I'll definitely be looking into some straight sided dice before I buy a new set.

Frankly, Helmann, I don't know that it's your place to say what nkelsh intended in his comments.
Unless you're him under a different name (which I do not believe), or he told you, you really can't know precisely what was in his head.

You say that not sharing dice isn't within the spirit of the game. By what definition? How do you define 'spirit of the game?'
There's "friendliness." I could turn that around and say someone being friendly won't presume I'm using dice weighted in my favor. Also, they'd respect my desire to not have them use my dice.
There's "fun." It's not fun for me to have people paw all over my dice. So, it would be "in spirit" for me to not share my dice.
How about "socialization?" I could easily take the side of it being an antisocial behavior to try to force me to share my dice with you when, clearly, it's apparent that I do not want to do this.

You emphasized that it's a "GAME" shared by "FRIENDLY" people. I can use that same statement to counter your p.o.v.
If it's "just a game," then it shouldn't be so important for you to use my dice. After all, it's just a GAME. It's also not very FRIENDLY to try pressure me to do something I don't want to.

"Dice sharing promotes trust" is a fallacy. If you're prone to think I'm cheating, you will think that regardless. You will find other things to presume I'm cheating on ("fast rolling," long measuring, tricky dice rolling methods, etc.). If you are not prone to think I'm cheating, you don't need me to prove it.

You're correct that many tournaments require dice sharing. If my opponent feels that way, I will gladly pack up my dice and use his. I stated as much already.

I also do not appreciate the veiled insinuation that I'm a doofus or child.

My regular gaming group - all friends - games at one guy's house every Saturday. I do not share my dice with them. You see, although I trust them all (none has any sort of a need to take my dice, can afford whatever they want in gaming supplies, etc). The fact is, though, that things that are YOURS do not always remain YOURS.
I've found my dice in their bags, where they accidentally ended up mixed with their dice. When rolling a bunch of dice together and mixing dice that belong to multiple people, they do not always go back where they belong.

I buy my dice a dozen at a time. I like having my dice in groups of 24. It works well for me when rolling (so many guns or attacks are in multiples of 2, 3, or 4, which all work well with groups of 12 dice). One of my sets of 24 is missing 2 dice. I have no idea where they are. They've been missing for weeks. I only use them at that one location, so they weren't lost somewhere else.

If *I* drop a die, I pick it up IMMEDIATELY, so it does not get lost. I'm the only one there who is that a.n.a.l. about it. I know none of them USED my dice but, somehow, two still came up missing. All I know is that *I* did not lose them.

In my experience with gaming over the last 30 years, the same goes for any game. Minis, books, dice, etc. If you let people borrow them, most will NOT take care of them as well as you would have. This is why I do not share my stuff. Very few people are on my "share" list. Those who are have proven themselves.

If I'm borrowing yours for any reason, I treat it better than I treat my own stuff... and I baby my own stuff.

Please, stop throwing around veiled "anti-social" accusations or saying people who don't want to share dice are being unfriendly or violating the spirit of the game or something. It's just not true, and it only sounds true to you because you're influenced by your own opinions.

Eric

I figure my hands would fall off before I could roll a statistical amount of rolls to determine if my dice were wonky. I might pick up some kaplow just to try them. My GW cube seems ok same with my slannesh dice. Now as fare as dice superstitions, My buddy is cursed by the dice gods saw him fail voxed orders twice in a row snake eyes once with his dice then with my dice.