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I'm not superstitious about my dice, so no need for theatrics with them - I believe my consistent issues rely in the quality of the dice, thus this thread.

Gitzbitah wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Gitzbitah, thank you!!!! +100!!!

I'm a helper. Put those polyhedrons in their place!

Your first response made my day... Thanks!

Dash: Ever considered buying a dice tower? I hear it helps randomization a lot more by rotating them on the way down rather than over the course of a roll on the table.

I'm just dumbfounded at the number of people who are both:

aware that you can shave dice to alter their sides, edges, and proportions to affect the dice results

and

aware that many commercially available dice can have markedly uneven sides,edges, and proportions out of the box.


Yet don't get that the dice don't know whether their irregular edges are due to deliberate trickery or industrial production. If the dice edges and corners are uneven, then the die is going to be rolling uneven numbers (maybe high, maybe low, maybe more 3s). In any case, not an even distribution!

Wanting a set of dice that roll close to even distribution over all six sides isn't being a cheater, or a WAAC gamer.

Personally, I have a real emotional problem with the dice. The Gamescience unpolished dice with numbers are much more standardized than polished dice. The edges are much closer to being the same on all sides. Polished dice are ridiculous, with some edges being near square, and others very rounded. On the other hand, I really, really dislike the look and feel of precision dice. I like the pretty polished dice. I like their smooth edges.

If the dice don't kill your soul a little, use the Gamescience stuff. It's not too expensive, and the production is pretty good, in my opinion.


Note that I am not agreeing with or disagreeing with the study that found the GW dice roll more ones. I'm just endorsing using dice that aren't carelessly and unevenly polished in a rock tumbler if you'd like good statistical results with your dice.

I use the Koplow 12mm dice that have been listed here a couple times.

I think that trusting the random internet article about 29% 1s is probably not the right thing to do, but I have 0 problem with someone wanting to replace their dice.

If the dice really did roll 29% ones, you could roll a couple hundred dice and see it quite obviously. It would take 10 minutes to test yourself on your own dice. You won't know the true distribution and you'll see a lot of 20%'s and 14%'s and such, but with a skew that great it should show up even in a very small sample.

It is definitely true that it is easy to cheat using large casino dice hand rolled on a gaming table, but I can't say I've ever actually seen someone try it. Some friends of mine used casino dice exclusively after that article but found basically what you did - that they're too unwieldy to roll large amounts of. Unless someone is actively rolling different dice for specific types of rolls or rolling dice one at a time when they don't need to rules wise I wouldn't think twice about it.

I actually just ordered 100 new 12mm square edged dice.

Going to do some testing when they show up.

If I like them then I will have dice color coded to the the armor color of whoever I am rolling for, heh.

You'll get tired of "testing" them before you even get close to rolling and recording a statistically significant amount of dice rolls.

I truly chalk this up to the WAAC mentality. Blame the mass produced dice, so go out and buy one die for the same price as an entire box.

Here's a question, Dash, being the pro-player that you are: if your opponent had dice that seemed to roll more 6s than you thought were normal, what would your reaction be? At least you are one of the players who carries a micrometer around, so you could measure his dice. OR would you cry foul that his dice were inherently more "fair" than your and charge that the TOs, not supplying everyone with the same dice, are to blame?

Just stop, look at the state of your hobby, and notice it is stuff like this that is driving the new guys and the veterans out of the game.

SoloFalcon, that post is uncalled for- especially throwing out the WAAC term, that's what starts these threads downhill.

There's nothing wrong with wanting dice that roll statistically average- look to Da Butcha's post above as a good explanation as to why. Mass-produced dice, whether skewed to roll high, low, or 3's, can be extremely biased... so getting small square-edged dice is a very reasonable thing to do, if you have the money for it.

The only thing I think is unreasonable is to use large casino or squared-edged dice, or worse- the so-called "bone dice". They sell them in hobby stores and I believe they're popular in D&D. I've never seen a dice which it is so easy to control the roll of, and I encountered a player who would only roll them 1 or 2 at a time. That's obviously crossing the line into questionable behavior... getting well-balanced and produced dice is not.

I use GW dice. I have never noticed, not even really cared to notice, whether they roll more 1s or 3s or 4s or whatever. I just roll the dice and accept the result. Furthermore, I shudder to even think of the sheer number of times I'd have to roll a dice to determine which side, if any, it is biased upon.

I kind of agree with Solofalcon and johnscott here; its just a game man. Do we all really need to take it *this* seriously? And if we do, is that really healthy?

L. Wrex

RiTides wrote:SoloFalcon, that post is uncalled for- especially throwing out the WAAC term, that's what starts these threads downhill.

Agreed. Please keep the discussion polite.

Manchu wrote:

RiTides wrote:SoloFalcon, that post is uncalled for- especially throwing out the WAAC term, that's what starts these threads downhill.

Agreed. Please keep the discussion polite.

So, what would someone call this discussion, much like the dozen others that have started about precision/casino/"fair" dice? All dice get cold and hot, and, like a coin, are not 100% statistically honest. If people played with these dice, would they allow their opponent to switch dice? Or, with the cost of these things, would the player only use them for the "important" rolls? That comes dangerously close to trying be a "win at all costs" player, doesn't it?

Long story short: it's a game. Sometimes you score Park Place and Boardwalk, and sometimes you don't. Stop blaming the statistical inaccuracies of the modern dice-making industry. If die weren't involved, something else would be blamed. It is frustrating enough to read these from new players, but isn't Dash supposed to be a veteran player with experience? Poor carpenters blame their shoddy tools...

Now you are making assumptions about people's thoughts.

Dice can be mechanically fair and random, or they can be crocked.

They are used as the random number generator in the game.

It isn't wrong to want to use fair dice.

The way a die rolls has nothing to do with skill -- and if it does, you're cheating. I don't think DoP was at all suggesting that he loses games because of the dice, just that he's more likely to roll ones with the dice he has. There is a difference there. You might say, he wants to actually use the army he wrote up as it hypothetically should work. It's just isolating another variable, not whinging or raging or trolling or flamebaiting. Wanting dice that give you a more statistically average result is not at all WAAC and I don't think it has any direct bearing on how a person treats his opponent.

Generally, please don't throw terms that you know are going to lead to ill-will.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:If people played with these dice, would they allow their opponent to switch dice? Or, with the cost of these things, would the player only use them for the "important" rolls? That comes dangerously close to trying be a "win at all costs" player, doesn't it?

Dash already said he's not superstitious about dice, and the last GT packet I read stated in its' ruleset that you could ask your opponent to use your dice- so yes, they could be shared.

Using different dice for different rolls is a completely different issue, and is generally seen as a shady practice- as you could use low-rolling dice only for leadership checks, for example.

Many veteran players use precision dice, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so as long as they are of a manageable size so as not to be able to control the outcome of the roll- and that is true with any dice.

Solofalcon, at the risk of sounding pretentious.....I don't need better dice to win. My dice don't cause me to lose (except in game 7 of the Nova Open, where the game was decided by a D6 roll) - I rarely lose, and when I do, I can point to glaring faults in my gameplay, or in weaknesses that my opponents exploited, or blatant drunkenness that kept me from finishing a game.

I don't need better dice so that I can win, because I win anyway. I need better dice because my dice rolling is (as I said in my OP) LEGENDARY for its horrific rolling, regardless of dice that I use, and I do use a dice cup. I've heard countless times my opponents' amazement that I am still winning despite my dice. I'm choosing to change out my dice for something I believe will be more statistically accurate so that my dice rolling doesn't stand out anymore. It has nothing to do with being a WAAC gamer or a cheater, or any of the ridiculous garbage that you and a few folks in here are spitting at me - just looking to edge my way into normalcy.

Also, having done further research, I've decided to go with the (Ka-plow?) square 12mm dice. They're not precision-edged, but they are etched instead of pipped/drilled, and those dice theoretically roll 19% 1s, which is better than the 29% of the rounded chessex dice, but not as good as precision dice. I think its a happy medium for now - when Gamescience starts manufacturing their own 12mm precision dice and the price drops (in the next 6-12 months), I'll revisit getting some *real* dice.

From what I know of Dash, he would still be making this post if his dice were known to roll 6s more than is normal.

The dice tower seems like a good option, if you are interested. Imagine a solid jenga-sized tower that is hollowed out and filled with tiny dowels at random angles. The dice come out at the bottom completely randomized regardless of their inertia because all the randomization happens while they fall, not during rolling.

I don't like people using casino dice for another reason than anyone else has posted: they constantly make me nervous that they will slam into my models and damage them.

There was a thread about dice on Warseer a few years ago that had someone uni lecturer posting about tests he'd done comparing different types of dice. If people are interested and I still have it saved I can post up what he PMed me when I get home from work.

Edit. ignore me. Turns out it's the study the dakka article was based on.

Koplow.

...Just sayin'. : )

While I'm not against people using "fair" dice, I agree that since the majority of people use "Chessux" dice the results shouldn't really be perfect all the time.

The problem I have with precision dice is that they are aiming for a perfect standard. The concept of precision dice is, essentially, a dice that rolls as perfectly "standard" as possible, which is already an impossible standard.

However, I'd like to start my argument with defining what the word "Random" exactly means in relation to statistics. Dictionary.com, which I'll admit isn't perfect, states

Dictionary wrote:...of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

So what we can gather from this is that truly "random" dice should have an equal chance of coming up with every side. Fair enough, and this is where precision dice come into play. Precision dice aren't some fancy-pants way to guarantee better rolls, which is a major mistake a couple of people have made in this thread, but it's a way to ensure that each side should have an equal chance of coming up.

Which leads me to my next point. Random also generally means

Dictionary wrote:...lacking uniformity, without regularity, occurring without a definite reason, aim, or pattern

If random also means lacking any sort of uniformity or regularity, can it not also be said that precision dice, though supposedly statistically "pure", are also subject to the definition of random as a lack of uniformity and or regularity? Murphy's Law is a time-proven adage for a reason, and while these dice have been crafted to perfection, the fact that they are dice and subject to random nature means that their "perfect" or, at least more random, design means that they too have a good chance of rolling many ones, or sixes, etc. While it can be argued that Chessex dice are supposedly "inferior" to precision dice, are these precision dice not also susceptible to the same probability/chance of rolling like the Chessex dice?

While I'm not refuting precision dice altogether, I personally think that, seeing as how they are dice, and subject to supposedly "random" results, it is impossible to perfect a random result due to the nature of the definition/meaning of random itself. I'm not bashing precision dice, but I personally don't think the difference they supposedly make is worth what you pay.

And this is before we add in unknown variables such as bouncing dice off terrain, rolling dice in cups, dice towers, etc. Theory is a beautiful science, but sadly it's hardly an exact one.

DoP wrote:Also, having done further research, I've decided to go with the (Ka-plow?) square 12mm dice. They're not precision-edged, but they are etched instead of pipped/drilled, and those dice theoretically roll 19% 1s, which is better than the 29% of the rounded chessex dice, but not as good as precision dice. I think its a happy medium for now - when Gamescience starts manufacturing their own 12mm precision dice and the price drops (in the next 6-12 months), I'll revisit getting some *real* dice.

I think this is great, but I would personally stay away from categorizing dice based on the % of 1's they supposedly roll. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, that article has major flaws in it. I almost did my own test using a similar setup- isolated compartments, 1 dice in each, repeated a gazillion times. And then I realized... it's not worth the effort.

But I can tell you, my rounded-edged dice from GW do not, by any means, roll 1's more than other numbers. If anything, they're geared towards 5's. Also, what I've seen seems to point to dice commonly being biased towards an axis- meaning two particular numbers are more likely (in the study nkelsch linked to, it was 2's and 5's).

So, I'm all in favor of you getting precision dice- but rounded edged dice are not "29% 1's"... that set happened to be, and yours sound god-awful, but mine certainly are not (and are currently retired for this reason...).

I actually quit using the 36 block sized dice in favor of the bigger 12 block size dice. It feels like the role at least more even across the board where as the little bastard dice have tendecy to screw me at a moments notice.

Our game group just over 600 custom dice from Chessix. I am going to use them becuase they look and cool and I want to represent. However they have not helped me at all.

I just can't take this game so serious as to do a study on how dice roll and then argue over it on the faceless internet.

In a game where so much skill is required when it comes to movement, target priority, declaring assaults and counter-assaults, it leaves one in a sense of mind that to be a better player one must be able to firmly control every aspect of his army.

Then you throw the dice. And all hell breaks loose. The dice roll is the one thing a savvy general simply cannot control. Cannot, that is, unless they are willing to cheat and learn common dice-setting tricks as well as timed rolls.

I have felt DoP's pain when it comes to a bad brick of dice (in the 2 years i've spent playing warhammer i've probably purchased well over 500 dice). Mostly I just like collecting different sizes, colors, and shapes of dice. I have noticed however that square edged dice do seem to roll a lot more evenly than any round edged dice i've used. That being said, my anecdotal evidence is not nearly enough to imply that chessex dice or any other are inferior to casino dice, or even bicycle dice (which are my current go-to for tourneys).

A friend once said to me "Dice roll the way you think they will roll." If you believe in your dice, you're likely to forget most of the bad rolls and remember all of the 6-explodes!! results you get when in the middle of a bloody firefight.

To all wargamers i say, good luck, and may your dice always roll sixes (except during Ld and Ch tests).

I can't believe that there are carnies out there selling 20 dice for 80$, and that people are buying them to help them win at Space Manz.

God bless America.

That said, I believe I'll be buying some precision dice myself.

tetrisphreak wrote:A friend once said to me "Dice roll the way you think they will roll." If you believe in your dice, you're likely to forget most of the bad rolls and remember all of the 6-explodes!! results you get when in the middle of a bloody firefight.

I don't think that I've ever had any of those. I did recently have a game (I may have mentioned this earlier in the thread) where my Mechanized Dark Eldar faced off against Mechanized IG.....and through five turns of continual fire into each other, neither of us were able to kill any of the others' vehicles.

*edit* I won that game because on the bottom of turn five, I killed a vendetta and the veteran squad inside - and it was a killpoint game. Dash won by two.

In order to actually get fair rolls, there's 3 solutions.

1) Spend a ton of money to buy proper casino dice.

2) Use a "true" random number generator to roll your dice. I recommend random.org. They use atmospheric noise to generate random numbers. http://www.random.org/dice/ for dice rolling.

3) Buy a bunch of cheap dice. Conduct extensive experiments on them to find the ones that actually do roll statistically average. Return dice that do not meet your demands as defective.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Also, having done further research, I've decided to go with the (Ka-plow?) square 12mm dice. They're not precision-edged, but they are etched instead of pipped/drilled, and those dice theoretically roll 19% 1s, which is better than the 29% of the rounded chessex dice, but not as good as precision dice.

Link to where you purchased these? I've been looking around for these.

G-Squared: http://www.g2ch.com/sets-c-21_42.html

If everybody is so concerned about the randomness of dice how about you use a dice program?

kronk wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Also, having done further research, I've decided to go with the (Ka-plow?) square 12mm dice. They're not precision-edged, but they are etched instead of pipped/drilled, and those dice theoretically roll 19% 1s, which is better than the 29% of the rounded chessex dice, but not as good as precision dice.

Link to where you purchased these? I've been looking around for these.

http://godboma.com/Dice/ MagickalMemories (a member here and an admin on Bartertown) linked me to him. $7.50 for a cube of 36 square cornered etched 12mm dice. That's cheaper than chessex AND better. Anyday.