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I love how the experienced modelers here are saying this is a non issue, that they'd just use GS, even use a spare piece from another set to replace something. That pinning is harder than filling anyway and so on.

These models are supposed to be sold as a complete item, that's what we're paying for. I have bought models with the intention of cutting them up for conversions and so forth so small defects would not matter but so what, that's not relevant because there are plenty of people who bought that model to use as is and were not looking for a sculpting project.

Many of the smaller metal models do not need pinning, a decent glue sufficing and for most purchasers all they want to do is assemble and paint The kinds of repairs required for these finecast models is beyond the average person getting these. It's not acceptable that they would be expected to have spare backpacks on hand as one poster here suggested who then went on to say that they had high standards! I'd say if the defect was bad enough for the part to have to be substituted, then anyone saying that that was acceptable has low standards, very low at that.

GW can pretend that it's some premium product by using the word fine, but they're just reusing the metal molds which were initially produced to provide special characters and not a premium product aimed at experienced modellers only.

As for the first run being bad, there was a thread here that suggested that GW had been working on this for the last two years, time enough I'd thought to ensure that the bugs had been ironed out of the system before selling to the public.

solkan wrote:Does it make me an apologist if the only three fine cast models that I've seen so far in person were just fine? Or that I expect that Wayland Games is fethed off at GW over the Australian exports thing?

Nope. When I want to the local GW store, the rate of bad ones was less than one in ten. When I showed the store manage a few of the bad ones I came across he told me that if I was in any way unhappy with them, I could return them for a full refund. And that I could open anyone I wanted and look at it before buying.

As I said, I'd never buy one of these things if I couldn't examine it closely in person, out of the blister, beforehand.



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xxvaderxx wrote:Do these pieces of crap still melt in the sun like ive read around?.

The owner of a local independent store talked to their GW rep about putting finecast blisters inside a lighted display case and was wondering if the heat from the lights would be an issue. The rep told them that if they're not LEDs but actual bulbs, it's probably not safe. Given that it can get to 35-40C here in August, the owner made the wise move and declined to order any.

The first report of melting in the sun came from England, which is not exactly known for it's hot summers and tons of sun. I feel sorry for any of the locals who store their army cases in their cars, because they're going to bake their finecast miniatures into blobs come August.

frozenwastes wrote:

solkan wrote:Does it make me an apologist if the only three fine cast models that I've seen so far in person were just fine? Or that I expect that Wayland Games is fethed off at GW over the Australian exports thing?

Nope. When I want to the local GW store, the rate of bad ones was less than one in ten. When I showed the store manage a few of the bad ones I came across he told me that if I was in any way unhappy with them, I could return them for a full refund. And that I could open anyone I wanted and look at it before buying.

As I said, I'd never buy one of these things if I couldn't examine it closely in person, out of the blister, beforehand.



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xxvaderxx wrote:Do these pieces of crap still melt in the sun like ive read around?.

The owner of a local independent store talked to their GW rep about putting finecast blisters inside a lighted display case and was wondering if the heat from the lights would be an issue. The rep told them that if they're not LEDs but actual bulbs, it's probably not safe. Given that it can get to 35-40C here in August, the owner made the wise move and declined to order any.

The first report of melting in the sun came from England, which is not exactly known for it's hot summers and tons of sun. I feel sorry for any of the locals who store their army cases in their cars, because they're going to bake their finecast miniatures into blobs come August.

In reply to solkan: Nope, that just makes you lucky! And as for Wayland Games and their attitude towards GW, I certainly wouldn't expect to find to many GW fans over there anymore. But I believe this action is being taken because of what frozenwastes said. In a brick-and-mortar store, I could open the blister, and inspect the model. If there was a flaw, I could return it easily. It gets a lot harder when you purchase an item like this from an online retailer.

(Funny story. I was actually going to pick up a Finecast Nurgle Daemon Prince, my first GW purchase in months, at one of the nearby FLGSs. When I saw that it was in a regular box, and was the only one one in stock, I was immediately turned off. Instead, I picked up a Citadel Battlemat, which hadn't gone up in price! Which I guess makes sense, since they don't make it any more.)

As to the whole 'don't put it in a lighted display that isn't LED lit'... c'mon. That's just terrible. Who thought that this material was any good?

nkelsch wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:
These models are bad enough that I would never, ever buy one that I couldn't open and inspect first. I am certainly not going to order one sight unseen from an online store.

Maybe this was GW's goal all along... Killing the free-loading online market by making products people need to buy in person from brick and mortar for full retail price.

Maybe they are sending the doo-dooist blisters to online retailers to screw them too while the retail brick and mortars get the good batches! Crazy... Like a FOX!

Did you just use 'doo-doo' as an adjective?

The apologists in this thread make me sick. With the price point and hype of these models, a random sampling of 60 is more than adequate. You don't need 1000 samples to make a reasonable conclusion (there are drugs coming out every day where their efficacy and/or safety data was verified by studies with populations as small as 80 patients).

Honestly, when you're paying $20-30 for an ounce of resin that is proclaimed to be the second coming of Christ, even if they had sampled 1000 and all the others were acceptable (so 3% failure rate), that would still be unacceptable for "the finest miniatures in the world".

You are all missing the obvious and brilliant marketing ploy of the decade.

Buy a Finecast get a FREE pubic hair.
So if you buy lots of Finecast models, you get enough to make your very own GW Muff Rug!

"But I don't need a nether wig!" I hear you protest, "My minge is fully formed/trimmed into a bush in the form of the Aqulia!"

Ah, but consider this my topiary tushed friend, the target audience of pre pubescents who will soon be moving up into secondary education and having to shower communally.
The nerdy tykes can strut around the changing room with pride!
No wind in the willows for the Warhammer players, unlike their baldy crotched classmates.

filbert wrote:Just from reading some of the opinions and rationales being posted in here, it's really no wonder that GW call their customers things like "Geek, Gomer, Sheep, and Pleb"....

Source? Because that's hilarious. q

cadbren wrote:I love how the experienced modelers here are saying this is a non issue,

Some experienced modellers are saying that.

I'm an experienced modeller, and frankly I'm not at all impressed with Finecast so far.

Also with the sample size: remember that retailers are only allowed to order 3 of each model at a time. GW has what, 100 models in finecast? less? That makes each order of finecast ~300 models, meaning they took a 10% sample.

Whilst some of the models have relatively minor defects, there are some pretty horrible bubbles obscuring or removing large amounts of model. Its not the kind of defects that would have been acceptable in metal, or were present at all in metal, and I'm not accepting them in the new material for a higher price and no increase in detail.
Wayland is definitely doing the right thing - considering they were screwed over already by only being allowed to order 3 at a time, and the risk of possible returns was too high.

Also:


When was the last time you got a metal model that looked like this. In 4 armies, I've never seen this before. The fact that it has happened once is shocking, let alone regularly. is appalling. Lets see you 'easily fill' that with greenstuff in 5 minutes.

What exactly are the apologists trying to accomplish by defending GW down to the last breath?

Do they honestly think by coming up with pathetic excuses for them will some how keep GW alive longer?

Dont they honestly think GW should prosper via doing things a better way? rather then mask the issues?

Think about it apologists, you are killing your own beloved company.

insaniak wrote:

cadbren wrote:I love how the experienced modelers here are saying this is a non issue,

Some experienced modellers are saying that.

I'm an experienced modeller, and frankly I'm not at all impressed with Finecast so far.

I hear that!

LunaHound wrote:Think about it apologists, you are killing your own beloved company.

If that's the end result, then good. Maybe once their God Emperor is gone, they can turn those blades on themselves in despair.

Omegus wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Think about it apologists, you are killing your own beloved company.

If that's the end result, then good. Maybe once their God Emperor is gone, they can turn those blades on themselves in despair.

Its like spraying perfume on dog doo doo. How much perfume do you need to keep spraying on to mask it,
and especially the amount of dog doo doo is increasing?

At the end of the day when the perfume can no longer mask the smell, then what do we still see?

Giant pile of dog ***********************

Actually im in despair from just reading the apologist's posts. If the term "fanboys" would be allowed to be used, im sure the apologists wouldnt be so glorious .
Because so far it sure has a nice ring to it doesn't it? "Official GW Apologist" geez wear it like a badge.
Turning blades on themselves in despair? like this? Nothing to Nippah~ about

LunaHound wrote:What exactly are the apologists trying to accomplish by defending GW down to the last breath?

Do they honestly think by coming up with pathetic excuses for them will some how keep GW alive longer?

Dont they honestly think GW should prosper via doing things a better way? rather then mask the issues?

I think it's more like the console wars. The product you buy is your team. And your team must win, because if your team wins, you are a winner, too. So that means all other teams must be inferior and it's better to hold your breath and will the very fabric of reality into changing than even admit once that your team may not be perfect all the time. I look forward to many more blinkered arguments like this in the future.

But to be fair, once I did buy a miscast metal GW model. The Dire Avenger Phoenix Lord. The ammo feed that hangs from his arm was kinda melted away to nothing in the middle. I bought it knowing it was defective. Why? Because it was marked down to half price. This would have been in the late 90s, so I think I paid ~$5USD for it. I think I got a fair deal.

@Johira , i agree. ( just to be clear the post below is unrelated :'p)



.
.
.
Im not saying Finecast is a bad idea, im not saying if resin done right shouldn't replace metal.

What me and im sure many have been saying is, dont introduce Finecast till its actually ready. Work out the kinks first, GET IT RIGHT before you shout out to the world how superior it is when its not.

There is a good concept, and then there is the reality. I think the apologist are forcing themselves to look at this whole finecast issue via tunnel vision.

LunaHound wrote:
Turning blades on themselves in despair? like this?

Sure, that's one option. My reaction would be much the same, too, albeit with more glee.

Is there any plan to bounce back out of this or are we looking at an ostrich situation here, where they are going to continue to push this crap out on a regular basis?

I'm with Luna on this one, fan-boy is one thing this is uninspiringly just being obtuse.

Even the ones I've seen in the same lines of crap as the ones shown here are just giving people an either WTF or a MEH moment. The shops themselves arn't really even pushing this crap, what does this say in the long run?

LunaHound wrote:

Is it wrong of me to have stared at the Green-haired chick's chest the whole time? And wasn't that in one of the AMV Hell videos?

As for GW folding in on itself (wow, have I been off topic this whole time? I need to find a path off this tangent), I'm for it. I'm completely confident that the community itself can take care of the rules and fluff.

Now, to get back on topic...

Eh, screw it. There's no salvaging this one. But I'd like to say this: guys, please stop bashing the GW 'apologists', defenders, or anyone who doesn't really see any problems with GW at the moment. I have no love for Corporate GW at the moment, but bile-spewing from either sides isn't going to lead to meaningful debate (we have that on Dakka, right?).

My question now is was this deliberate by GW! I'd love to see samplings from Independent retailers vs GW owned stores. If it can be proved that GW is purposefully dumping bad product onto the retailers this is really gonna be a mess. sniff sniff, is that a class action suit I smell?

infinite_array wrote:But I'd like to say this: guys, please stop bashing the GW 'apologists', defenders, or anyone who doesn't really see any problems with GW at the moment. I have no love for Corporate GW at the moment, but bile-spewing from either sides isn't going to lead to meaningful debate (we have that on Dakka, right?).

IF when we say GW Company have the audacity to do the things they do , and get away with what they have done , because they can, because there are customers that supports it.

Then im going to look at the apologists. The damned vanguards that paves the way for GW to trample all over the rest of the customers.

Im going to bash the apologists, with a vengeance too i might add. Because they too have the audacity to support the steaming pile of dog poopoo, which in my eyes , are WORSE than GW themselves.

Im going to voice my opinion that such dog poo products are not acceptable. Whether GW sees it or not is irrelevant, because it'll add up when we dont support the poop with our hard earned money.

GW + Apologists needs a hard slap across the face more than anything else atm.

And the finger of shame.

Andrew1975 wrote:My question now is was this deliberate by GW! I'd love to see samplings from Independent retailers vs GW owned stores. If it can be proved that GW is purposefully dumping bad product onto the retailers this is really gonna be a mess. sniff sniff, is that a class action suit I smell?

I dont like that theory though. Thats like the Empire mailing the plans of Death Star to the rebels.

LunaHound wrote:

infinite_array wrote:But I'd like to say this: guys, please stop bashing the GW 'apologists', defenders, or anyone who doesn't really see any problems with GW at the moment. I have no love for Corporate GW at the moment, but bile-spewing from either sides isn't going to lead to meaningful debate (we have that on Dakka, right?).

IF when we say GW Company have the audacity to do the things they do , and get away with what they have done , because they can, because there are customers that supports it.

Then im going to look at the apologists. The damned vanguards that paves the way for GW to trample all over the rest of the customers.

Im going to bash the apologists, with a vengeance too i might add. Because they too have the audacity to support the steaming pile of dog poopoo, which in my eyes , are WORSE than GW themselves.

Im going to voice my opinion that such dog poo products are not acceptable. Whether GW sees it or not is irrelevant, because it'll add up when we dont support the poop with our hard earned money.

GW + Apologists needs a hard slap across the face more than anything else atm.

And the finger of shame.

This is what I have to say to the apologists who would have my fellow gamer play with inferior material.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

Followed by several gunshots, yes?

Andrew1975 wrote:My question now is was this deliberate by GW! I'd love to see samplings from Independent retailers vs GW owned stores. If it can be proved that GW is purposefully dumping bad product onto the retailers this is really gonna be a mess. sniff sniff, is that a class action suit I smell?

GW may be corrupt and contemptuous, but above anything else they are incompetent - not evil.

infinite_array wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Is it wrong of me to have stared at the Green-haired chick's chest the whole time? And wasn't that in one of the AMV Hell videos?

As for GW folding in on itself (wow, have I been off topic this whole time? I need to find a path off this tangent), I'm for it. I'm completely confident that the community itself can take care of the rules and fluff.

Now, to get back on topic...

Eh, screw it. There's no salvaging this one. But I'd like to say this: guys, please stop bashing the GW 'apologists', defenders, or anyone who doesn't really see any problems with GW at the moment. I have no love for Corporate GW at the moment, but bile-spewing from either sides isn't going to lead to meaningful debate (we have that on Dakka, right?).

No, I don't think so.

One thing there, I don't care really about busting on people in general. GW? No dude. They earned every drop of bile I have for them.

The meaningful debate comes down to- Is the Finecrap deliberate, or is there someone who is actually that enraptured with this gak that they really believe the hype that it is BETTER then just outright plastic or resin, or.... even metal?

HOW can you describe this as sides? If you've not honestly seen crap sculpts in the flesh, you really have nothing to discuss, except that "Hey I don't know what these crap sculpts are that you are talking about."

When you see the pictures, trust me, they do not do the abominations justice in the flesh.

YOU do know that they are asking for you to pay upwards up to $30.00 for these, don't you? The prices are on the pack and the particular GK Drago guy there had like 27.00 on it. with... the craptasticly familier bubbles and dips in it? Honestly?
There is no unseeing what has been seen.

Meaningful Debate? OK. What are we supposed to do in leu of this crap? Someone show me one that is done, looks good,and doesn't look like someone just crapped out a sculpt and sent it out to the mindless minions to spend cash on.

Andrew1975 wrote:This is what I have to say to the apologists who would have my fellow gamer play with inferior material.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

Is that from The Bible , does that mean you agree with what i posted?

infinite_array wrote:Eh, screw it. There's no salvaging this one. But I'd like to say this: guys, please stop bashing the GW 'apologists', defenders, or anyone who doesn't really see any problems with GW at the moment. I have no love for Corporate GW at the moment, but bile-spewing from either sides isn't going to lead to meaningful debate (we have that on Dakka, right?).

But.... but... then what are we to do with this surplus of bile?

Andrew1975 wrote:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee.

I guess we must look like a bitch, because GW is trying to feth us like one.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?

Necros wrote:nice, but I'm sure GW will just take those returns and ship them out to someone else who won't return them :( Hopefully if they get enough returns they'll step up their game and invest in some quality control.

Been thinking about getting a finecast hive tyrant but I've been really hesitant.. I know I can return it if it's bad, but I just don't wanna go through the hassle...

Hassle?)

Step 1: Drive to shop
Step 2: Buy new Tyrant
Step 3: Open box.
Step 4a. If undamaged, go put it together. GOTO step5
Step 4b: If damaged, hand it back saying "Mike, this is crap, I want another!" GOTO step 3
Step 5: Put model together and paint.

NOTE: This post isn't totally serious, as Tim is local to me. In no way would I insinuate that people drive halfway across Canada to their 'local' store or something silly.

Granted, I usually only have 2-3 in stock, but I'm doubting we go through all of them to find a good one.

If it takes you an extra 30 minutes out of your day to drive both ways, plus however long you waste at the actual store, then yes, it's a hassle.

I live in Canada BC, the closest GW store is like few cities away... a hassle , and very time consuming not mention $

tiekwando wrote:OK well besides that you really do not understand statistics its all fine. They made a point estimate based on a sample size of 60. You do not need to know the population size to get a reasonable estimates and confidence intervals. It doesn't matter if they sample 1% or 20% the confidence interval remains the same. Just FYI

Pretty sure you're wrong on this one. If your sample size is 20% of the population, you have much better information than you do at 1%.

On topic: After taking a sample and getting those results, it would have been good to go and repeat the experiment by taking another 60 models, and repeating the survey. This is a fairly big business decision to make. I'd have wanted to make sure of it's validity.


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LunaHound wrote:I live in Canada BC, the closest GW store is like few cities away... a hassle , and very time consuming not mention $

Sorry, I should have been more obvious in pointing out that Tim shops at my store.

mikhaila wrote:

Necros wrote:nice, but I'm sure GW will just take those returns and ship them out to someone else who won't return them :( Hopefully if they get enough returns they'll step up their game and invest in some quality control.

Been thinking about getting a finecast hive tyrant but I've been really hesitant.. I know I can return it if it's bad, but I just don't wanna go through the hassle...

Hassle?)

Step 1: Drive to shop
Step 2: Buy new Tyrant
Step 3: Open box.
Step 4a. If undamaged, go put it together. GOTO step5
Step 4b: If damaged, hand it back saying "Mike, this is crap, I want another!" GOTO step 3
Step 5: Put model together and paint.

Granted, I usually only have 2-3 in stock, but I'm doubting we go through all of them to find a good one.

Alternatively:

Go to eBay and get a metal one.

You can get a great start here: http://cgi.ebay.com/WARHAMMER-40K-TYRAND-HIVE-TYRANT-NEW-AND-SEALED-/220804350519?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3368f70237. Not even my auction.

Only problem is, it's $20 cheaper than the Finecast one, and it won't have nearly as many flaws.

But! If you were looking forward to filling holes with super glue and green-stuffing talons where they should've been cast in the first place, then fork over the extra $20!! Even more so if you're spending the gas money to return it and get another one.




Edit: This makes me think of the perfect 'What's New Today', since they've been filling it with random painted models about 20 days out of the month for the past few months. How to become an expert modeller by sculpting green stuff. They could use Finecast miniatures as subjects and teach people how to work around the miscasts. At least it would be informative.