Wayland games to stop selling GW finecast

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**Andrew1975**

Fetterkey wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
Because it is less time-consuming to fix than the issues with metal models, and therefore is a better type of problem to have.

You are still going to have to green stuff joints you know even with mega super finecast

Mmm, don't think so.

You really think that fincast is going to make it so you don't have to GS major joints. You are truly delusional. I may not have to pin them,(I rarely had to before except on really large models I put together an old metal bloodthirstier without pinning, never had a problem) but I'm still going to have to fill gaps and cover joints. That's ok because I'll also have to be sculpting accessories and filling in air bubbles apparently.

**LunaHound**

Fetterkey wrote:No, that's absurd. Again, I am not talking about sculpting full parts; models shipped with full parts missing are not acceptable. The idea of gap-filling and so on being "sculpting" is an exaggeration posted by the Finecast haters. I'm talking about filling small gaps in a model. For instance, here we see a model that has a small piece missing from its crest/hood. Fixing this involves putting a piece of green stuff in the place where the piece is missing, smoothing it to match the existing contours with a knife edge or something, and letting it harden. This is not "sculpting;" you are not being asked to create detail out of nothing, but merely to "fill in the blank," as it were. Doing so is trivial and takes very little time.

See thats the problem. To you, thats a small deal. To you, that miscast can be easily "fixed" by adding in GS and smoothing it out.

But really, will it work as you say? I doubt it.

This isnt an air bubble where we just need to fill up the hole. The ENTIRE CORNER is missing. which means you need to sculpt a whole area of it.
I guess im just slowed when it comes to the hobby, but i can assure you im not the only one that wouldnt know how to fix that.

Not to mention ones that are even worse.

But you know something? all of this is irrelevant. Because we are purchasing a product, not a defective product.
And whether we know how to fix something is irrelevant.

Tell you what, the next time you buy a monitor or a tv, grab a key and scratch all over the screen.
Then you fix it.

Then, you will look at me, smile at me, and say its nothing that cant be fixed, hence no big deal.

**lords2001**

Kanluwen wrote:
ancientsociety wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Kudos to Wayland Games! If the product sent to them by GW isn't up to standards, then this is a great way to get their attention. Hopefully more retailers follow suit and GW buckles down in the QC department and stops these miscasts from ruining the Finecast release.

And also way to throw out models with hairs on the blisters!

The hairy packagers at GW were ruining the Finecast release!

I love how you continue to gloss over the other, more serious problems these minis show.

And I love how you act as though the idea of "random standards of quality" is foreign.

Going from "hair in the packaging" to "misaligned mold" is such a stupidly high amount of quality assurance that it makes this entire announcement a joke.

Would you be happy receiving a hair like that in your package? I wouldn't.

That and there isn't just one with hair - I mean far out, how bloody bad is it when you can't even keep your hair to product ratio to under 1 in 60?

**brettz123**

Fetterkey wrote:
skyth wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:And many metal models require you to drill holes in them in order to get their limbs to adhere correctly. What's your point? Sure, it's a different type of problem, but it's a different type of model! The bits that are missing can be trivially repaired and once people start comparing Finecast to metal from a more objective, less emotional perspective I think they'll see that it really is a substantial improvement.

Again, drilling and pinning is not the same as sculpting. Sculpting is NOT TRIVIAL. These models require sculpting to fix.

Drilling and pinning requires specialist tools and takes more time and effort than gap-filling (which is what this is-- let's be honest). It's not really "sculpting" when you're just filling a gap in a cape with GS and then smoothing it to match the existing lines-- you can do that with the edge of your knife!

What are you talking about? I have never had to pin anything on a metal model that wasn't larger than an ogre. Never once have I needed to pin a man sized metal model. And almost none of those pictures only require a little blob of green stuff to smooth out a cape.

**H.B.M.C.**

frozenwastes wrote:I'm shocked at how people are defending these miniatures as acceptable.

I'm more shocked at the people saying that these defects are no different to the ones we get on metal minis. I've never had a defect like this on a metal mini other than one Chaos Raptor years ago, and that's it! I also own a lot of resin from various different companies, and none of them are as bad as this (yeah, even the FW models - their biggest problem is warping).

To make matters worse, they don't seem to understand that GW is hyping this product up to be the singularity moment of miniature design, and are charging a price that reflects such a significant event, yet these models are worse than a lot of what's on the market.

**brettz123**

The other thing I don't get is the argument about price. I don't care if I pay $3.00 or $22.00 for a model either way it should have all of the detail on it. Price is no excuse for a poor product.

**NAVARRO**

Fetterkey wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:So let me get this strait... finecast is superior because sculpting the full parts missing from the models is less time consuming and kind of trivial than drilling a hole and and filling a gap? You can stop right there Sir because it makes NO sense what your saying... Even if its funny to see the lengths people go to try to justify what is not justifiable.

No, that's absurd. Again, I am not talking about sculpting full parts; models shipped with full parts missing are not acceptable. The idea of gap-filling and so on being "sculpting" is an exaggeration posted by the Finecast haters. I'm talking about filling small gaps in a model. For instance, here we see a model that has a small piece missing from its crest/hood. Fixing this involves putting a piece of green stuff in the place where the piece is missing, smoothing it to match the existing contours with a knife edge or something, and letting it harden. This is not "sculpting;" you are not being asked to create detail out of nothing, but merely to "fill in the blank," as it were. Doing so is trivial and takes very little time.

NAVARRO wrote:As for people saying metal had the same problems its absolute bollocks, metal casting at GW the last couple decades never had 1% of the problems these Finecasts had in 1 month.

Metal didn't have the same problems, it had different problems-- that's where all this confusion is coming from. It's harder to objectively compare two sets of issues when the issues are fundamentally different from one another.
.

Your example of simplicity requires you to sculpt a sharp corner with GS...I'm very noob at sculpting mate I dont know much about it but someone said to me that sculpting sharp edges well in greenstuff is one of the hardest things for a sculptor to do with GS... but hey glad its simple and trivial to ya

I'm teasing you a bit here but ever wondered why that when a sculptor sculpts a blade of a sword or other sharp things it uses milly or other putty combos instead of GS? its not only because of the casting eheheh
More serious now mate I'm quite experienced with GS and sculpting sharp edges with GS is not trivial or simple and comparing it with filling a gap shows bit of lack of knowledge on your part.

Your second point there is NO confusing whatsoever at the end of the day metal casts at GW had a acceptable quality level both for beginners and experienced modelers while finecast does not... One is faulty and the other was not, It cant get more objective than that.

**brettz123**

LunaHound wrote:
htj wrote:2 out of 31, though. That still leaves 29 of those images that are depicting genuine flaws.

QFFT
fan boys still gonna fan though

@kan, somehow i think you either

a) dont believe wayland actually selected the packages randomly
or
b) dont know how randomly sampled assessment works.

The fact that you point out 2 packs have pubes are not a big deal lead to believe the above.

The funny thing is no matter how they picked them they still had 33 unacceptable blisters that should have never left the warehouse.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:GW are the 'ferarri' of minatures. If I bought a ferarri new from the factory and it had scratches and a wheel missing I could just buy a new wheel and ignore the scratches, but I shouldn't have to - I paid premium prices for a 'premium' product... I am entitled to have a decent product.

See I just don't understand this why does it matter if it is a Ferrari or a Honda? I wouldn't buy either if they were scratched or missing something. If you sell something to someone it should not have flaws at all. Now obviously it is impossible for a company to never produce anything flawed but it doesn't even look like GW is bothering to check.

**Andrew1975**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:I'm shocked at how people are defending these miniatures as acceptable.

I'm more shocked at the people saying that these defects are no different to the ones we get on metal minis. I've never had a defect like this on a metal mini other than one Chaos Raptor years ago, and that's it! I also own a lot of resin from various different companies, and none of them are as bad as this (yeah, even the FW models - their biggest problem is warping).

To make matters worse, they don't seem to understand that GW is hyping this product up to be the singularity moment of miniature design, and are charging a price that reflects such a significant event, yet these models are worse than a lot of what's on the market.

The reason you never saw so many miscasts with metal isn't because they didn't happen! They did, it is common to have to bin the first and last runs on a mold becuase it needs to warm up first ansd then it gets to hot. With metal it was just that CQ looked at them and threw them back in the melting pot, something that is impossible with resin. This is GW blatantly passing failures onto it's customers because they didn't want to eat the material cost. It's really that simple. They told CQ to let it slide, unacceptable!

The other thing I don't get is the argument about price. I don't care if I pay $3.00 or $22.00 for a model either way it should have all of the detail on it. Price is no excuse for a poor product.

I agree to a point. I mean I'll buy rejects at a nice discount and fix them myself, but for the price and quality they are demanding this is inexcusable.

**LunaHound**

lords2001 wrote:Would you be happy receiving a hair like that in your package? I wouldn't.

That and there isn't just one with hair - I mean far out, how bloody bad is it when you can't even keep your hair to product ratio to under 1 in 60?

Here is a funny convo with my friend that doesnt know what warhammer is

Cirno: what will you do
Cirno: if ur a company
Cirno: and customers have been complaining about defects all day long
Cirno: so you said
Cirno: ok , we'll pick 60 boxes
Cirno: and use them as sample tests to see how much are defective
Cirno: and out of the 60, 29 have production flaws, and 2 of them have pubic hair in the packages
砕月: wtfudge
Cirno: willl you still say thats no big deal?
砕月: that is a big deal >_>
Cirno: that police guy is saying
Cirno: that fat police wanabe is saying
Cirno: the customers must be desperate
Cirno: if they need to add 2 boxes as flawed product
Cirno: just because it had pubes in it
Cirno: then the other members asked him , wow so pubes doesnt bother him?
Cirno: then the others are saying , IF you leave the 2 out, thats still 29 out of 60
Cirno: almost 50%
砕月: yup
砕月: its like getting an F
砕月: having 50% product fail rate
砕月: is really really bad for a company
砕月: hell some companies are forced to recall after 20% defect
Cirno: so who is so desperate, the customers that complains about the pubes
Cirno: of the fan boys that think pubes arnt bad enough to be considered fail product
砕月: question:
砕月: fan boy for product?
砕月: what kind of product is this
Cirno: warhammer
砕月: and what could result in it having pubic hair?
Cirno: ?
Cirno: i dont know, im guessing scractching balls while packaging miniatures?
砕月: ._.
砕月: okay
砕月: well then the fanboys are desperate.
砕月: if they dont care about how bad the things are
Cirno: well , i cant imagine how else pube hair can get inside toys?
砕月: pretty messed up
Cirno: wait... I K R !!!?!
Cirno: :'D
砕月: lol

**insaniak**

NAVARRO wrote:Your example of simplicity requires you to sculpt a sharp corner with GS...I'm very noob at sculpting mate I dont know much about it but someone said to me that sculpting sharp edges well in greenstuff is one of the hardest things for a sculptor to do with GS...

Similarly, blending the GS onto a flat surface without a noticable hump or seam is fairly tricky without considerable practice.

Replacing a hard edged corner like that without it being extremely noticeable is not something I would expect to be within the abilities of a novice sculptor.

**Necros**

I'm not a finecast hater.. in fact, I think resin is a great idea and I personally dislike super heavy big metal models. I'm even more than happy to take GW's side in a lot of things, I love their games and their models are a lot of fun to build and paint.

But the fact is, Finecast right now is a debacle plain & simple. I just hope things improve soon. Pinning and filling small gaps is fine, but whole parts just not even there? I'm sure miscasts happen in metals, but to this degree? And maybe you might not care that someone's hair is in your product, but I sure as hell do. It's fraking disgusting, and totally unprofessional, coming from a company who markets themselves as the be all end all of tabletop wargames, and for the prices they charge for products that they even say are are now cheaper to produce, it's just kinda lame. I feel bad that they've invested so much in such a flawed product, at the same time, they deserve all the flak they're getting for allowing so many bad pieces to get by their QA trolls.

Makes me feel like they're turning into Mcdonalds. Use the cheapest crap out there, and then market it as the best. Can we order fries with our finecast? I'd at least like to be able to supersize mine...

**NAVARRO**

LunaHound wrote:

砕月: fan boy for product?
砕月: what kind of product is this
Cirno: warhammer
砕月: and what could result in it having pubic hair?
Cirno: ?
Cirno: i dont know, im guessing scractching balls while packaging miniatures?

Hilarious

**LunaHound**

So i have been brutally reminded of one thing.

Where have i read that FINECAST DOESN'T REQUIRE WASHING?

I dont know about you guys but, im washing w/e the ball scratchers have touched.

You know these things?

They are called stress relief balls.
I dont want GW to improvise when they dont have that.

**ancientsociety**

Fetterkey wrote:
If you think the casting flaws depicted are "enormous," I'm not sure what to say to you. The vast majority of the flaws depicted can be trivially fixed with a bit of green stuff. Compare that to the amount of work required to get metal models to work-- often requiring MORE green stuff to fit joints and the like-- and you'll see that the amount of work that these models require is generally less than their metal predecessors. When you combine that with the fact that these models are lighter weight, easier to convert, and more detailed, I think it's clear that Finecast comes out on top.

ancientsociety wrote:
grizgrin wrote:
What kind of experience are other sources reporting? DIfferent online sources and B&M?

Try:

Google-Fu
http://frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=683659#683659
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=87820
http://piratevikingpainting.blogspot.com/2011/05/finecast-review.html
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/371719.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/371720.page#2856689
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=234667
http://www.fantasyladen.de/cgi-bin/frameset/link.pl?LINK=http://www.fantasyladen.de/ausgepackt/110615/finecastfolterer.html

I've yet to find an entirely positive review...

Also consider that this is the same type of resin Mantic is currently using and customers are reporting no issues.

Finecast is marketed as "THE BEST" miniature on the market and GW charges a premium for it. These issues are indeed enormous as they are touted as being perfection by the company selling them.

Why does Mantic use the exact same material to cast some of its newer minis and they are 1/2 the cost and have 0% flaws!?

This resin is not a new material. It is simply the industry standard hard resin with 5% acetone added. Mony manufacturers do it better, cheaper, and with none of these problems (at least) making it into the hands of retailers and customers. Now ask yourself why you should pay MORE for a miniature from a company that cannot even be bothered to provide proper Quality Control for its inventory?

**LunaHound**

As my friend asked, why arnt fine cast been recalled yet?

**VermGho5t**

Pael wrote:
ancientsociety wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I really, really want to know exactly what they're using as standards for "unsellable". It seems quite frankly...random as heck.

I'm not sure where you think this is "random", other than the fact that you took 2 random images with hairs in them to support your "defense". There are a TON of obviously severe casting flaws on the actual site. Missing faces, severely bent handles, inaccurate detailing, and 1-3mm wide pits being just a sample. This is not something as easily fixed as flash or mold-lines on a metal miniature. These problems will force a customer who cannot return the product to resculpt large portions of the miniature by hand.

At the price point GW is selling these at, there is NO EXCUSE for something like this to get past QC, much less make it into the hands of a customer.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pael wrote:60 pieces are good but still a pretty limited sampling, if you were doing a proper investigation you would check every piece received and then put a percentage on your findings.

Or state what percentage your sample was compared to the whole population.

Example: Wayland receives 6000 pieces of fine cast across two shipments. If we use the 60 randomly selected pieces that would mean they only checked 1 percent of the total volume. Honestly a bogus statistic.

Now to be believable they should have sampled at least 1,000 pieces. This size of a sampling has shown to be accurate for statistics no matter the size of the population. Which would give a more accurate and true statistic.

You have no idea how many pieces Wayland received. Who's to say that they didn't order 200? or 500? Or even that all the images shown are ALL of the defects found?

Did you miss the part where I said they should have stated the percentage of the population the did QC? That is exactly what my post was about, it leaves that question unanswered. How many items did they recieve from GW? 60? 100? 200? 6000? They stated that 55% of what they sampled was faulty, if we the reader are not aware of the complete facts we can accidently start assumung that 55% of all finecast will be garbage.

Wayland Games is honestly taking that responsibility on themselves which is misinfoming the customer. If you are going to make such accusations you should provide your audience with as much information as possible.

We know what the sample size of the population is as they stated it. It is your opinion if you do not believe their statement of the pop size. But a good question for Wayland nonetheless.

**Tronbot2600**

I really can't see how anyone could defend this.

I don't know about the miniatures industry, but for most major businesses a 1% failure rate is astronomical. From the looks of it, GWs is many, many times higher than that.

**infinite_array**

I think the underlying problem with all of this was how GW hyped (if that term can be used anymore with GW, with all of their new policies) Finecast. It was supposed to be the end-all, be-all of miniatures, top quality, the best money could buy.

So, any mistakes that get out are compounded with the fact they we're paying a premium amount of money for these models. We want them to be perfect - and GW isn't living up to the promises they gave. They was never a warning that the first run would have (seemingly) so many mistakes. We were lead to believe we'd be getting immaculate, expertly molded models.

Maybe that's why GW is implementing such draconian methods of information control? Because they realized what happens when the make promises they can't deliever?

**Andrew1975**

Last time I saw a company act like this is was the 70's auto manufacturers. They thought they had a captive audience until the Japanese came along, look at the mess they are in now.

**Grot 6**

The real question enqiring minds wants to know is how much you all are paying for pubes, and can I get some scratch for mine from all of you. I'll sell you mine for a third of the price of GW's, and only dropped once.

Or is it that those pubes are something extra special, like Jimmy hendrix's or Jim Morrisons?

LMAO!!!!

**LunaHound**

Grot 6 wrote:The real question enqiring minds wants to know is how much you all are paying for pubes, and can I get some scratch for mine from all of you. I'll sell you mine for a third of the price of GW's, and only dropped once.

Or is it that those pubes are something extra special, like Jimmy hendrix's or Jim Morrisons?

LMAO!!!!

Pubes are extra special. Because with this age of technology , we can clone whole staff of GW employees.
Some even say, the clones might be able to retain some of the subject's memories.

And we might be able to see GW's future releases

Ohhhh!

**nkelsch**

I think GW is going to have to give up the idea of casting a resin sprue like a plastic one.

When you pour metal parts, you usually only have one to two pieces per mold, and again, if it is flawed you throw it out. Eventually you get enough individual pieces to make a good model.

When you make a 2-part resin mold that makes 5 bitz, and one of the 5 bitz has a flaw, no problem, you keep the other 4 and dump the one flawed piece. Eventually you get enough individual pieces to make a good model.

When you make a sprue resin mold... you have like 8 bitz on one piece that all gotta be perfect. I suspect to make finecast work, they are going to have to inspect and clip bitz off the sprues to do QC and then pack blisters with individual resin bitz, not sprues.

I just got 30 ultra marine shoulderpads from GW (6 sprues of 5 pads metal) and two of the pads had the 'incomplete metal' rounding on them. So while that is only 2 out of 30, that is 2 flawed sprues out of 6.

Edit: the short and curlies are gross.

**xxvaderxx**

Do these pieces of crap still melt in the sun like ive read around?.

**solkan**

Does it make me an apologist if the only three fine cast models that I've seen so far in person were just fine? Or that I expect that Wayland Games is fethed off at GW over the Australian exports thing?

Ah, the joys of wargaming.

**Pyriel-**

So let me get this strait... finecast is superior because sculpting the full parts missing from the models is less time consuming and kind of trivial than drilling a hole and and filling a gap? You can stop right there Sir because it makes NO sense what your saying... Even if its funny to see the lengths people go to try to justify what is not justifiable.

As for people saying metal had the same problems its absolute bollocks, metal casting at GW the last couple decades never had 1% of the problems these Finecasts had in 1 month.

Pubic hairs on blisters tells me these blisters were packed at a dumpster or at a sleazy prostitute crib... not the best image you want to take to your kids when he asks for a finecast is it? Reason to consider faulty product? Well I as a costumer would complain to Waylands if I got it there and I might even ask if they opened the blister at waylands... So yeah I can see waylands consider this not something that they want to deal with.

Obviously since it takes specialist tools to drill a little hole in a metal mini whereas everybody and their grandmothers have greenstuff and the skills to use it at home, duh!

I also miss certain persons like Ph3ar and Captain Jack in here, people who are oh so concerned and outraged when other companies make even a little misstake but I guess I cant get it all.

As for fine cast minis and their miscasts I dont really care, I would simply sculpt the missing part in 5 minutes and be over with it rather then go through all the hassle with a replacement but that´s just me. Imagine all the people who dont use greenstuff every day, it´s hard for me to imagine but when I see my friends having a go at the hobby and their "normal" attempts at even the simpliest greenstuff usage like filling a gap etc the results are more often then not barely better then the flaw they were meant to fix.

Myself I will get a lot of finecast minis despite 50% of them beain crap miscasts simply to save weight in my army bags but I cant see why a few people always defend GWs misstakes so utterly.
Maybe GW is paying them to bot forums, if so can I join in, that would be a fun way to earn a little at the side

**frozenwastes**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:I'm shocked at how people are defending these miniatures as acceptable.

I'm more shocked at the people saying that these defects are no different to the ones we get on metal minis. I've never had a defect like this on a metal mini other than one Chaos Raptor years ago, and that's it! I also own a lot of resin from various different companies, and none of them are as bad as this (yeah, even the FW models - their biggest problem is warping).

I took stock the last time I moved house and found out I had over 300 metal miniatures (started with miniatures in 1993). I have never, ever, ever, gotten a metal miniature that has any of the problems in these finecast products. I've had some pretty hefty mould lines or some rough surfacing that needed smoothing, but nothing like missing bolter sides, missing links of chain or missing sword tips. Miscasts are thrown back in the melting pot by quality control and thus you see so very few of them reach the customer.

To make matters worse, they don't seem to understand that GW is hyping this product up to be the singularity moment of miniature design, and are charging a price that reflects such a significant event, yet these models are worse than a lot of what's on the market.

These models are bad enough that I would never, ever buy one that I couldn't open and inspect first. I am certainly not going to order one sight unseen from an online store.

Kudos to Wayland for making sure their customers don't receive such disappointing products.

**nkelsch**

frozenwastes wrote:
These models are bad enough that I would never, ever buy one that I couldn't open and inspect first. I am certainly not going to order one sight unseen from an online store.

Maybe this was GW's goal all along... Killing the free-loading online market by making products people need to buy in person from brick and mortar for full retail price.

Maybe they are sending the doo-dooist blisters to online retailers to screw them too while the retail brick and mortars get the good batches! Crazy... Like a FOX!

**frozenwastes**

ancientsociety wrote:
Why does Mantic use the exact same material to cast some of its newer minis and they are 1/2 the cost and have 0% flaws!?

It's not the same material. It's slightly harder and won't melt in the sun. Mantic's resin plastic is superior to the finecast resin plastic.

I've handled both and Mantic's are hard and relatively rigid (they still flex), GW are soft and very rubbery/bendy in comparison.

Mantic switched those wraiths from metal to a superior material and then also doubled the number you get in a box.

**Andrew1975**

nkelsch wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
These models are bad enough that I would never, ever buy one that I couldn't open and inspect first. I am certainly not going to order one sight unseen from an online store.

Maybe this was GW's goal all along... Killing the free-loading online market by making products people need to buy in person from brick and mortar for full retail price.

Maybe they are sending the doo-dooist blisters to online retailers to screw them too while the retail brick and mortars get the good batches! Crazy... Like a FOX!

You know, I wouldn't put it past them. It's actually brilliant.