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Carapace vets are more competitive than SoB..just saying. They put out more long range and close range firepower for less points. It's just that they're less competitive than basic vets, since basic vets do the same thing.

And it's not so much that I'm comparing them to marines. THey don't play anything like marines. They play a lot more like IG. However, they are a specifically short ranged
SHOOTY army. They are not a shooty, countercharge army like space wovles, or a sit back and shoot army like IG can be.

It really just comes back down to the fact that their short ranged shooting sucks. You have to commit and get there...and when you do get there you only have 1 turn to make a difference. If you don't, you get assaulted, and that's it. The army's uncompetitive because this whitedwarf wasn't designed with this game balance in mind. It was written for some other purpose. GW believes themselves to be a production line company, and not a service oriented business (yay last year of business school). They don't understand yet that services like army book design fuel their production..but a lot of businesses fail at that. I'm looking at you Nintendo of the 80's and 90's.

In this edition, bolters suck, plain and simple. Short ranged shooting sucks, plain and simple. The powerful things in this game are long range dakka and hth. To be even more specific, heavy and special weapons, both in hth and shooting, dominate 40k.

Well I just think any 10 model or fewer troop choice with as many heavy and special weapons, just isn't appropriate... and I play guard.

In this instance, its a bit of power creep at its worst. Its a case of Vets should have less, not SoB have more.

Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

I'm okay with sisters of battle being 12 if they were the best close range firepower in the game like they used to be. They need it anyways. It's just that they aren't that good at close range shooting anymore. Even chaos marines pack just as many special weapons these days...

I would like to have SoB with heavy specialisation on close range-fire power. An overdestructive close range-fire power. Even if they die horribly in HtH (but not fleeing easily) and lack of long range fire power. It is like that I intend a bolter-flamer-melta fanatical army.


So, with what it seems we are gonna to have with this second WD part. What will be the speciality/particularity of a SoB army (even if you see them as weak now, as I am not a competitive player) ?

they need to be stubbon

Their specialty, at least if you want to be competitive, will be in designing immolator/exorcist spam armies.

Immolators pack the best anti-tank or anti-infantry weapons in 40k fifth edition. They will be more than competitive with any razorspam or IG build, if you build around that idea.

You may as well use papercutouts for your infantry though, for they'll be as useful as infantry are in mech guard armies.

Lascannon Razorbacks and GK Psy-backs are probably going to beat Immolator spam, I think.

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

I think it's 125 9+Vet

Looks like per sister squad in a Rhino w/ Heavy Flamer Melta we'll be saving around 19-24 points (if you took extra armor from the old codex)

Kreedos wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

I think it's 125 9+Vet

Ok, that's still 11 per SoB then, not 12.

Some of that price goes into the Vet, just like Marine squads.

Kreedos wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

I think it's 125 9+Vet

Looks like per sister squad in a Rhino w/ Heavy Flamer Melta we'll be saving around 19-24 points (if you took extra armor from the old codex)

Not sure where you get those numbers - the old basic minimum Battle Sister squad with a VSS, melta, heavy flamer and extra armour Rhino comes in 4 points cheaper than the new version, if the rumours are to be believed. Except Tabitha earlier posted that most of today's rumours viz the second half of the Codex are incorrect.

SoB Squad = 110 + 10 + 12 (special weapons) + 14 vet + 5 book + 58 (Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke) = 209 points

209 - 185 (new sister squad x 1 hflamer (15 pts) and 1x Melta (10) in Rhino)= 24

That's where I'm getting those numbers from, seems like you were overpaying/underpaying for your Sisters or not adding them right.

Yes and no. It depends on terrain, the board, and setup. At midrange and close up, the twin-linked multimelta beats the twin lascannon by a large large amount...even when not in melta range. AP 1 is just that good. Also, 6++ on tanks doesn't suck.

Of course, if it's on a board with no cover and lascannons razors are going first...oh well.

On the flip side, the dominion immolators have scout. Inside, those immolators have either 4 flamers or 4 meltaguns. If the immolator player is going first, that free 12" move ior outflank is a big deal.

Mech will be very powerful still.

Kreedos wrote:SoB Squad = 110 + 10 + 12 (special weapons) + 14 vet + 5 book + 58 (Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke) = 209 points

209 - 185 = 24

That's where I'm getting those numbers from, seems like you were overpaying for your Sisters or not adding them right.

Ahh - well, Book is gone, so old sisters will come in at 204 - I forgot to account for smoke, hence the discrepency. New sisters, assuming Extra Armour is costed according to C:SM, heavy flamers at 20 points, and meltagun unchanged, come in at 205.

I believe the new Immolator might be 2 Melta shots instead of 1 twin linked shot.

The Immolator entry states "A Pair of Multi Meltas"

But then again it says "A pair of multi meltas instead of heavy flamers"

Which can mean the MM might be twin linked because the HF is twin linked and sounds like the Heavy Bolter is TL

Either way it pretty much works out to the same thing.

Mythal wrote:
Ahh - well, Book is gone, so old sisters will come in at 204 - I forgot to account for smoke, hence the discrepency. New sisters, assuming Extra Armour is costed according to C:SM, heavy flamers at 20 points, and meltagun unchanged, come in at 205.

I wouldn't pay 15 points for extra armor in the new codex honestly, it's just not worth 15 points, not at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm just going to flat out say that SoBs were and still are significantly better then tactical marines and that the addition of a grenade isn't making them useless.

I'm curious, Shuma - what makes you make that assertion, assuming the 12 point figure for the basic SoB is accurate? I appreciate you'll be working off rumours for some of this comparison, but I've got to say that I'm not seeing it - yet.

I am, however, willing to read your justification for the above statement.

Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.

I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.

Just got to the cost of Inferno pistols, about choked.

The guy that wrote these rules should be sacked, old medieval days sacked.........

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.

What about the Ogre Kingdoms models? I thought they would be good!

Are Seraphim as suggested in their pricing?

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Avariel wrote:Need to actually see the pages for myself before I pass judgment. I can't imagine Sisters costing more then they did in the old codex. The old kitted out 10 Sisters squads in Rhinos cost about the same as a Tactical Squad in a Rhino which was ridiculous but part of it was the over costed by 15 points Rhino but still.

I have the September WD380 in my hand. I can verify all of the worst rumors and tell you nothing in the issue is good. Even the number of special weapons that can be carried by a squad is less.

Any mention of necrons?

Oh well, even if it's all bad. I'll still make it work, I have before, and I will again.

And if Seraphim are 15 ppm, it's not all bad. =) I'm wondering if the Cannoness command squad can take 3 special weps though.

Seraphim are as some have listed. The costs for Inferno is staggering, think twice model cost just for the pistols.

Yeah we'll see. But so far everything that has come forward looks like an ill conceived afterthought. It would be great to be proven wrong about it but you seem allot more optimistic than I am. I play grey knights too and at this point in codex discovery, or whatever you want to call it, I thought the new codex seemed awesome. Maybe because I never modeled up and termis with storm shields?

I know what you mean. I simply state the obvious, we all (most of us) thought the GKs were trashed with the removal of a lot of special rules, think of the shrouding when it was taken away, how on earth would the GK be able to survive against all those russ pancakes all of a sudden etc.
In the end GW is out to make money so they h a v e to make a competitive codex in order for people to buy them.
Sure, I agree, a 6+ inv save sucks ass and that 3++ was much better but I don´t think they will be uncompetitive, require a different play and approach, sure, get new fluff, yes but still remain strong, that or GW shot themselves in the foot.

Change is always bad, we are used to power faith and not watered down 6++ saves and I bet there will be units and wargear that nobody will take like in every codex (hey, purgation squads, legion of the damned, vanguards, psilencers...etc) but there must be positive additions thrown in as a whole to counter that, things we dont see until the first batrep post on dakka showing SoB as the winners of some tourney.

At 12 points, a minimum 10 and canoness can't take a jumppack..they're kinda restricted in role. Like tact marines, you have to committ a lot of points and effort into your troop choices, but unlike tact squads they aren't really very tactical, as basic sisters only really do one thing.

Might be GWs plan to let the codex be based on big blocks of bolter minis (sisters), with their damage coming from shooting that they do far better then the SM equivalent and for less points but then these blocks wont be as independent in turn, needing protection and support to counter their weaknesses by other more costly parts of the army.

Edit: I notice too that this may be a design shift or the start of a different trend in the way army books are done. For a while, basic troopers were going down in points. Orks, space marines, space wolves, Imperial guard...a lot of these codecies made their troops cheaper when they came out. Transports went down as well...rhinos to 35, chimeras to 55.

Yeah, there is a trend here, adding more wargear included in the price and removing flexibility (floating squad sizes penalized) and keeping things cheap for troop units.
Then having the player walk a balance game in number of troops and number of peripherials to offset troop weakness.
Not all codexes are like this but the power armoured ones tend to follow this trend.

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

No, because apparently the details people are talking about are bogus, at least according to tabitha who is supposedly in the know.

Brother SRM wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

No, because apparently the details people are talking about are bogus, at least according to tabitha who is supposedly in the know.

I'd like to believe this, but I'm going to hope for the worst and maybe be pleasantly surprised.

Kreedos wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Does anyone actually know if it's 12/SoB or just that it's 125/9SoB+vet sgt?

No, because apparently the details people are talking about are bogus, at least according to tabitha who is supposedly in the know.

I'd like to believe this, but I'm going to hope for the worst and maybe be pleasantly surprised.

Wait 3 days and find out

Kreedos wrote:I'm wondering if the Cannoness command squad can take 3 special weps though.

Possible by if you are like me you will be taking the jump packs off of all of your Canoness models

In addition I am wondering about the greatest heroine in the sister's history not being an independent character. That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules. It is definitively an codex made just to legally kill Witch Hunters and the Allies rules and not meant for any other purpose.

As an aside my game store ordered a few additional copies and those are what came in, not the normal run which did not come in, so I suspect we were not supposed to get this issue yet.....

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Kreedos wrote:I'm wondering if the Cannoness command squad can take 3 special weps though.

Possible by if you are like me you will be taking the jump packs off of all of your Canoness models

In addition I am wondering about the greatest heroine in the sister's history not being an independent character. That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules. It is definitively an codex made just to legally kill Witch Hunters and the Allies rules and not meant for any other purpose.

Ok at this point, you best be trollin.

We already know that Celestine is an IC, it says so in her rule page released in the first Sister WD. In fact every single HQ has the IC special rule.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: That kind of mistake throughout the 9 pages ( I do not include the wasted page about 40k in general) shows the real contempt displayed by GW and the author of these rules.

I think it just shows how far rules come from their initial efforts.

I have both mags here in front of me. I know what it said in the first one. I am saying the 2nd mag says different and is wrong. My point is what kind of proofing would have missed that?

Uh, check out the first mag, page 100, read on the left where it says Retributor with a Heavy Bolter. Looks a lot like a MM to me. There's a lot of small mistakes and lack of proofreading.

Kreedos wrote:Ok at this point, you best be trollin.

We already know that Celestine is an IC, it says so in her rule page released in the first Sister WD. In fact every single HQ has the IC special rule.

According to the rumors, they neglected to include that little bit of information in her section in the second half of the Codex.