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Avatar 720 wrote:Believe in an afterlife if you want to, but remember that you only have one life which is certain, and you are currently digging into the time you have to live it.

Don't waste your earthbound life planning for what comes after it; you'll either have an eternity to do it when you get there, or you'll have wasted your life on something that does not exist.

Worry not how you will live your next life, but instead how you're living your current one.

Lets assume for the moment that there exists an afterlife and that it lasts for eternity. All you have to prepare for this afterlife is your current life, topping out at around 100 years if you're lucky.

Would it be better to live those 100 years to the fullest with complete disregard for the afterlife or would it be better to spend those 100 years ensuring that the afterlife is as wonderful as possible?

If we assume that there is not an afterlife, then you would want to live those 100 years without regard to what comes next, knowing that there's nothing at the end.

Therefore, shouldn't your certainty of the existence of an afterlife in some way relate to how much of your time you spend preparing for it?

Yes, this is a variation of Pascal's wager. But then again, Blaise Pascal is probably one of the top ten minds throughout history, so if the intelligence of an atheist is raised (Dawkins), the intelligence of believers (Pascal) should be at least relevant.

That would rely on preperation being necessary, given that you're going to be spending a good long time in there; is there even any possible way that you could spend 100 years planning for an eternity?

An afterlife is often pictured as perfect to the view of the person experiencing it; but having it so that you must spend your miniscule lifetime preparing for an eternity would be a flaw, since it's pretty much inconcievable to use 100 years as a base for planning a timeless life.

You're going to eventually run out of things to do if you were only allowed so many years of planning, so I personally like to think of an afterlife as something that you have control over whilst you live it.

Some people may disagree, but the way I see it, I have an eternity to plan my afterlife whilst i'm living it, so it'd be a better use of my limited time on Earth to plan what i'm going to do in the life i'm currently living.

So for me, afterlife planning is a bridge I shall cross when I come to it. Honestly, there are 3 outcomes here; 1 that means I did have to prepare in this life, 1 that means I did not, and 1 that contains no afterlife; by living my life on Earth to the full, i'm covering myself for the lack of an afterlife, but also for the possibility of an afterlife I can alter at will once I am inside; if I live only to plan for death, then I waste my time on Earth if there is no afterlife, or if I can alter it at will.

As it stands, i've got 2/3 outcomes covered.

I always thought Pascals wager has been refuted so many times, it isn't even worth talking about anymore.

For myself out of the plethora of rebuttals, I like to think that there have been so many Gods throughout history, the Christian or Muslim one are likely to be the wrong one, and loads of Religions mention a "Jealous" God, so Im hoping that if (unlikely) there is a God, he will like plain old non believing Matty that is nice merely for the sake of it, way more than someone who picked the wrong God.

Surely if you were a jealous vengeful God you would hate people that worshipped another God way more than you would people that were merely ignorant right?

Ok so we would be bro's!

I like to think that there have been so many Gods throughout history

I can't say that there isn't a bit of me (okay, a fairly sizeable chunk, but whatever) that doesn't hope Odin and the Norse gang are there when I snuff it.

mattyrm wrote: I always thought Pascals wager has been refuted so many times, it isn't even worth talking about anymore.

As a defense of the existence of God, sure. But then, it really wasn't presented as such. But as an introduction to games theory, it's pretty darn good.

mattyrm wrote:For myself out of the plethora of rebuttals, I like to think that there have been so many Gods throughout history, the Christian or Muslim one are likely to be the wrong one

That's the lottery paradox. Even if the existence of a god is very likely true, the existence of any individual god (given the number of gods ever proposed) is likely untrue. I say pick one horse that works for you. After all, if you don't play, you can't win.

mattyrm wrote:Im hoping that if (unlikely) there is a God, he will like plain old non believing Matty that is nice merely for the sake of it, way more than someone who picked the wrong God.

Unfortunately, most gods are pretty demanding. Jews are supposed to avoid eating pork. Hindus to avoid eating beef. Muslims to avoid alcohol. You could only get into Valhalla if you died as a warrior, and I'm pretty sure you had to make some inter vivos sacrifices to Odin and his friends. The Greek and Roman gods likewise demanded sacrifice and worship.

I've always thought Christianity has a relatively low overhead, religiously speaking. Although if you're Jewish by birth, you're at a good starting point from Yahweh's perspective. If I were an atheist worried about the non-zero chance of some religion being correct, I'd choose the one with the lowest commitment. Christianity and Wiccanism are probably some of the easiest. Depending on your personal life, Shinto and Buddhism could be easy to move into as well.

biccat wrote:if you don't play, you can't win.

Another gambler's fallacy. Yes you can. You can win by spending/investing your money/time/etc elsewhere.

So, do you guys think that one day in the future we will see Christianity just as we see the Pantheon of Roman/Greek gods now?

I mean, we dismiss that dogma no problem, but people back then believed in it just as much as people believe in Christianity now.

Of course, then we will have some new religion polluting everyone's mind; Unitarianism (from Deadspace) or maybe the Emperor will finally come back.

mattyrm wrote:Somewhat related to this story, I was in Amsterdam all last week and went to the Van Gogh museum.

What happened to Theo Van Gogh is a fething disgusting tragedy, and frankly im even more enraged by it than I usually am about this kinda thing.

Why do Religious people DEMAND protection and equality, but then they are willing to MURDER someone for doing what they do? How can you preach about the right to dissent and then butcher people in the streets for doing so?

If I ruled the world...

Because religious people are just that....people, and by nature people can be cruel, heartless, and merciless to one another. Now, factor in a belief that your actions are divinely inspired and you've got yourself one hell of a cocktail, one that gives these religious folks (in their minds) the justification to do whatever they want in the name of God.

Hypocrisy is also one of the downfalls of people, religious people especially are susceptible to it because of their code.

So, do you guys think that one day in the future we will see Christianity just as we see the Pantheon of Roman/Greek gods now?

If history is any indication then certainly. Ideas propell socieities, they bring people together for a common goal, they allow stronger groups to take over weaker groups, this usually leads results in a signifianct period of evolution in technology and prosperity. Religion is one of the most powerful memes and these religious ideas are always seeming to grow and evolve into more powerful forms just as societies do, feeding on the weaker ones that have become complacent through prosperity. So at least in my mind, it stands to reason that there will be a more hardcore religion at some point than the state of christianity at that time which would again morph and morph and potentially eventually lead to majority of the population regarding what we now see as accurate, as silly as they believe in something totally different

I'm actually unsure if Christianity will fade like that. The super religions are so engrained and entrenched in their relevant cultures, its unlikely they'll ever disappear. It takes a massive cultural shift on the lines of civilization collapse to actually get rid of that sort of thing. I could happen, but I don't see it happening in the near future. There's no precedent for a religion that spans continents and has hundreds of millions if not billions of adherents. Remember that more than half the world's population falls under the sphere of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. And again, we're looking at this with a very Western European and US outlook. Christianity is not fading in other parts of the world. It's growing. The total number of Christians in the world goes up every year (not as fast as the total number of Muslims mind you).

I think Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam are too entrenched to ever truly fade into the stories of yesterage (or whatever...). Not in any near future.

I dont think it will happen anytime soon and I would also be suprised if it was a complete vanishing of the most of todays religions, but i would not be surprised if in 2000 years we could drop in on how things are going we would find a total shift in mentality alien to what we now know.

thedude wrote:I dont think it will happen anytime soon and I would also be suprised if it was a complete vanishing of the most of todays religions, but i would not be surprised if in 2000 years we could drop in on how things are going we would find a total shift in mentality alien to what we now know.

The Emperor will obviously have returned by then to stop us from killing each other

daedalus-templarius wrote:

thedude wrote:I dont think it will happen anytime soon and I would also be suprised if it was a complete vanishing of the most of todays religions, but i would not be surprised if in 2000 years we could drop in on how things are going we would find a total shift in mentality alien to what we now know.

The Emperor will obviously have returned by then to stop us from killing each other

A Challenger Appears!

EDIT: Oh hey, slight angelic nudity.

Richard Dawkins is just one of the many great people who religion would love to 'go missing'. He's not the first and he certainly won't be the last either. Galileo, who lived in the 16-17th century, was another who was known for his outspoken views on science. After 1610AD, when he began pubicly supporting the heliocentric theory of Copernicaus', which placed the sun at the centre of the Universe (as opposed to the geocentric view which believed that the Earth was instead) he met with furious opposition from the clergy, and two of their number denouned him to the Roman Inquistion! Although he was cleared of all charges, the Catholic Church, in it's infinite wisdom, condemned his heliocentric view as "utterly false and contrary to scripture", and was warned to abandon his support for it, which he promised to do. He later defended his views in a work of his, promptly tried, found guilty and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his days, but not before being forced to recant. Although science has come a long way since then, religion still seems to be stuck back in the Dark Ages. Hating on anyone who has the courage and ability to get them all sweaty and in a panic over some 'awkward' idea's. The Vatican would humiliate itself if it started claiming that the Earth was still at the centre of the Universe, (not that it still believes it mind), and the Creationist's will eventually make less noise too as, even they, will start to realise just how simple and out of touch they sound.

You realize that the Young Earth Creationists are a minority among Christians, right?

In before "hurrrrrr no true scotsman fallacy derp herp a derpa doo".

Monster Rain wrote:You realize that the Young Earth Creationists are a minority among Christians, right?

In before "hurrrrrr no true scotsman fallacy derp herp a derpa doo".

I think that would be "No real Christian is a YE Creationist".

God isn't dead, he's just really sleepy. You're all very boring.

I though Galelo was wrong - the sun moves as does the rest of the universe. The RCC was equall wrong if they though they world was at the centre but it's not really their remit...

Anyway.. I think that without religion life is rather pointless. I can just deposit some gametes and say 'reproduce me' and then kill myself*

It's quite depressing. I do blame faith loss (and other issues) on my depression but then that shows how dangerous it can be (ie does lack of faith casue depression or does having faith prevent depression?)


*note to dakka not actually going to kill myself

Galileo also got slapped by other scientists, philosophers, and pretty much everyone else. Anyone who says something contrary to the common thought ends up in a crappy situation.

The structure of the solar system also has no basis in "scripture." Don't confuse the corruption of the Catholic Church as its scrambled to maintain itself as its power declined, which is not a strictly religious issue but also a political one. Though dogmatic Christianity is mostly to blame for Galileo's demise, simply saying "Christians hate science, look what they did to Galileo" is a misrepresentation of history that isn't false but ignores other issues.

Remember that Pope Pius XII would later praise Galileo's courage and condemn the Catholic church for what did to him. John Paul II did the same.

o0shotty0o wrote:From my experiance people who dont belive in something e.g god , allah or whaterver , are a shell of a person with no confidence.I feel sorry for people who dont at least belive in something.

Hmmm... being one of these people you describe I find it complete lies.
I have a full life, enjoy every day and love those around me like they were family. I have healthy respect for everyone.
I don't need an invisible faerie backing me up to feel confident. I don't need a "higher being" to tell me what is good and bad, I can figure that out myself.
I have confidence in myself, the skills that I learned, in the people around me, in my family and don't need to rely in spiritualism to feel fulfilled.

MadEdric wrote:

o0shotty0o wrote:From my experiance people who dont belive in something e.g god , allah or whaterver , are a shell of a person with no confidence.I feel sorry for people who dont at least belive in something.

Hmmm... being one of these people you describe I find it complete lies.
I have a full life, enjoy every day and love those around me like they were family. I have healthy respect for everyone.
I don't need an invisible faerie backing me up to feel confident. I don't need a "higher being" to tell me what is good and bad, I can figure that out myself.
I have confidence in myself, the skills that I learned, in the people around me, in my family and don't need to rely in spiritualism to feel fulfilled.

I agree, you sir are an ass and should realise that I would be a shell of a person if I had to put all my faith in some 'higher being' which we have no evidence that it exists at all. I do believe in that science is the way forward, not some book that says what I can and can't do.

Guy is/was(he banned yet?) a troll.

So many of my fellow mortal humans wanting God dead, wishing Him dead or trying to write off His followers. That is nothing new. However as before God will still be here long after we are all in our graves.

MrDwhitey wrote:Guy is/was(he banned yet?) a troll.

Who are you talking about?

blood reaper wrote:

MrDwhitey wrote:Guy is/was(he banned yet?) a troll.

Who are you talking about?

Shotty.

Oh good.

Orlanth wrote:So many of my fellow mortal humans wanting God dead, wishing Him dead or trying to write off His followers. That is nothing new. However as before God will still be here long after we are all in our graves.

Mate, If God is real, I am more than comfortable with it. He can correct me when we meet, if he really does love me, thats cool, why would anyone want to wish a loving person, God or otherwise, dead?

Its some of his fething followers I want dead. Not him.

If he can start with Ayman Mohammed Rabie al-Zawahiri, Anjem Choudray, Abu Hamza, and Fred Phelps, i'd much appreciate it.

Oh and that Catholic League prick, Bill Donahue..

Oh and Pat Robertson too, that horrible auld bastard deserve's it. Lets not forget him.

Basically mate, I want gak loads of people dead, not God.

So many of my fellow mortal humans want a God so very badly, wishing Him alive or trying to write stories to create followers. This is nothing new. However as before, what man wants out of this God will change to suit the times and his desires. These yearnings for a god-figure will still be here long after we are all in our graves.

Melissia wrote:

biccat wrote:if you don't play, you can't win.

Another gambler's fallacy. Yes you can. You can win by spending/investing your money/time/etc elsewhere.

A fallacy indeed. The following is a true story that I would have liked to have been able to say had happened to myself but alas, it actually happened to one of the biggest planks that I have ever, Ever known. Let's call him Jimbob. He was the youngest (18 at the time) of three brothers and the other two were both banged up, one for burglary, the other for stabbing some poor random, so it's fair to say that they weren't exactly the Waltons. Anyhoo, someone who he hanged around with was an aquaintance of mine so they both approached me as I came out of a newsagent one day. As my aquitaintance and I stood there chatting, Jimbob appeared to notice something on the ground, just outside of the shop, so he sauntered over, and picked up what looked to me like a crushed, tendeck box of fags and brought it over to us, his face changing, more and more, from a frown to complete and utter delight with every step. He turned it toward us so that we could see what it was. Somebody had bought a scratch card from the shop and, upon realising that they hadn't won anything on it, disgarded it on the floor. However, they must have been on the sauce thats only way it made any sense to me. It was worth £75! I was really broke at the as well. It couldn't have happened to nicer guy. I felt sick!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:So many of my fellow mortal humans want a God so very badly, wishing Him alive or trying to write stories to create followers. This is nothing new. However as before, what man wants out of this God will change to suit the times and his desires. These yearnings for a god-figure will still be here long after we are all in our graves.

I agree. Or, to put it more succinctly: Man created God in HIS image. Not the other way round.

Ahtman wrote:I think that would be "No real Christian is a YE Creationist".

Oh, I was just heading it off at the pass. I've seen the No True Scotsman trotted out when someone said that the WBC doesn't represent mainstream Christianity.

And now I'll continue reading the thread to see how many more cliches I can count on one page.

MadEdric wrote:

o0shotty0o wrote:From my experiance people who dont belive in something e.g god , allah or whaterver , are a shell of a person with no confidence.I feel sorry for people who dont at least belive in something.

Hmmm... being one of these people you describe I find it complete lies.
I have a full life, enjoy every day and love those around me like they were family. I have healthy respect for everyone.
I don't need an invisible faerie backing me up to feel confident. I don't need a "higher being" to tell me what is good and bad, I can figure that out myself.
I have confidence in myself, the skills that I learned, in the people around me, in my family and don't need to rely in spiritualism to feel fulfilled.

QFT