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SonicPara wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.

Yeah, and it is going to happen to us again.

Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.

What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!

ajefferism wrote:Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....

I've heard that and I really hope it is true. I think balance only makes the game better. Had a slugfest between my Dark Eldar and a friend's IG last night that was just wicked fun because both codices are so powerful.

DarkStarSabre wrote:What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!

Because we all know that CSM is terrible right now. They are in the same boat as Eldar; constricted to only a select few strong builds but said strong builds are still competitive. Tau and pre-release Necrons were on an entirely different boat; constricted AND awful. Necrons jumped ship for a better standing but now the Sisters came aboard so the Tau aren't lonely.

SonicPara wrote:

ajefferism wrote:Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....

I've heard that and I really hope it is true. I think balance only makes the game better. Had a slugfest between my Dark Eldar and a friend's IG last night that was just wicked fun because both codices are so powerful.

DarkStarSabre wrote:What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!

Because we all know that CSM is terrible right now. They are in the same boat as Eldar; constricted to only a select few strong builds but said strong builds are still competitive. Tau and pre-release Necrons were on an entirely different boat; constricted AND awful. Necrons jumped ship for a better standing but now the Sisters came aboard so the Tau aren't lonely.

But I want the 'crons back. The sisters are too rude and don't want to hear about the Greater Good you could at least drop a necron or give him a lot of Oil and he would "listen" you.

Prodigalson wrote:Tau don't need the update that Necrons and DE have gotten, nor will they get it. They need a new codex for rules, but they already have eight plastic kits, and very little still in pure metal and a few metal hybrids.

If you think Tau don't need an update clearly you've never tried to play using:
Shadowsun, Ethereals, Honor Guard Fire Warriors, Aun'Va, Crisis Team Bodyguards, Stealth Suits, Shield Drones, Marker Drones, Gun Drone Squadrons, Sky Ray Missile Defense ships, Vespid Sting Wings, Kroot Carnivors, Krootoxen, Kroot Shapers, Pathfinders, Markerlights, Sniper Drones, Broadsides, Ion Cannons, Rail Rifles, Human Auxileries, Seeker Missiles, or Cyclonic Ion Blasters.

Were you keeping track? that leaves regular crisis suits, firewarriors, a Crisis commander, and devilfishes as viable. Did I mention all four of those also have problems with them? (FW are 1-2 points too expensive for their statline, crisis suits are too large and in too small squads with horrible BS for their cost as a fire support unit, and are too expensive, Shas'els are the only viable option over shas'os because the latter are too expensive, and devilfishes lack proper fire support for their cargo, essentially carrying three of the same weapons as their firewarriors only with worse range, AND they can only carry firewarriors. kinda like a ghost ark except we don't get to bring our dead GEQ back to life every phase)

The rest have severe detrimental statlinges that need to be corrected, and we need new alternatives to fill our slots. Broadsides are too expensive and lack an INV necessary to make them worth fielding (and their even bigger than regular suits) same as marker and shield drones (the cost not the inv save), honor guard, ethereals, shadowsun, aun'va, sky rays, and vespids all have contradictory statelines (being built to get into close combat but sucking at it, for example with the stingwings). Stealth suits Gun Drones Crisis Bodyguards Kroot (and their associates) sniper teams and human auxileries lack to options and are too expensive for what they do (I'd pay 30 points for a firewarrior with a 3+ save if it also had a plasma rifle. then it's really be worth paying almost as much as a terminator for one) Ion cannons, Rail Rifles, Pathfinders, non integrated markerlights, and cyclonic ion blasters are all outclassesd by better options within the codex (for example, rail rifles are stupid to take since they can only be taken by pathfinders, and you only waste points on a stagnant unit like pathfinders because you need more markerlights, and pathfinders themselves are a waste because you can get the same markerlights but also have JP and Stealth by taking them with stealth suits)

I play tau heavily. I use all of these units. They're fun to use yes, but are they competative? not by any stretch of the imagination. They're all overcosted (a symptom of being an older dex) and they're all outclassed by current armies. You CAN do a lot of crazy things with all our rules, but in truth, half our codex is units NO ONE EVER TAKES. To the point where you can spot a N008 Tau player if you see such units in their list. Hell I could do a codex breakdown right now about how each unit should be changed to make it viable without being OP (in fact I have, I made a list using such an idea when playing with my friends, and immediately units like vespids and Kroot had a purpose besides "show up turn one, kill something, die turn 2") Every tau player knows we need a new dex. the only army who needed 1 more was crons and now they got it. so i hope and pray that at last the dark Ward Mathew with his one Dex to rule them all will finally update our gakky old as gak dex to one that we can at least take to play with and not leave half the models on the shelf.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.

What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!

Wait... are you proposing the question (where you'd say "What is a Chaos Space Marine player?"), or are you selecting the next answer (where you'd say "I'll take Chaos Space Marine players for $500, Alex!")?

And, Jeopardy questions are all even hundred dollars 200/400/600/800/1000 and 400/800/1200/1600/2000 in double jeopardy since 2001!

Grakmar wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.

What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!

Wait... are you proposing the question (where you'd say "What is a Chaos Space Marine player?"), or are you selecting the next answer (where you'd say "I'll take Chaos Space Marine players for $500, Alex!")?

And, Jeopardy questions are all even hundred dollars 200/400/600/800/1000 and 400/800/1200/1600/2000 in double jeopardy since 2001!

BOOM! Get Jeopardowned. Anyways...

tau need a new dex badly

from what most people tell me is tau were a top 4th ed army but got nerfed by the changes in 5th ed
As much as i want a new codex now i also dont want to be nerfed by a new edition again.

To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.

Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.

i can imagine that
I belive T3 armies do better at lower points epecially ones that have average model count.

I would like to see that customization for tau suits, however currently GW seems to think anything remotely more complex then getting a squad w/ Sargent and PF too complicated. Example 4th edition nids codex to 5th edition, where did the biomorphs go? Anyway I think they should give the tau a ton of new stuff, from suits to guns to alien auxiliaries. In the fluff currently they have a bunch that are missing, or so I've heard. Like Nisscar, Naga, and Deriug. plus add more Kroot options cause why not please those people who want to run a kroot mercenary list, is not like they're aren't Kroot to fit every slot.

Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.

Tau can win with a good general and a good list, but most units in the codex aren't usable in an environment that's competitive at all. I'm generally a player, and I can see Tau will have trouble in most situations right now. They and Sisters need new rules and models really badly.

I want tau to become an army that's about the options you take not what you put hem on.

I want the most access to usrs and other unique abilities through upgrades.

I want to choose between jump and jet pack
I want to choose stealth field generators

The one thing that has always struck me is that tau vehicles use the same frame. They just add different options. Why not make the army like that. I buy a frame for 60. Add front armour for 10. Add a rail gun for 40. Add a d pod for 20(ya guys we can't complain about costs while a d pod Is 5 pts)

What if I could add boosters to crisis suits or stealth or anything really. Give us 5 hard points but only 3 work for weapon systems. Let us make incredibly different units with our suits.

And for god sakes fix the fire warrior

Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.

Placing well at one tournament is meaningless, it proves nothing. In order for an army to be considered "competitive" it has to place like that consistently, and they don't.

In all honesty though that's probably just because people are bored with Tau and playing with them isn't fun anymore. A good Tau player could probably take them to a tournament and do okay, but it's so frustrating trying to play with them because everything you do has to be perfect, you can't make any mistakes. Even a tiny mistake at deployment could cost you the game. Also, there's only really one good list, and playing with the same exact list for years straight can get kinda old.

docbrown wrote:ya guys we can't complain about costs while a d pod Is 5 pts

Of course we can complain. Disruption Pods are the only thing in the book that are undercosted. Literally every other unit/vehicle/weapon/wargear is overcosted.

No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up

docbrown wrote:tau need a new dex badly

from what most people tell me is tau were a top 4th ed army but got nerfed by the changes in 5th ed
As much as i want a new codex now i also dont want to be nerfed by a new edition again.

I don't know what "most people" you have been talking to.

Tau have never been a top army in any edition. In 3rd and 4th they were reasonably competitive in the hands of a good player, but less competitive than a stronger codex army in the hands of the same player.

Yep. This sums Tau up. Any army can be good in the hands of a reasonably good general.

But some armies can be good in the hands of a reasonably incompetent general.

Tau are not one of those armies.

Sure, someone could theoretically take Tau and with perfection place top in half a dozen things.

But then they could take Space Wolves and do so much more.

docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up

Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.

Yay, finally somebody got the thing with tau right!!! XD

SonicPara wrote:

docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up

Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.

again you are missing the point
read what i say
i am explaining that Dpods need to go up
not that other costs need to stay
i even listed lower cost points
but you saw one sentence and took it out of context

Tau were a top army at the close of 4th edition. Scott Simpson won multiple tournaments, got a perfect battle point score at one of them. I won the Big Waaagh at the close of 4th and scott got 2nd at the same event(120 people if I remember correctly). Tau scored 1st and 2nd respectively. I can't think of anyone ever that has gotten a perfect battle score at a big tournament besides him.

If you knew what you were doing with them at the close of 4th they were one of the best codex's in the game.

docbrown wrote:

SonicPara wrote:

docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up

Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.

again you are missing the point
read what i say
i am explaining that Dpods need to go up
not that other costs need to stay
i even listed lower cost points
but you saw one sentence and took it out of context

You two are disagreeing to agree.

Lol yep

CpatTom wrote:

StormForged wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)

So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.

Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)

Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.

It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!

Don't forget to mention complicated:
'Taking Suit A gives you options B and C, which gives you access to Wargear 1, 2, 3, and Banana. If you take Banana your suit now takes the characteristics of Suit 'Purple' but cannot take options D and Z, but you can take more Banana's for your suit if you choose to. If you don't take the Banana for Suit A then you can upgrade your Suit to the Woof Variant, and can select Wargear 20, 33, and 945.'
Instead of over-developing Suits, why not improve the stats on the ones we have now? An Exta Toughness +1 here and maybe a Ballistic Skill +1 there, maybe a bonding knife equipped, throw in some more support weapons and presto! More variety without the splitting head-aches of diversity!

Tau players are smart. They can figure it out.

Pick pilot level. Ws Bs L I
Pick Suit size. T W Sv
Pick Weapon and Support systems.

Done.

yes, Tau players can figure it out.
their opponents on the other hand, won't have the first clue what's facing them, even on second glance, if they're not quite experienced in playing against Tau. I think that's the bigger objection here.

It has the same problem they had with the 4th edition Tyranid book.

Tyranid players had no problems making their own army and customising the statlines of all their guys. But for the opponent it was like reading a whole new codex every time they read a Tyranid players list before a game.

then just give us 5 variations each with there own entry each has different gear and upgrades available

also we need more options for tanks

rail head
ion head
skyray

for an advanced tech army we should get a little better then that

maybe plasma cannons
Suped up Missile pod array

Or the option to give drones ANYTHING
then put said drones on vehicles
combine with multi tracker and you got a scary vehicle.

Hmm Hammerheads with plasma cannon and 2 TL MP's

-Loki- wrote:It has the same problem they had with the 4th edition Tyranid book.

Tyranid players had no problems making their own army and customising the statlines of all their guys. But for the opponent it was like reading a whole new codex every time they read a Tyranid players list before a game.

The pilot, suit, gear system is a wishlist, I recognize that, but its the dreams of more than a single build that galavant through my dreams.

Doesn't seem that bad in terms of complexity though. Honestly, some guys would think anything that isnt razorspam is complex cause its not spaez murhines.

Marines are the downfall of 40k

Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.

On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine

docbrown wrote:Marines are the downfall of 40k

Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.

On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine

Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.