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My main army is tau, but I also have orks, chaos marines and iron hands.

Yet I get the most fun out of playing tau. My orks are simply walkers and boyz, my chaos is troops, infinite troops and obliterators, and my iron hands are bikers, landspeeders and vehicles.

Each army I have has a different theme, true my tau have battlesuits, but they need them. It's easier to win with any of my other armies, to the point where it's almost laughably easy in some cases, but with tau it's not that way.

I've been playing one 1850 list for 5 weeks at my FLGS and the two tables at my house. Undefeated vs blood angels, orks, grey knights, marines, CSM, and tyranids. I enjoy working for my win, and being rewarded with good tactics.

List here for those wondering, yes, I'm running an ethereal:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408114.page

That's not to say tau don't have their problems, as expressed in this thread already.

I just hope the new codex, when it comes, stays with the tau's core belief of no melee combat, and doesn't put ethereals in tau dreadknights or some crap.

warboss wrote:

docbrown wrote:Marines are the downfall of 40k

Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.

On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine

Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.

Don't get me wrong marines exist. But it can't be about the marines.

When I ask if fire warriors should be bs4 I shouldn't get an answer "tau are not space marines. Tau cannot shoot as good as a marine"
When I ask if tankbustas should get the tank hunters rule I shouldn't hear "but my devastators don't get tank hunters why should an ork"

Marines get puffed up like noones business. Marines are the standard. Meq is a unit we use to measure the worth of ones army. It's to much. Where is the t3 sv3 army. Why is there so many marine armies but 1 guard army

Ideally you should have a nice mix of armies not a clump of comparable ones.

I'd like:
2 guard codecies
Tau
Orks
Eldar
Dark eldar
Daemons
Chaos (the guard equivalent)
Chaos sm
Nids
Necrons
Grey knights
Blood angels
Space wolves
1 other sm chapter

Remove the generic sm codex. While I'm at it "why are almost all xenos t3
I get all sm are meq but you think we could have 1 alien with meq profile ?

Rumor has it that 6th edition will have more of a xenos focus, could be wrong though.

I still don't understand why a Fire Warrior, one of the Tau elite, is weaker than an ordinary guardsman. Aren't ordinary guardsmen supposed to be meat shields?

FrozenSoul80 wrote:I still don't understand why a Fire Warrior, one of the Tau elite, is weaker than an ordinary guardsman. Aren't ordinary guardsmen supposed to be meat shields?

Well tbh I dont care if its weaker (by this you mean lower Str right?). Since they try to stay out of mele combat it makes sense.

Elite trained gretchins arnt going to be the same as elite trained marines, and as such maybe the tau have to work to get their BS3, whereas guardsmen get this after little work and a large genetic component?


Im happy with the codex atm, I like most of the things in it. Sure I would love to field some vespids or kroot, or krootox that dont kill 3 things then get destroyed the next turn (but even infiltrating kroot as a short term distraction can be used wisely). I love firewarriors, maybe a bit expensive but not too bad. Suits are awesome, and the devilfish is pretty hardy, just not super powerful (and needs recosting).

As stated before there are alot of nul units in the codex, which for me makes it a bit stale.

When I pick up a codex I usually read the rules. I picked up DE: they can field tonnes of transports, run around and shoot, kill nearly anything with their guns and kick ass in close combat. Sure they have bad saves but you have a 10AV tank to protect you (for a bit). They also can run webway portal armies, how awesome is that? And wrack and grotesque armies with feel no pain and T4+? awesome!

Tyranids not the best but: Can run swarm armies, MC armies, tunneling Trygon armies, deep strike armies, and even get that nice tyrant rule to let a troop choice outflank. Sure they have alot of null units too but they have some interesting play options. And I love them.

Tau: Well... I can take alot of suits... or make a gunline with firewarriors. or.. make a bigger gunline? maybe change a broadside to a hammerhead?

The lack of options in battle really annoys me. I want to do multiple things, I want to shock my opponent or at least make him think, rather than "oh its tau, let me pull out my standard 101 tau killing list again".
New xeno's? I will prolly say no now then realise they are badass and say yes later lol.

p.s. I do not play competitively.

warboss wrote:Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.

Agreed, but I wont let the fact that they (sub par marine players) don't know what a Xeno codex is, let alone how they work, be a reason as to why a codex can't be a little more "complex".

Different (relevant) builds is good, different (army) play styles is good, different aesthetic is good, and different is what makes the factions interesting.

Thranriel wrote: Sure they have alot of null units too.

I'm not sure that the majority of my Elites choices is acceptable for the number of 'null' units

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Thranriel wrote: Sure they have alot of null units too.

I'm not sure that the majority of my Elites choices is acceptable for the number of 'null' units

Sorry I wasnt meaning to sound as if it was alright, jsut the fact that at least when I play my tyranids I have a few choices on how to run my army. They obviously have more choices in general then tau so its a bit easier to make a list, but for both codices I think having the large (proportionally) amount of null units is fairly awful.

Changes I'd like...

Firewarriors BS4 - they're well trained just like imp vets so why not?

Markerlights not heavy - they aren't heavy weapons they're laser pointers, there is no point this being heavy. Rolling to hit is enough.

Hammer-heads in groups 1-3 + Rear armour 11 - like guard have for their battle tanks

Somehow they need something better than what they have now for combat. Not sure what you can do as the character of the army would suffer if it was changed

6th Ed
Weapons to be rapid fire at 1/2 range not just 12 inches

There's other stuff I'd like to see changed too but really just this would be helpfull

docbrown wrote: Where is the t3 sv3 army?
While I'm at it "why are almost all xenos t3
I get all sm are meq but you think we could have 1 alien with meq profile ?

Sisters of Battle. Honestly!

Are you being sarcastic? Necrons are the army with meq profile. Regular immortals have ws4 str4 t4 and a 3+ save only differing in that they have I2 and a better gun. Yes warriors went down but most have remained close to meq levels. This is because they are the ancient implacable death machines with technology we cannot begin to comprehend so they get tough troops.

Out of all non marine armies only two (SOB and Necrons) have regular access to 3+ armour and only the necrons have heavy armour with high st and t. This fits the established theme and background of each army as well as giving a lot of variety.

BTW have there been any rumours of people seeing Tau sculpts or plastics recently?

Please don't try and bypass the language filter, it's there for a reason. reds8n

I forgot about the necrons since they left shelves. Nm then.

Still. The whole thing still spats meq is better marines are meq. Play marines.

obsidianaura wrote:Changes I'd like...

Firewarriors BS4 - they're well trained just like imp vets so why not?

Markerlights not heavy - they aren't heavy weapons they're laser pointers, there is no point this being heavy. Rolling to hit is enough.

Hammer-heads in groups 1-3 + Rear armour 11 - like guard have for their battle tanks

Somehow they need something better than what they have now for combat. Not sure what you can do as the character of the army would suffer if it was changed

6th Ed
Weapons to be rapid fire at 1/2 range not just 12 inches

There's other stuff I'd like to see changed too but really just this would be helpfull

I disagree with the Firewarriors at BS4. They are guard equivalent not elite IG. There is a provision in the book already for BS4 Firewarriors. They are the elite IG equivalent.

Firewarriors being BS4 and then allowing them 2 shots at max range (if 6ed rumor is right) being str 5 would be really painful.
As i've said in other posts I like the idea of synergy between units relying on markerlights to enhance this power. Now if fluff = game rules, then even then who knows how good in direct comparison without training a human is compared to a tau. Sure they have lots of training and technology, but if you have a serious problem (the tau not being able to focus as fast as a human) your accuracy will suffer.

BS3 is fine BS4 would make them cost more and tbh I dont want that.

But ofcourse its what the rules say and not what I want lol

We can but hope the tau do indeed see an update sooner rather than later.

As this is now more of a general discussion concerning the Tau, I'm going to move this to 40k general. I'm sure as/when the time comes there'll be a thread on the news and rumours board.

SonicPara wrote:
In a world where 25-33% of the players are bringing 15+ missile launchers to the table (Missile Launchers that wound a suit on a 2, ignore armor, and cause instant death) and everyone else has something equally absurd (psyrifleman, darklight spam, meltavets) it is the tertiary objectives that are the Tau's problem, sure. Tau are in the toilet for a number of reasons, all of which were already mentioned. Overcosted, underpowered, constricting rules (Pathfinder devilfish especially), obsolete "sergeant" system, and countless more. Yes, Tau can win games. So can the new Sisters. Just because an army can win games against the right opponent/right build, it doesn't mean that they are appropriately balanced with the other armies in the game.

~eyeroll~ Gotta love the hyperbole. Every third or fourth player is a sit-and-shoot space wolf player....right. Funny...there's exactly one SW player in my whole county, and he doesn't spam 3x5 missile launchers. At Adepticon, I saw maybe 10% SW. At Ard Boyz semis, two out of 42, and I can't even say that they all played missile spam. You must suffer from really boring meta where you live.

Darklance spam is unthreatening when the lances are mounted in AV10 and AV11 skimmers and tau can wipe 7+ from the sky each turn (meaning that the nine lances mounted in ravagers are gone on turn one!), not to mention that they first have to hit, then wound, then get past a 4+ cover save, meaning that it takes about four of them to average one kill. Ditto the meltavets, except that they are impossible to spam and can't close fast enough to do anything useful.

I'm not saying tau don't need fixing, I'm saying that they're perfectly capable of winning 90% of their games, but they're just completely crippled in terms of being able to get to that next level of maxing out their battle points. Going 3-0 in a three round tournament isn't enough when 5-6 people do so, it's the ability to prevent your opponents from so much as contesting a table quarter, or the ability to claim at least four of a possible five objectives that counts at the top, and in that aspect, certain armies just don't have it...including tau, and that's a far greater obstacle to fielding them in a tournament than the weaknesses in their codex.

They're perfectly workable, though, and sometimes even brutal, in any format that goes by simple W-L-D, and therefore in friendly games.

Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Boy... I just got offered an awesome Tau army in trade for my GK.... but seeing these rumors I might have to pass on it and wait til new models/rules come out.

Right after i start my tau

docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Game balance and differentiation.

Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.

Indeed, I once was one of those guys that wanted bs 4.
Then I understood the Tau.

I mean it would just be really really boring if all units had bs 4
(or 5 with some cheap upgrades).

yeah i mean think of the markerlights. The army works via synergy and markerlights are this synergy. if you give your baseline troops BS4, markerlights (one of the coolest things imo about tau) are fairly redundant. sure you can get rid of cover saves and things like that, but the main bonus for me anyway is the BS increase (I play against MEQs alot).

And to have this BS4 with a str 5 ap 5 weapon their price would increase even more. No thanks.

Its a tactical tool and should be kept that way.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.

There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.

Eldar does too.

the thing is markerlights are not an easy thing to use

Pathfinders are squishy
Skyray's need them for themselves
Marker drones are expensive
Sniper Drones cost you a heavy slot

for what it takes to get decent markerlight quantity its kind of a problem. Not to mention that its quite easy to kill whatever brings them.

Besides im stating from a logical standpoint:
the army that relies soley on shooting low volume high strength shots should not have the same aim as an army that focus's on Low strengh High Volume shots.
Tau shoot 16% better than orks thats ridiculus.

Ok I always see this stupid argument that tau fire warriors shouldn't be BS 4.

Guard conscripts are BS 2 and WS 2
Guard infantry are BS 3 and WS 3
Guard vets are BS 4 and WS 3

Infantry have +1 BS and +1 WS
Vets have +2 BS and +1 WS

Now Tau Fire warriors have BS 3 and WS 2

Note that tau fire warriors consistently train only for ranged combat, and nothing else. Note that they only have a +1 increase in BS skill.

Considering the fact that guard infantry training is most likely much shorter in length than tau fire warrior training, we can assume that tau should have BS 4, since no other increases in base skill occurred.

I think Tau should be kept at bs 3 but made cheaper. What I personally love to see is more Xenos. Like a Kroot HQ choice something along the lines of WS 5-6 BS 3-4 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3-4 LD 9 Sv 6-5+ with some nifty options. I think the kroot entirely aren't used to their potential I mean the kroot can get tougher, grow wings, ride knarlocs. I think kroot vets that can be modified would be an awesome edition. And I don't mean modified like CSM possessed. The thing is the Tau are an empire that tries to get everyone to join it the codex should reflect that by having more diversity.

Gameplay =/= Backstory

Nuf said.

My argument is simple
Tau train only for shooting AND are bred specifically how to do so

That's 2 points for bs4.

docbrown wrote:My argument is simple
Tau train only for shooting AND are bred specifically how to do so

That's 2 points for bs4.

Not true. They also take a 4 hour correspondence course in self defense called "How to hit like a little girl".

While I disagree that an average FW should be bs4, I do see the argument that EVERY suit (stealth, broadside, crisis, etc) be bs4. According to the fluff, aren't you supposed to have a minimum 8 years of combat experience before you're eligible to don a suit? Combined with the advanced tech in the suit, you'd think they'd be able to hit a target at 50 paces better than Joe Guardsmen, inducted 2 months earlier, with his iron sight lasgun.

I think base bs should be 4 all around because this is their purpose. They are bread to shoot. Just like the air caste is bred to pilot. They should all be bs4

Remember dire avengers have the same gun strength double shots and bs4 ws4

Shorter life-span, poorer eyesight, much of it is made up for with technology eg. Markerlight's and super accurate weapons. It's about balance. Internally, the basic trooper for their army is not a Super Soldier. They're the infantry linesmen. The Tau are all about ranged combat, BS3 is a good place to build up from. Shas'ui are the veterans, they could have BS4, increasing with rank. Making them BS4 pretty much makes Markerlight's redundant, especially with such high S weapons. Like Killkrazy said, they have a different play-style, they require coordination, this should stay the same.
Then of course you have external balance. Basic Firewarriors do not equal IG vets or Space Marines. For fluff purposes they should not have BS4, for game purposes they should remain at BS3 with appropriate changes. Asking for BS4, S5 rapid fire at half range and a reduced cost is extreme.