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I also agree, standard fire Warriors should stay at BS 3 , but saying that they are the standard for the Tau military I also see a reasoning for battlesuits to be at a BS 4 average due to their reportedly Elite status, or allow them to HW targeting arrays for that boost.

And a Precedence for pathfinders being at BS 4 could be made if they were established as elite unit type, kinda like the IG stormtropers, and working in synergy with the other Tau units would make their markerlights more effective, therefore making the other tau better shots.

One thing I do hope to see in the next codex is more and varied upgrades for squads and hopefuly a reduction in point costs for some drones, namely marker drones.

Of course there are volumes of tweaks and additions we could wishlist for the Tau, but one thing I dearly hope they dont do..is remove the style of play that has developed for this army, one of the few races in 40k that truly needs teamwork to be at its best, with no one unit being the end all be all of the list.

But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites

I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4

I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.

Eldar are bs4. What makes them so good. Astartes are biomedically enhanced super soldiers. Tau are"genetically engineered". Keep in mind vets are also ws3 not 2.

I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.

Like seriously. The etherals separated the tau castes into groups that would handle certain affairs. These groups would not cross breed in order to strengthen their purpose. Groups of these members commit their life to this purpose only. Does this sound like the production of your average soldier.

Marker lights serve to do more then Bs increase so it won't make them irrelevant.

Why is everyone so hard on the tau and short changing them. And please don't try to say "there not space marines"

I find nothing wrong with Firewarriors being BS3 as long as the Crisis Suits are BS4, as pointed out by other posters, there is just no reason why veteran Tau Firewarriors loaded down with a tone of electronic systems would be BS3. I just hope that come the next codex, markerlights are integrated properly into the army, and made assault class weapons.

What I would like to see done to Firewarriors and other line troopers is allow them to carry you basic stock meltagun and flamer. I see no reason to deny these weapons to Firewarriors as such weapons would not encumber them, and we really shouldn't need elite troops and vehicles just to carry a basic meltagun around. This would free things like Crisis Suits and Piranha to equip proper heavy weapons.

docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites
I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4
I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.

Fair enough.

Eldar are bs4. What makes them so good. Astartes are biomedically enhanced super soldiers. Tau are"genetically engineered". Keep in mind vets are also ws3 not 2.

Eldar were (if this wasn't retconned in the new Space Mummy Codex) actually genetically engineered, besides that they are completely devoted to what they do, and they have had a long time to practice. Tau aren't "genetically engineered" in any sense comparable to the actual genetic engineering that goes on in 40k. Yes, the big Tau tribes men with the best genes is selected to breed with the partners presenting the best traits; however, the Etherals arent getting all weird nazi science and making super Tau.

I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.

Balance, although it may or may not be balanced now, that is why your FW cant shoot like vets.

Like seriously. The etherals separated the tau castes into groups that would handle certain affairs. These groups would not cross breed in order to strengthen their purpose. Groups of these members commit their life to this purpose only. Does this sound like the production of your average soldier.

If I seperate an advanced high school chemistry class into football postitions I may or may not have a very good team. Being separate doesnt make them good

Marker lights serve to do more then Bs increase so it won't make them irrelevant.

What if 6th reduces the amount of cover saves that are on the table? Then what do you use your markers for? Leadership? Cool, just give me more guys with BS 6 instead (Thats hyperbole).

Why is everyone so hard on the tau and short changing them. And please don't try to say "there not space marines"

Because they are blue, from the eastern fringe, and not Ultramarines.

docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites

I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4

I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.

Orks are shooty army with BS2. Tau are just fine with the current BS.

You have some gold points there

Counters
1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.
2 your chem team straw man thing is just invalid
3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.
4 so tau can't have high bs because 6th might make high bs's op. geez why can't a xEnos have something a marine has. Oh it might break thE game.
5 balance is achieved many ways. Making an army less effective then it should logically be is not the best of these.
6 while I'm AT it why are drones bs2 that's just dumb.
7 why should an army that relies on few high probability attacks be stuck with average rolls to hit. Is it that odd that a shooting focused army that is not gunspam guard can aim there few guns as good or better then a cc focused marine.
8 ass it stands tau are often a 4+ 3+ army. Why cant we be a 3+ 3+ army. Armies are supposed to be scary. If we can't spam 4+ 5+ enough to be scary why can we bring a few 3+3+. And a select few 2+2+ shots. Let marker lights be used for ld and cover only. No bs upgrades. That can be how tau are scary

docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.

Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.

Backfire wrote:

docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites

I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4

I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.

Orks are shooty army with BS2. Tau are just fine with the current BS.

Orks are also the premier VOF army moron. Bs3 orks is truly terrifying.
Besides orks are bs2 because THEY BARELY AIM. Orks point and shoot for the satisfaction of shooting. Orks just haphazardly do things until they get results. That is not a good comparison.
Orks defiantly make sense at bs2
So 3 Shooty armies as an example
Orks 2 Ridiculous spam of fire with decent strength. Low hits high wounds
Guard 3 massive spam of low strength weapons. Average hits low wounds
Tau 4 small clusters of high power weapons. High hits high wounds

I really think tau fill a nice gap of high probability shooting with moderate numbers and profiles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.

Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.

As they are I hate markerlights. To me they are a dumb concept. I like the idea but the excursion is poor. They are on fragile inefficient units or they shackle other unts with other responsibilities. On a conceptual level the idea of the shooting army being unable to compare to non dedicated units is dumb.

I would prefer markerlights be used for things other then aim. Cover leadership deeps trikes missiles night fighting ect.


Side note. What if devilfish could take marker light?

I see nothing wrong with Devilfishes with markerlights. Hell, markerlights everywhere are cool. They just need to be made non-heavy weapons and I think that will make them much more useful.

There will be Black Templar codex next year.
Tau will probably came out after them.

I can agree with docbrown that FW should be better at shooting seeing as how the Tau are supposed to be a highly advanced race, as well as the fact that fire warriors are supposed to dedicate their whole lives to the task of war and shooting. If the bs increase is asking to much than I would like to see a points drop by one for the basic fire warrior, or the ability to pay extra points to carry a veteran squad of fire warriors that have the increased bs. Marker lights are cool, but I do not see them as a viable option on anything else besides path finders, I find path finders to be a great unit as they are. Why not just tweak them a bit rather than dish out marker lights to all the other units? If anything I want the option of taking marker lights on just about everything taken away since it is useless and distracting. In summary all I am saying is

FW tweak
cost 1 point less for basic warrior and add the option to take veterans that have increased bs
adjust pathfinders slightly perhaps? Though I do not see much of a problem with them at the moment.
Take away the marker light option from other units to allow them to specialize in what they do.

One last tid pit as to why they should not have marker lights on for all the different units: It goes against the Tau's fluff. The tau have their society divided to specialize in specific things, air caster for flying, fire caste for fighting, etc. It does not make sense to have each part of the fire warrior cast spend time in the use of marker lights, they should just have on specific group that specializes in it, namely path finders. Let the crisis suits worry about fire power, and the fire warriors accuracy, and the stealth suits...stealth? Idk I just do not really like stealth suits that much at the moment, unless you use them in a deepstrike suicide attack behind enemy armor.lol But still thats not all that great, so they obviously need a pretty big overhaul. I am sure you get what I am saying at this point though, just my thoughts on the matter

Righ here is a counter argument.

I take 2 guys from a random school, and in a fit of evil genius I decide to make them shoot pulse rifles for years on end at targets.

One guy had a genetic trait which means that he cant see very far in focus. This causes his shooting to be very hit and miss, and as such at the end of two years he still comes out fairly bad (though much better than before).
THe other guy is fairly normal, kicks ass and comes out fine.

Sure if you genetically choose this so that everyone you could ever pick will have a better than average shot, thats awesome, but its going to take a long time for it to be effective for everyone, and to a degree you are wanting (remember this is like 2-4 years of training, if you can genetically alter that in a short space of time, then go on!)


Now assume that these two people are different species entirely. One species has been around for much longer and has been using firearms for a fairly long time. As such it has probably benefitted from genetic benefits such as enhanced eyesight and focus (as i highly doubt "shooting" is a genetic trait). Infact even while being hunted these will have been selected for.

The tau on the other hand have had a much shorter time to evolve. Sure their technology has grown at an exponential rate but what of the genetics? Obviously I cant answer that. But if we are going on time they are not going to be anywhere near as good. Sure they can see along a wider spectrum of colours but they also have a lack of focus. Training this guy for a few years may result in a better output, but will that output be better than a highly evolved race who started out being better than you? I think not.

And as such the tau being tau invented markerlights and target locks for them to keep up with the times.



tldr:
two species do not start at the same level for a basic trait,
two species will not learn at the same rate,
humans are more evolved, tau are not
tau use technology to get over this.

Brother SRM wrote:

docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.

Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.

This, really. Cadians are much better than Firewarriors, I don't see them with BS4. Reduce their points and make Markerlights non-heavy, problem solved.

JoeyHeadwounds wrote:I was just looking through the Tau HQ list on GWs site and noticed that all of the HQ choices except for the Tau Crisis Battlesuit Commander are listed as no longer available. I don't know if it means anything nor do I claim that it does, just thought it was interesting and that someone might want to know...

They're probably Finecasting them. At my local GW shop, the clerk said that any of the metal models you don't see are being Finecasted, or are going to be. I want my bike chaplain

Thran not fair. You can't use a negative example to doubt a positive result. Itsnot just about removing those who are not as good but about isolating those who show talent.

But fluff is pointless anyways as they will just recon it if they feel like.

From a gameplay standpoint it doesn't make sense that you can have a spectrum of VOF over SOF but when you tip to one end you can't justify the most polarized army Acctually being thebest at that end of the spectrum.

Ikon you guys like your interdependent thing but the reality is aside from pathfinders and seeker missiles nothing else really depends on anything.

Now if pathfinders were troops and I could bring msu of them nd also had a decent fast attack choice maybe that could work.
Having more then 3 units of markerlights means that it's hard to eliminate them.

If this is so I would like some fire points on the fish.

Now we make markerlights kick ass. Reducing ld. Ignoring certain usrs. Ect.

I can get behind that

Tbh i have no idea about that positive negative stuff but ill just nod my head and say ok lol.

More markerlights, even on cheap troops would be nice (like you said pathfinders), I dont quite get what they are doing in fast attack anyway. Add a few more interesting ways for me to actually play rather than just the standard build and a few newish units and im happy.

Kilkrazy wrote:

docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Game balance and differentiation.

Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.

Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.

Have I been cheating?

iproxtaco wrote:make Markerlights non-heavy, problem solved.

This. Making Markerlights assault one would make Pathfinders fit with 'Fast Attack' choice and also shore up the fluff that Pathfinders are the Scouts of the Fire Caste, able to marker targets for Broadsides, Hammerheads, and Piranhas before the enemy knows whats coming.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Game balance and differentiation.

Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.

Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.

Have I been cheating?

No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.

I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.

Thranriel wrote:Tbh i have no idea about that positive negative stuff but ill just nod my head and say ok lol.

More markerlights, even on cheap troops would be nice (like you said pathfinders), I dont quite get what they are doing in fast attack anyway. Add a few more interesting ways for me to actually play rather than just the standard build and a few newish units and im happy.

agreed
if they cam become reliable/durable i would be ok with them

if markerlights could work with a mech tau without a footed element then everything would come together

sidenote:
what if vespids could carry fusion blasters?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Game balance and differentiation.

Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.

Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.

Have I been cheating?

No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.

I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.

Whilst I agree with you, bs 12 is not quite correct. ; )
The limit is at 5.^^

IPS wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4

Game balance and differentiation.

Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.

Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.

Have I been cheating?

No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.

I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.

Whilst I agree with you, bs 12 is not quite correct. ; )
The limit is at 5.^^

He's right Kil. Check the last sentence of the 2nd bullet point under Markerlights on p29 of Tau codex.

Kilkrazy wrote:
No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.

I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.

If Tau Fire Warrior should have BS12 Space Marines should have 15.

You have some gold points there as well.

Counters:

docbrown wrote: 1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.

It is technically genetic engineering, and the Tau would do it faster on account of shortened life spans yes, but in this setting it is important to differentiate between selective breeding as a tool for genetic guiding, and legitimately engineered genetics.

2 your chem team straw man thing is just invalid

I am attempting to challenge the assumption that by simply dividing them into groups, that they have become proficient in the task assigned to them. I used the example because while it is likely the chem team may not be good at sports (as many would assume), they may just as well produce a championship caliber team. I am simply using it as a means to show that the Etheral's divisions to the Tau does not equate to a positive outcome. (Nor a negative one either, it is just a moot point)

3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.

Total commitment can mean increased performance; however, it doesn't necessarily mean it matches the abilities that might be manifested by a master Engineer (The Old Ones got it pretty right with the Eldar and Orks). I can't know the methodologies would equal each other based on the amount Tau focus (although I highly doubt it, Using Space Marines as an Example vs the regular guardsmen, I think it quite evident that engineering is so far superior.)

4 so tau can't have high bs because 6th might make high bs's op. geez why can't a xEnos have something a marine has. Oh it might break thE game.

They could have a high bs, if they payed for it accordingly. (and they should if they do pay accordingly).

5 balance is achieved many ways. Making an army less effective then it should logically be is not the best of these.

Agreed, but we don't always get the best method.

6 while I'm AT it why are drones bs2 that's just dumb.

I don't program A.I. but it seems hard. Plus, if the Tau had drones half as capable as Fire Warriors, well, just use them instead. Then you get frisbee orks (Now morale tests on suits because their drones who are supposed to get shot, get shot is kinda dumb, but hey, thats another point entirely)

7 why should an army that relies on few high probability attacks be stuck with average rolls to hit. Is it that odd that a shooting focused army that is not gunspam guard can aim there few guns as good or better then a cc focused marine.

As I believe stated by someone else, it was to force synergy with Marker Lights (which were gimped by point costs and heavy status, and networked, etc.)

8 as it stands tau are often a 4+ 3+ army. Why cant we be a 3+ 3+ army. Armies are supposed to be scary. If we can't spam 4+ 5+ enough to be scary why can we bring a few 3+3+. And a select few 2+2+ shots. Let marker lights be used for ld and cover only. No bs upgrades. That can be how tau are scary

I would like that.

The main rules allow BS over 5 and there is a mechanism whereby you reroll misses on a 6 or something. I can't remember the details.

Kill, the highest BS is 10. There is nothing over 10.

And BRB also say that BS of 6 and more are RARE, it is reserved for galaxies finest marksman.
And FW are just ordinary infantry. They don't deserve more than 4, sorry.

I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.

Markerlights add to BS.

BS can be over 5.

It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.

Markerlights add to BS.

BS can be over 5.

It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.

It matters, nothing in 40k have stats over 10. be it I, BS, As or A. 10 is top for everything.
And basic troops cannot have the same accuracy as the most veteran Vindicator assassins.
Even Space Marines have better accuracy then FW thanks to their centuries of combat experience that Tau lack.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.

Markerlights add to BS.

BS can be over 5.

It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.

Yes, but the rule for Markerlights says that they can only increase up to 5.

Other models can have over 5, but Tau can only get to 5 with Markerlights, no more.

They should completely change the rules for marker lights.