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A long while back, Kill made a Tau wishlisting thread for Tau, and it had some interesting ideas for markerlights. I'll try and find the posts for you guys.

edit: Found it.

Ledabot wrote:

svendrex wrote:

I also feel like the book is a little empty. Right now, it seem slike the only thing in the elite slot is Crisis suits. What if Pathfinders were Elite, and were a little better (BS4?).


What should Markerlights do? I am not sure the old system is what it should be. I think that there should be a chart as to what penalties a unit has depending on the number of markerlight hits. All units can take advantage of the markerlight. Tokens last one turn. All results are cumulative. For Example
1 hit: -1 cover save
2 hits: All hits count a pinning
3 hits: -1 cover save
4 hits: Re-roll to hit in the shooting phase against this unit.
.......and so on

I think that the seeker missiles should just fire on their own. I think that the Skyray needs some work, as in I do not like it just as a big rack for seekers. What about changing it into an anti-skimmer vehicle, similar to the Hydra.

I would like it if the seeker had some power over deep striking. See above.
-1 to cover is ok because of the large amount of cover out there isn 5th but what about these.

all units shooting at the marked unit get these bonuses.
1 hit: +1 to BS can go above 5.
2 hits: marked unit gets -1 to cover save
3 hits: all shots fired count as pinning
4 hits: Re-roll to hit in the shooting phase against this unit.
more hits count as -1 to cover save for the marked unit.
1 markerlight can be removed to fire a seeker missile at the marked unit. the blast template must be centerd on a unit in the unit that had a hit removed
the markerlight hits last only during the shooting phase they were fired in.

about the seeking missiles.
new rules for them could be.
one time, S8,AP3,barrage or ordanance or something. small blast
they are computer controled so count as having BS 5 for the template drifting
they would cost 20pts each and count as one weapon each. this way it would be much harder to destroy a skyray by taking out all its weapons, giving it a total of 12 at the most weapons. mwa ha ha.

reds8n wrote: As this is now more of a general discussion concerning the Tau, I'm going to move this to 40k general. I'm sure as/when the time comes there'll be a thread on the news and rumours board.

Took me a while to find out where the Tau rumour thread is hidden. Anyway.

Ghost21 is flooding Warseer with rumours. I am a bit reluctant to post these before any except his Dreadfleet rumours turned out to be definitely right, but here they are anyway:

ghost21 wrote:

So the Tau have the Kroot, Vespid and Demiurg now?

plus one more.. but yup (I'm not including the Nicassar).
(...)
None of the SC are human. 4 we've seen before some we haven't.
(...)
I think they will put in a paragraph saying humans are drafted into fire warrior teams. But don't expect models or separate rules.

I get the feeling we might see Commander Puretide in the next 'dex.

we won't... iceheart.... maybe

I would like to see different units being able to do different things with markerlight tokens. Have an aun call in a orbital strike on one. Let battle suits deep strike with no scatter on on. Then really strip down or out the basic marker light rules. Like not everyone will be able to use markerlights to ignore cover only rail guns can. Making things more compartmentalized rather then having one set of markerlight rules for every unit.

Counters:
docbrown wrote:
1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.

It is technically genetic engineering, and the Tau would do it faster on account of shortened life spans yes, but in this setting it is important to differentiate between selective breeding as a tool for genetic guiding, and legitimately engineered genetics.

3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.

Total commitment can mean increased performance; however, it doesn't necessarily mean it matches the abilities that might be manifested by a master Engineer (The Old Ones got it pretty right with the Eldar and Orks). I can't know the methodologies would equal each other based on the amount Tau focus (although I highly doubt it, Using Space Marines as an Example vs the regular guardsmen, I think it quite evident that engineering is so far superior.)

The Tau castes are actually genetically different, in the codex it says "High on isolated mountain peaks, tau soared on thermals, rising up from the plains on thin membranous wings" if wings aren't different genetics I don't know what is.

nomotog wrote:I would like to see different units being able to do different things with markerlight tokens. Have an aun call in a orbital strike on one. Let battle suits deep strike with no scatter on on. Then really strip down or out the basic marker light rules. Like not everyone will be able to use markerlights to ignore cover only rail guns can. Making things more compartmentalized rather then having one set of markerlight rules for every unit.

This is a excellent idea, would add a bit of complexity, but I love complex rules, markerlight effects could be based on the specific unit as suggested above, with a increase in effect based on number of ML hits.

Just a off the cuff idea but.

Markerlight hit uses (MLH )

default: (any unit)
1 MLH = seeker missle on target.

Infantry
as default or
1 MLH = +1 BS against target
2 MLH = +1 BS -1 to cover saves
3 MLH = +2 BS (max 5) -2 to cover saves

Battlesuits
as default or
1 MLH = weapons count as twin linked or if twin linked may fire seperate
2 MLH = as above and -1 to cover saves
3 MLH = as above and pinning

etc, etc, again these are just quick demo ideas, but you get the drift, could make Markerlight hits a comodity to spend and some units due to more advanced targeting systems could get more of a payout for them.

Its fun to use our imaginations

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

nomotog wrote:I would like to see different units being able to do different things with markerlight tokens. Have an aun call in a orbital strike on one. Let battle suits deep strike with no scatter on on. Then really strip down or out the basic marker light rules. Like not everyone will be able to use markerlights to ignore cover only rail guns can. Making things more compartmentalized rather then having one set of markerlight rules for every unit.

This is a excellent idea, would add a bit of complexity, but I love complex rules, markerlight effects could be based on the specific unit as suggested above, with a increase in effect based on number of ML hits.

Just a off the cuff idea but.

Markerlight hit uses (MLH )

default: (any unit)
1 MLH = seeker missle on target.

Infantry
as default or
1 MLH = +1 BS against target
2 MLH = +1 BS -1 to cover saves
3 MLH = +2 BS (max 5) -2 to cover saves

Battlesuits
as default or
1 MLH = weapons count as twin linked or if twin linked may fire seperate
2 MLH = as above and -1 to cover saves
3 MLH = as above and pinning

etc, etc, again these are just quick demo ideas, but you get the drift, could make Markerlight hits a comodity to spend and some units due to more advanced targeting systems could get more of a payout for them.

Its fun to use our imaginations

I was actually thinking it would make the rules easier. Rather then learning all the markerlight rules at once, you learn them when you lean about who uses them. It also gives the devs more freedom to have cool effect that don't get unbalanced because they can only be used when they are balanced.

Thats a good point, and would easily define who benifits from ML and who does not (kroot and such), may even be a cool upgrade for units not usually able to use them.

Another fun addition would be to make a ML hit allow some units to shoot as if they were a AA unit, help with all those flyers, or even reduce the saves for turbo boosting or some such.

There is alot of room to develop the Tau, I just hope they dont go the same route and make them yet another CC enabled army with shooting as a secondary, the Tau do not need to shoot the most , just shoot the best, and markerlights with a bit of re-tooling could go along way to make that happen.

I kind of want there to be a way to have markerlight tokens let stealth suits move about, but I can't think of a logical way for a marker light to help you be stealthy. They could also be used as a way to cover land. Maybe have an engineer able to deepstrike minefields on markerlight tokens.

Yeah I cant see how a Markerlight could enhance movement or stealth, but it could enhance anything that uses scatter or a to hit roll, ( I have used our RL marker lights in the Army, Laser designators and LRAZ and such ), and deep striking minefields is another good idea, either have it deployed by barracuda/tigerdhark, flyers what not or give the Tau something I have always felt they needed...Artillery.

A Tau artillery system could be used to do all kinds of nifty tricks and use a Drone guided launched explosive to keep the high tech tau approach to this weapon, to make it different from the IG arty.

I made some rules for this, and playtested them, worked well and my buddies thought it was a nice addition.
here are the rules if interested.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/346850.page

I thought seeker missiles where meant to be tau artillery.

yeah I had that discussion in the thread, a seeker missle is a support / AT weapon, kinda like our hellfire missle , called in against a pinpoint target but with minimal blast or multi role, artillery is something used for suppresion area denial and mass casualty inflicting and the seeker does not fufill any of those roles.

Different tools for different jobs.

If they give us seekers with blast templates etc , that will be nice, but I still like arty, its what I do .

They are, but the prime seeker missiles would be fired from aircraft, not from ground based stuff. The skyray is serposed to be ground to air, and markerlight bring the air to ground stuff in.

Tau being as always described as a race that prefers the long range engagement of targets, and would be the most logical developers and users of artillery, as long as it is not static and go against the mont'ka and kauyon (sp) principles of warfare, which this system would not hinder but facilitate.
But I digress, here is hoping the GW people keep the tau developing in the style they have established and dont do a 180 on us.

Tau are always described as hunters. One shot one kill. Tracking trapping. Artillery is not really a hunting principle. Massive amounts of incarcerate shelling is more the IG.

well won't belabor the point but modern artillery is not even close to in-accurate, and yours and mine veiw of Tau military tendencies differ, I will leave it at that.

nomotog wrote:Tau are always described as hunters. One shot one kill. Tracking trapping. Artillery is not really a hunting principle. Massive amounts of incarcerate shelling is more the IG.

Nobody ever said it was massive amounts of "incarcerate" (who sends artillery to jail?) shooting. One could assume laser-designated artillery would be very accurate, precision strikes as is the Tau's mantra.

If you have laser designated artillery you basically have seeker missiles again, only now they are burst. It's likely that we are both thinking of about the same thing just calling it different names.

Exactly as Brother SRM stated even in our modern military we have a GPS guided round that uses a laser to accuire a grid..a 10 digit grid, making it accurate to within 1meter, might not dot the eye on your credit card, but pretty good, and the Tau are much more advanced than us.

and Hunting, tracking, and trapping in military terms is Probing, Recon, and envelopment, all areas where Artilllery plays its part. And as for hunting principles, flamers, gatling pulse weaponry, airbursting launchers, submunitions etc etc...dont seem like hunter tools, its war lad and everything plays a part.

The Tau's combat style that makes them fight like Real world modern troops is what drew me to it in the first place..not a bunch of loonies charging forward with sharp pointy things

(did not plan on re-tort but had somethin to say.)

Ya we are both thinking the same way. Just putting it differently.

dragoncat29 wrote:Counters:
docbrown wrote:
1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.

It is technically genetic engineering, and the Tau would do it faster on account of shortened life spans yes, but in this setting it is important to differentiate between selective breeding as a tool for genetic guiding, and legitimately engineered genetics.

3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.

Total commitment can mean increased performance; however, it doesn't necessarily mean it matches the abilities that might be manifested by a master Engineer (The Old Ones got it pretty right with the Eldar and Orks). I can't know the methodologies would equal each other based on the amount Tau focus (although I highly doubt it, Using Space Marines as an Example vs the regular guardsmen, I think it quite evident that engineering is so far superior.)

The Tau castes are actually genetically different, in the codex it says "High on isolated mountain peaks, tau soared on thermals, rising up from the plains on thin membranous wings" if wings aren't different genetics I don't know what is.

If there was a bs 3.5 I would take it but when it comes to the single shot army, being over represented in accuracy is better then under.
It is better to be equal to an avenger then to a guardsman because one is base value and one is sensually better then base.

Ws2 bs4 is a Shooty army
Ws3 bs3 is a basic army
Ws2 bs3 is a gakky army

Kroothawk wrote:Ghost21 is flooding Warseer with rumours. I am a bit reluctant to post these before any except his Dreadfleet rumours turned out to be definitely right, but here they are anyway:

His Necron Rumors were a bit hit and miss. Though he stated up front he had only seen an early play test codex (2-3 test codices prior to the final print)

Ghost 21 wrote:I probably shouldn't say this, but at least 2 of the named lords there are supposedly characters in the dex (from the names at least , though only found that out after reading FOD). At least one will get a figure (I've seen it, it had a version before but he was never released)

Hit and a miss: He was spot on with the FoD "Storm Caller" or in the codex "Imotekh the Stormlord". The next SC, which he later said was the Flayed one lord never showed up in the final codex.

Ghost21 wrote:ive heard november , ive also heard march 2012

November was correct. StickMonkey predicted a All-Hallow's Eve release prior to this. At the time, there was some debate whether this would mean October or November.

Ghost 21 wrote:not sure if its exactly a rumor but ive just been informed necrons will see the first of the resin figs

Wrong...just about everything else got finecast models before Necrons.

Ghost 21 wrote:warriors are not bieng redone there may be an aditional sprue representing upgrades, n the colours but otherwise no

Correct...well except for the different color rods...but then he did say "may".

Ghost 21 wrote:to be honest ive not heard of the jump infantry. then again i had only heard about 2 troop choices , the big necro giant , tomb spiders, some sort of necron artilery piece

There was a new jump infantry unit, though he doesn't deny thier existance completely. He is the first to mention a necron artilery piece...which may or may not have been one of the floating gun barges that made it into the second codex...too vague to know

Ghost21 wrote:ive heard of some sort of bodguard unit, but again not in the frst wave

Hit and a miss. Lychguard are what he is refering to. However, they were in the first wave.

Ghost21 wrote:i saw a copy of the draft rules for the necro giant , n all i can say is resurrection ability's with guns, and mele attacks that ignore saves

Nope...its a walker without ressurection or DCCW. Still, he does say it was draft rules and both StickMonkey and Tabitha previously stated it as being a MC. So maybe he did see a test copy where it was a MC.

Ghost21 wrote:oh and c'tan wont be in the book, it was silly to put them in the previous one i mean khorne isnt in codex chaos space marines or daemons is he?

Prior to this, there were rumors of a new specifically named C'tan like the Dragon. Ghost was the first to put this down. He was correct. There are no C'tan's in the Necron Codex...just shards.

Ghost21 wrote:remember the imperium reforge / re tool those weapons for there [assassins] to use

and i never saw a phase sword in the old necron dex, and don't think we will see one now (at least not in anything I've seen)

Correct. There are no longer any phase weapons that ignore invulnerable saves.

Ghost 21 wrote:

Anything on Wraiths ?

They are probably the "new" Flayer-like Fast Attack choice mentioned in the OP.

wraiths are not the new fast attack (there wasn't one in the version ive seen, ) but that was at least 1 or 2 before the printed dex ,(wraiths are harsh now)

Correct. There are no new fact attack choices in the Necron Codex. Wraiths, Scarabs, and destroyers are the only fast attack choices in either codex.

Ghost 21 wrote:there is a lord that makes flayed ones troops

No...there is not. BTW, this would have been the other character Ghost references as being in both the FoD and the Codex.

Ghost21 wrote:and i never saw squad leaders then again only saw squad upgrades

Correct. There in no option in the indivual units to upgrade a squad member to a squad leader. In the codex, you can split off a squad of Cryteks/Lords to lead other squads (like Wolf Guard), but this is a separate unit. He later speculated that necrons might get a WG like unit.

ghost21 wrote:but apart from that expect insane abilities on elites (flayed ones I'm looking at you).

Hit and a miss. He was correct in that Flayed ones remained in the elite slot. However, I am not aware of Flayed ones possessing insane abilities.

Ghost21 wrote:

Well now, thank you for saying Flayed One's won't be troops

Now it makes one wonder what the other troop is aside warriors...

I guess scarabs...

yeah id say that was accurate

Not accurate...scarabs stayed in the fast attack slot

Ghost21 wrote:

Yeah I wouldn't be suprised if the Immortals kit includes variant Warsycthe arms and extra bling so you can build the retinue.

thats a strong possibility

id be thinking more 8 warriors (so if you want warriors id buy em now)

Nope on all accounts. In addition, Ghost reiterates several more times that the warriors box will be recut with less models in a box. This didn't happen.

Ghost21 wrote:res orbs are overpowered normally there's a sc that has an even MORE POWERFUL ONE! (hope that clears things up)

the version i read had s&p ( for some )

No, there is no SC with a more powerful res orb that I am aware of.

wraiths wont get new models....... yet,

Correct, wraiths are second wave.

So yeah, in regards to his necron rumors, Ghost was about 50/50. Still, I would give him the benefit of the doubt as his Dread Fleet rumor came way out of left field and was correct. Anyways, Ghost presents rumors without sounding an hat...unlike a certain poster on BOKs (I am not refering to TastyTaste) who always leaves a...badtaste in my mouth when I read his rumors (even if they are largely correct).

To still be on ghost, here's a new, small morsel.

ghost21 wrote:i think kelly is on tau

This I hope he's right on.

obsidianaura wrote:
Markerlights not heavy - they aren't heavy weapons they're laser pointers, there is no point this being heavy. Rolling to hit is enough.

Its meant to be a realistic depiction of a real world SOFLAM or laser-target designator. Its not something you pull the trigger and tag something with and then walk away, you have to illuminate the target until the ordnance has acquired, preferably impacted. Thus, the heavy.

Hammer-heads in groups 1-3 + Rear armour 11 - like guard have for their battle tanks

I have mixed feelings about this. Tau should be an elite mechanized infantry army (think German Panzergrenadiers from ww2 or modern day US Marines), they would look more like a horde army if they copied the guard. Personally, I think it would be cool if GW emphasized the "combined arms" aspect of the Tau, and you could take Hammerheads as part of a Tau "infantry platoon" (perhaps with some added bonus if the Hammerhead is acting directly in support of the Firewarriors).

BS3 is fine BS4 would make them cost more and tbh I dont want that.

I disagree. FW are overpriced as it is, if you gave them BS4 and kept them the same cost they would at least be reasonable. Hell, they actually could probably still do with a slight points decrease. The argument is pointless though, BS4 FW already exist... they are called markerlights.... but they need to be WAY cheaper. Then again, if GW insists on the Tau being utterly incapable of winning cc barring extraordinary luck, maybe they can be nice and throw us a bone?

In any case, the one thing I absolutely positively refuse to see is Tau Firewarriors armed with anything other than Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines. I understand that it sucks that our Firewarriors are combat ineffective against vehicles/specialized units, but its one of the few unique aspects about the army that should remain IMO. Find another way to fix the problems (the option for drones perhaps).

cost 1 point less for basic warrior and add the option to take veterans that have increased bs

IMO, it should be a 2 point decrease.

tldr:
two species do not start at the same level for a basic trait,
two species will not learn at the same rate,
humans are more evolved, tau are not
tau use technology to get over this.

and then they use more technology to get PAST this by incorporating advanced optical systems into those funky helmets they all wear, which justifies the additional point of BS and fixes the "focusing" issue.

Tau vehicles are gonna move away from the "Wow, these guys actually fight semi-smart/realistically" to more anime mechs. Mark my words.

Harriticus wrote:Tau vehicles are gonna move away from the "Wow, these guys actually fight semi-smart/realistically" to more anime mechs. Mark my words.

You act as if we all dont secretly want a Gundam of our own to pilot.

Harriticus wrote:Tau vehicles are gonna move away from the "Wow, these guys actually fight semi-smart/realistically" to more anime mechs. Mark my words.

I sincerly hope you are completely wrong on that magic 8 ball prediction, although they may go both ways with it, make Imperial Tau in the manner we know, and make the Farsight collective be a more battlesuit based ( anime) force, Tau are one of the races like Necrons that did not make much sense fluff wise they would be fighting each other.

So likely the Farsight group will become a rebellion and provide perhaps a seperate play style, I don't particularly like Farsight, but meh! diversity is good I guess, and will allow the angsty rebelious types to play gundam tau

The recent codex (Xenos) have seemed to try and build up modeling options as well as play, and I have a feeling Tau will be no different.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Tau vehicles are gonna move away from the "Wow, these guys actually fight semi-smart/realistically" to more anime mechs. Mark my words.

I sincerly hope you are completely wrong on that magic 8 ball prediction, although they may go both ways with it, make Imperial Tau in the manner we know, and make the Farsight collective be a more battlesuit based ( anime) force, Tau are one of the races like Necrons that did not make much sense fluff wise they would be fighting each other.

So likely the Farsight group will become a rebellion and provide perhaps a seperate play style, I don't particularly like Farsight, but meh! diversity is good I guess, and will allow the angsty rebelious types to play gundam tau

The recent codex (Xenos) have seemed to try and build up modeling options as well as play, and I have a feeling Tau will be no different.

Tau have been slowly drifting to anime. Compare the XV8 to the XV9. The XV8 is done in a modular American mini mech style. The VX9 is larger with attached weapons done in a more Japaneses style.

I tend to shy away from the idea of gundam influence for a few reason.
1 it's a slander used by marine players to discredit tau players as 16 year old otakus
2 the army as a whole is very non gundamy and leans much more on allot of western designs.
3 gundams in scale and concept are of a different significance then a crisis suit
4 gundam is space first. 40k is ground first.
5antrhopomorphized robot vehicles are not a Japan only concept

Grakmar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.

Markerlights add to BS.

BS can be over 5.

It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.

Yes, but the rule for Markerlights says that they can only increase up to 5.

Other models can have over 5, but Tau can only get to 5 with Markerlights, no more.

I consider that to be updated by the core rules of 5th edition, in the same way as the target lock rule.

nomotog wrote:

Tau have been slowly drifting to anime.

You sure it hasn't been drifting towards battle-tech? Mechwarrior? Starship troopers? Those robots at the end of the matrix 3? Metal gear? Mecha in general?

Or is the only giant walking robots you know anime?