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2015/01/07 17:12:10
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
To be frank, I don't care much for these changes. If the new edition blows, I will just stick playing 8th with competitive changes. GW ruined 40k with 6th/7th, so we went back to playing 4th instead.
ImAGeek wrote:I have a question, if, worst comes to worst, Fantasy goes the way of the dodo and it's suddenly a weird bubbly skirmish and I don't want to play, are there any games similar to Fantasy as is now? Most games these days seem to be skirmish.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
1. My mates at Mantic are going to make a killing. Kings of War is already an incredibly system, and if WHFB as we know it goes away, that system will just look that much better, AND will be an inviting home for all those with now obsolete armies.
Mayhem and Legions of Battle aren't to be sniffed at either. Both with fancy-schmancy unit creation rules that'll validate any minis you have or that GW kicks to the kerb in the future. Mayhem's action point and polydice mechanics are also very interesting, IMO, and LoB's basing is, er, based around multiple minis on elements that just happen to match groups of Warhammer-based minis. KoW is popular, but in the event of GW's (re)shrinking to a skirmish game, I don't think even that will take over mass fantasy gaming to an overwhelming degree. (not with that range of minis, anyway) The idea of 9th nobbling Warhammer and 8th dwindling away to a 'dead' also-ran might terrify some people, but to me, it opens up the market to more choice, more freedom. You just gotta grab it.
Platuan4th wrote:But the Kings of War rules suck.
Grey Templar wrote:Indeed. KoW are just alternate models for Warhammer Fantasy. I'll use GW or my own rules before KoW.
There are a couple of trip-ups that prevent KoW being my first choice, though one or two of them are addressed in the new edition, AFAIK. Otherwise, it's a pretty solid set of rules, and shares principles with the majority of fantasy and historical mass battle rules. Warhammer, being grown out of all proportion from a skirmish game and obsessing to an unusual degree over individual models, individual units, and individual special rules, rather than being built for purpose, is actually a weird anomaly in that regard.
hubcap wrote:That entry might be boring and generic ("Elven Light Cavalry" instead of Dark Riders / Sisters of the Thorn). But I bet you will be able to find a hole to fit most of your pegs.
You might say that, although I don't think things would go that generic; but you could also say that all the piling on of fiddly, 'characterful' units, aided by dual-kits, clutters the game, and has led to these rumours of chopping out half the armies just so they can fit on the shelf. (On another forum somebody complained about skaven turning from an army of hordes of little guys to an army of huge things. I was going to disagree, but then I counted - skaven get eight huge things as unit choices, alongside everything else. That's... just not necessary. By comparison, my WAB saxons could take huscarls, thegns, ceorls and geburs. I didn't even take huscarls and ceorls, and felt no poorer for it.) Not to mention the foisting of extra fluff into rules and stats lowers the ability to find or use suitable proxies. It's as if other companies can produce round pegs, square pegs, decagonal pegs even, but try fitting them in GW's squamous non-euclidean holes.
I'll take the regular holes, ta. The unit creation rules of the games I mentioned can take care of the general shape of that, so to speak. Most of the actual fluff will be taken care of by the appearance of the models I use and, well, the fluff. Any residual 'blandness' after that will outweighed by the games' focus on tactical considerations rather than speshul-snowflake rules.
In the same vein as my response to Platuan and Grey Templar: if you're too wedded to the idea of a dozen types of elf cavalry, all with their own distracting little idiosyncracies, then Warhammer's return to skirmish, with a more appropriate focus on characters and special rules, might be right up your alley.
pretre wrote:
You must have a different definition of 'Premier'.
Darnok (from Warseer) - Total rumors: (49 TRUE) / (17 FALSE) / (9 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
What is that... 65% correct?
versus say Lords of Wargaming:
Lords of Wargaming - Total rumors: (21 TRUE) / (0 FALSE) / (1 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE)
~96%
Are you seriously trying to mathammer GW rumour sources? What counts as an MEQ in this scenario?
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I was thinking- if fantasy as we know it disappears to be replaced by brand new armies with all new units(that naturally invalidate all of the current models), that in effect would also put an end to a lot of the me-too type companies that like to ride on GW's coattails in terms of producing proxy models.
I dunno... in the way Mantic, Bombshell etc. provide proxy rules, it seems to me it's an opportunity for some of those me-too companies, and others, to flood in and fill whatever gap GW leaves in the generic fantasy mass-battle market. And like Mantic, Bombshell etc., there are those who already do. Could be a time for Gamezone to make more than just a couple of elf units in that plastic/resin stuff they use. Like Harry said...
Ozymandias wrote:
Harry wrote:
I can't see them throwing out everything they have done either ... but the only way to own the IP is to loose all the generic Fantasy that other companies can copy ... normal Dwarves, Elves and sure as heck you have to get rid of the historical based human armies ... or you can go build an Empire or Bretonnian army from anyone's miniatures.
...and...
Baragash wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote: Limited time releases prevent 3rd party manufacturers gaining traction.
How so...? If sets are limited release 3rd party manufacturers can make money with alternate models for OOP kits.
Finally joining Dakka² merely for this: I so hope you are right.
You should hang around, though. Less chance of some mod banning you because you giggle once too often at GW's insanity, because you exist, or because it's Tuesday.
[/bitter]
Accolade wrote:6. If WHFB players are upset about this new game, so what? GW got their money already, and it's not like they were doing enough to support WHFB as it was.
I'm sure they were supporting FB enough. Just not to the heavy-breathing, rolling-in-a-pile-of-money degree that Kirby et al might like.
Yodhrin wrote:but within a very short space of time they won't be played often enough for people to count on being able to just show up at a club/store and get a game, and that trend is only going to get worse over time.
Your clubs and stores ain't got no facebook page or whatnot to organise? My dinky wee club with half a dozen people has a Google+ page for that purpose.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/07 18:03:53
Its quite silly. Why leave something like that limited when they can keep selling it? They invested the money to produce it, why limit what you can make off of it. The only people limited edition models help are second hand sellers. It does NOTHING for gw
RoperPG wrote: Blimey, it's very salty in here...
Any more vegans want to put forth their opinions on bacon?
2015/01/07 17:20:31
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Its quite silly. Why leave something like that limited when they can keep selling it? They invested the money to produce it, why limit what you can make off of it. The only people limited edition models help are second hand sellers. It does NOTHING for gw
So printing new editions with new cards and making old cards obsolete or very hard to find does nothing for MtG? Weird, I thought that that was their whole commercial concept...
This is what GW is trying to accomplish if these rumours are true, taking the DLC from computer games that they have implemented already and mating it with the planned obsolescence of TCGs! Brilliant! (at least in the minds of GW's management it will be considered like that)
2015/01/07 17:31:00
Subject: Re:Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
I don't see how short run injection moulding pays off. Such moulds are expensive, that's why GW wrings years of use out of them. How short term could they be thinking? Weeks like some of their books, or a couple of years like mtg? Trying a rotational system on miniatures in which models are continuously being deleted from catalogues while still being game playable will make the game untenable.
GW think they sell to collectors and making everything a rapidly selling out collectors item will create a cash injection on a monthly basis. That seems their approach with books and some products, conservative, low stock that rapidly sells out so there's little storage and distribution costs and no loss on unsold stock. But expanding that to the whole game system? I can't see gamers being on board for that. As I said in another thread, warhammer isnt a ccg, players don't want to chase the miniatures to play the game and will become quickly disillusioned. If they aren't already with the way GW is mismanaging the gaming community.
I find this rumour hard to believe now. GW won't want to throw away plastic moulds after one run, unless they're some cheap material that doesn't last anyway. If they do pursue this they'll be on their knees in short time.
2015/01/07 17:37:30
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Aluminum mold are shorter run, so they could be running as many as they can from a single mold, and that's it. Not saying I believe it all, but it's possible!
2015/01/07 17:38:58
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
WayneTheGame wrote:I think if they really do that, it's going to be the final death knell for WHFB, because that sounds pretty stupid. Ironically about the only thing that sounds cool is the "WHFB Space Marines" concept
Yes... there's definitely... some irony going on here.
Platuan4th wrote:I'm also turned off by the whole damage counters rather than removing models way of approaching units.
But like I said, that's the way most others do it. And bleedin' good thing too. The tedious rigmarole of getting all those oversized dynamic models built so they rank up, plucking the whole thing apart again as part of the game mechanics, then slotting the 3D jigsaw back together for the next game, is part of what turned me off Warhammer. (Then WAB, played with Gripping Beast's plastic saxons [remember them from above?] and their every-which-way spears, really soured me on the whole idea of mass-battle casualty removal.)
unmercifulconker wrote:So old players are being respected by letting them switch to round bases thus invalidating every single model they own and allowing them to continue playing with the old editions
Oh the horror.
yet with the round bases and less unit selection makes collecting for old edition games near impossible?
With any luck, the trend of falling WHFB popularity, combined with cessation of GW's spoonfeeding, will continue and new gamers' interest in older editions will be almost nonexistent.
Charles Rampant wrote:It is better than the last set of rumours. But ho boy, I'm not looking forward to rebasing dozens of infantry and MC models...
Then... don't.
unmercifulconker wrote:Also, that rumour saying GW are creating this new system in order to make a truly unique fantasy setting and reduce the likelihood of people buying proxies. Creating this new system will just encourage the purchasing of proxies since GW will not be supporting the existing lines as much for people who want to play the old way.
I know. Great, innit?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 18:04:41
Tooling plastic molds isn't the boogeyman it used to be 10 years ago. Heck, even at the start of 5th GW made a mold just to throw in a mini sprue with WD. That one company in the UK made like 5 different molds on a 10k Kickstarter. It's not the big deal the internet makes it out to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 17:41:19
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2015/01/07 17:42:17
Subject: Re:Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
There's this huge (Old) world full of history and lore, countless tribes, races, civilizations with their own unique flavour, stories, prophecies etc.
Then you have bubbles.
Each full of the former.
I think it can allow for some interesting story or additional short stories. where the skaven bubble suddenly take complete control over there own bubble. come down then because gentlemen with top hats and mustaches.
dont you want rats with top hats and mustaches?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 17:42:39
Desubot wrote: I think it can allow for some interesting story or additional short stories. where the skaven bubble suddenly take complete control over there own bubble. come down then because gentlemen with top hats and mustaches.
dont you want rats with top hats and mustaches?
It does seem really cool imagining massed armies just standing and bracing, waiting for a sudden storm of another army, but all I can imagine is those small worlds like on the British Gas adverts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 17:45:48
Fury from faith
Faith in fury
Numquam solus ambulabis
2015/01/07 17:47:36
Subject: Re:Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
I think that's one of the most interesting things about these rumours. How do they work? In what way are they... 'adrift'? Are the bubbles like quantum realities, containing entire worlds if not universes? Are they like DnD planes or Marvel-Thor's network of worlds? Do they float in space or in a sea of Chaos (the warp, empyrean, etc.)? Is the latter possible if Chaos controls some of these bubbles? (You'd imagine the powers would just 'pop' them into the wider Chaos once conquered) Is there communication and travel between them beyond accidental collision?
via a very solid source on Faeit 212
Let me give you some confirmation:
The setting is being completely overhauled - true.
The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true.
Faction reduction to 6 - true
As for how it interacts with the current rules.
9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.
So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).
You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.
You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."
All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.
This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.
On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.
Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.
So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.
----
This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).
It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.
Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.
The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).
Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
2015/01/07 17:54:29
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
It is as reliable as anything that comes from Natfka.
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2015/01/07 17:55:42
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).
These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.
These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).
As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.
Sooooo... make changes to the meta, or what JJ and crew think is the meta, with limited edition releases. If you don't get the limited edition release, then no meta fix for you.
Also even less rules in core books.
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
2015/01/07 17:55:59
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Is this from a reliable source / should I add it to the OP? Seems to just rephrase what we've heard already a bit, and make some safe leaps of logic from that.
It is as reliable as anything that comes from Natfka.
Still, it jives with the original rumor, although adding talk of bases. We've got a whole different thread on bases now, of course - round, hex, octagon, let those rumors fly
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 17:57:11
2015/01/07 17:59:16
Subject: Re:Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
It destroys an entire layer of military and political thinking. No longer can you work towards strategic goals by forming alliances or declaring wars, because your ability to even act at the strategic level is now at the mercy of The Faraway Tree. If somebody starts a war it should be to do something, not just because somebody showed up and you didn't have anything better to do.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2015/01/07 18:02:01
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
One of the things I always liked the idea of was that the Warhammer World was a world surrounded by Chaos (within The Warp in 40k terms) and that it was being prevented from being consumed by some sort of Old One shielding technology. The Realms of Chaos at the north and south poles are where the Old Ones Warp gates had collapsed and Chaos was seeping in to the world.
Now that the End Times have Chaos spilling out like never before, the shielding technology is failing further and further, leading us to this rumored condition of the Warhammer World several hundred years down the timeline where Chaos is the norm, and reality exists only in these "pockets".
What if these pockets were generated by "magic items" that were really Old One tech designed to protect an area from Warpspace? Much like the tech that used to protect the entire planet, but on a smaller scale. Like lanterns of normality in a sea of insanity.
Survivors are just those lucky enough to be near the tech when the world was consumed. Some know about it, some may even be able to move them around, some may not even know why they were spared. Could be some interesting storytelling there.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2015/01/07 18:06:27
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
Alex C wrote: Regarding the "pocket realities" rumor...
One of the things I always liked the idea of was that the Warhammer World was a world surrounded by Chaos (within The Warp in 40k terms) and that it was being prevented from being consumed by some sort of Old One shielding technology. The Realms of Chaos at the north and south poles are where the Old Ones Warp gates had collapsed and Chaos was seeping in to the world.
Now that the End Times have Chaos spilling out like never before, the shielding technology is failing further and further, leading us to this rumored condition of the Warhammer World several hundred years down the timeline where Chaos is the norm, and reality exists only in these "pockets".
What if these pockets were generated by "magic items" that were really Old One tech designed to protect an area from Warpspace? Much like the tech that used to protect the entire planet, but on a smaller scale. Like lanterns of normality in a sea of insanity.
Survivors are just those lucky enough to be near the tech when the world was consumed. Some know about it, some may even be able to move them around, some may not even know why they were spared. Could be some interesting storytelling there.
This sounds really cool actually; the world still exists but is almost entirely consumed by chaos. The only problem is these skirmish games. The forces of Chaos should be large and powerful enough to just pile drive into every small pocket in the world left.
Fury from faith
Faith in fury
Numquam solus ambulabis
2015/01/07 18:09:37
Subject: Rumors of the possible future of WHFB in summer 2015
RiTides wrote:Still, it jives with the original rumor, although adding talk of bases. We've got a whole different thread on bases now, of course - round, hex, octagon, let those rumors fly
I said it - non-euclidean. Especially in the Chaos bubbles.
It destroys an entire layer of military and political thinking. No longer can you work towards strategic goals by forming alliances or declaring wars, because your ability to even act at the strategic level is now at the mercy of The Faraway Tree. If somebody starts a war it should be to do something, not just because somebody showed up and you didn't have anything better to do.
I hear you and agree with you, but I gotta say, I don't think a lot of Warhammer players care about that so much as mashing two armies together and whacking at eachother with special rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
unmercifulconker wrote: The forces of Chaos should be large and powerful enough to just pile drive into every small pocket in the world left.
Which is what confuses me as to what the 'sea' these dimensional bubbles float in actually is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 18:11:25
It just doesn't make sense that they'd drop that much and do such a risky move, potentially alienating all the current Warhammer fans.
Seems more likely that we'll have a 9th edition with the End Times modifications to the core rules mixed in, and they'll leave things floating in the air to focus on the (more-profitable) 40k line. Think about it: whyspend effort trying to develop a bunch of books that would be obsolete in months, why cut their army count in half, why frustrate more of their playerbase,why get rid of their current sculpts, andwhy waste money reinventing the wheel?
I'm not saying that these rumors aren't true, but I'm just saying that it's a good idea to take them with a grain of salt.
And maybe all the people who are panicking and up in arms about the changes will look back after summer and say...
