Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 theCrowe wrote:
Do you ever wonder what the major Middle Eastern Powers are doing to sort out their own back yard?

Pitting their enemies against each other in attempt to wipe them out?

Sorry to post this only in German, but I haven't found any English report of this piece. It's from the Spiegel so it should be safe.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/tuerkei-regierung-verhaengt-ausreiseverbot-fuer-akademiker-a-1103850.html

Basically the Turkish post-pogrom Education ministry has recalled all Turkish researchers and professors abroad and forbid them from leaving the country unless their work is "absolutely necessary".

They're also asking chancellors to report on any possible pro-coup activity for teaching and administration staff. The Council expects a report from each chancellor no later than Aug 5th.

Welcome to the Islamic Republic of Erdoganistan.

This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

Well there goes that vacation to Turkey when I retire. I had wanted to see the ruins of Troy and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well.
More time to eat Italian food.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Is he going "Full Islamic State"? Getting rid of professors, judges, and other speedbumps that would oppose him and/or speak out against him?

 kronk wrote:
Is he going "Full Islamic State"? Getting rid of professors, judges, and other speedbumps that would oppose him and/or speak out against him?

RIP seculer Turkey

 djones520 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Well there goes that vacation to Turkey when I retire. I had wanted to see the ruins of Troy and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well.
More time to eat Italian food.

Or come to Scotland. Get some proper booze as opposed to that Bourbon rubbish you've been drinking for years

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.

Not hiding it now....

El Presidente for life has risen.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.

If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.

Not hiding it now....

El Presidente for life has risen.

On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...

On the plus side, he if keeps this up, I wouldn't be surprised to see a real coup take place.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
This is genuinely beginning to stink of 'orchestrated coup'.

I'm not convinced by that argument, but I have no doubt that Erdogan is milking the crisis for all its worth. It's more than likely he's had these hit lists drawn up for months, and was just waiting for the right moment to spring them...

He's had the lists drawn up for a while, if the papers today are accurate. He's just been waiting for an excuse.

I don't think the chief conspirators were any less, well...conspiratorial, but I have a strong suspicion that Erdogan's known about them for a while, and played them like a fiddle (probably by getting military personnel loyal to him to play along and make them think they had a better chance than they did). Everything was too badly placed for the coup attempt (in terms of assets and timing), and too well placed for him (from military personnel, to his location, to the speed and form of his response) for this to have been unforeseen and randomised.

It might walk like a duck, quack like a duck, and have a big label saying 'I am a duck', but if it looks nothing like a duck, you get suspicious.

The evidence I have for it not being a coup, is very unscientific and largely anecdotal, but it goes like this:

There are people I know who buy into conspiracy theories, the usual stuff about the CIA ruling the world etc etc

Anyway, they're split right down the middle on this. If they're split, and this is the first time this has happened in years, then it wasn't planned by Erdogan

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.

If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.

Not hiding it now....

El Presidente for life has risen.

On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...

Maybe when the military guide it back to a seculer post otterman empire path ... just maybe they would become EU.

 djones520 wrote:
On the plus side, he if keeps this up, I wouldn't be surprised to see a real coup take place.

I think the coup opportunity is gone, and would give us a civil war instead, which is the last thing we need right now. Even somebody like me living in the middle of nowhere in Scotland would notice and be affected by a civil war in Turkey...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.

If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36843180

Ok, it's time the West starts getting involved. Threaten expulsion from NATO, or something of the sort, if this crap doesn't stop. He's gone full tin pot dictator in the last week.

Unfortunately, realpolitik would suggest that keeping Turkey in NATO is in our interest right now.

Not hiding it now....

El Presidente for life has risen.

On the plus side, I suppose Turkey's EU application is on indefinite hold for say, a 1000 years or something...

Democracy is not the natural state of human government.

I wouldn't be surprised if the [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] shrimp were to crown himself Sultan tomorrow.

Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.

If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?

Yeah, Turkey was relatively secular and on its way to joining the EU and becoming even more Westernized but then Ermahgerd Erdogan gets in power and steers the country back towards theocracy. The kind of cultural change required in the ME is going to be messy, difficult and violent. It's not like Europe's reformation and enlightenment was quick and painless. When the going gets tough people are going to look for leadership and people that tell them what they want to hear/pander to their problems. In theory the Arab Spring was an opportunity for Western secularists to take power in North Africa and get countries moving in a better direction. In actuality, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are now more prone to the influence of religious zealots both politically and culturally due to the power vacuums created. It would be great for Western moderates to be in charge but they're a minority and relatively peaceful so they didn't stand a chance against the radical Islamist minority that had the physical power to seize political power. Now it will be much harder for us to support secular reforms there short of direct military intervention.


The religious zealots are very violent as we see in all the militant groups like ISIS, but more importantly indifferent to if people they don't like get murdered/tortured/etc. After all, it's not THEM. The secularists/Westernized people there are picking their habits up from the west, and they unfortunately don't apply to the society they live in, as they generally aren't down with murder and whatnot, but the people that pose the biggest obstacle to those secularists don't give a feth if they need to spill some blood to be in charge. It's a losing battle when you still have large contingents of people in your country ready to murder anyone who disagrees with them. You can't win a fight against somebody who is ready and willing to take away your livlihood, imprison you and/or execute you with media reports, peaceful protests and social media activity and there aren't a lot of zealous armed militias ready to fight for the cause of secularism.

 jhe90 wrote:
Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

Godwinception?

Looks like Turkey is going the way of Nazi Germany, lets hope the end result isn't the same.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

Godwinception?

Looks like Turkey is going the way of Nazi Germany, lets hope the end result isn't the same.

That il thaw out Turkey, Israel relations for sure...

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

Godwinception?

Looks like Turkey is going the way of Nazi Germany, lets hope the end result isn't the same.

Well they did already try to pick a fight with Mother Russia. Time to break out the T34s and PPshs! Death to the hitlerites!

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

Godwinception?

Looks like Turkey is going the way of Nazi Germany, lets hope the end result isn't the same.

Too late.

They've been cleansing the region of Kurds for some time. Or, as they put it, Mountain Turks.

See also: Armenian Genocide

 Frazzled wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not to Godwin but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/12077703/Turkeys-president-says-all-he-wants-is-same-powers-as-Hitler.html

yep... you saw right... he Godwinned himself...

Godwinception?

Looks like Turkey is going the way of Nazi Germany, lets hope the end result isn't the same.

Well they did already try to pick a fight with Mother Russia. Time to break out the T34s and PPshs! Death to the hitlerites!

OK... Putins going to be forming the bear cavalry...

I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This is looking very bad indeed.

Regardless of how and why the coup came about, Erdogan obviously is using it as an excuse to consolidate semi-dictatorial control of the country.

It's a question that goes beyond this thread, but we in the West need to ask why countries like Turkey are rejecting democracy and liberal values.

If we can't get modern Turkey, with its modern secular foundation, and its proximity to Europe, then who can we get?

Yeah, Turkey was relatively secular and on its way to joining the EU and becoming even more Westernized but then Ermahgerd Erdogan gets in power and steers the country back towards theocracy. The kind of cultural change required in the ME is going to be messy, difficult and violent. It's not like Europe's reformation and enlightenment was quick and painless. When the going gets tough people are going to look for leadership and people that tell them what they want to hear/pander to their problems. In theory the Arab Spring was an opportunity for Western secularists to take power in North Africa and get countries moving in a better direction. In actuality, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are now more prone to the influence of religious zealots both politically and culturally due to the power vacuums created. It would be great for Western moderates to be in charge but they're a minority and relatively peaceful so they didn't stand a chance against the radical Islamist minority that had the physical power to seize political power. Now it will be much harder for us to support secular reforms there short of direct military intervention.


The religious zealots are very violent as we see in all the militant groups like ISIS, but more importantly indifferent to if people they don't like get murdered/tortured/etc. After all, it's not THEM. The secularists/Westernized people there are picking their habits up from the west, and they unfortunately don't apply to the society they live in, as they generally aren't down with murder and whatnot, but the people that pose the biggest obstacle to those secularists don't give a feth if they need to spill some blood to be in charge. It's a losing battle when you still have large contingents of people in your country ready to murder anyone who disagrees with them. You can't win a fight against somebody who is ready and willing to take away your livlihood, imprison you and/or execute you with media reports, peaceful protests and social media activity and there aren't a lot of zealous armed militias ready to fight for the cause of secularism.

Again, I'm going beyond this thread, but both our nations (USA and UK) are suffering a crisis of confidence when it comes to defending our values.

In the USA, the constitution and the bill of rights seem to be going out the window, and here in my country, voter apathy and the aloofness of the political elites, grows by the year.

If we don't give a damn about our democracy, we can't expect nations like Turkey to be interested in democracy.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

I'm sure you did. I was just taking the opportunity to show that even pre-radicalized Turkey wasn't a nice place. Post-Radicalized Turkey could be another Iran. Or worse, East LA.

Meanwhile the Russians are flip flopping between two standpoints.

Either the coup was a conspiracy by the West to lead Turkey to war with Russia, which would last decades.

Or

The details of the coup were leaked to Turkey by the Russians in advance, to distance Turkey from the West and make them their ally in the region.

 kronk wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

I'm sure you did. I was just taking the opportunity to show that even pre-radicalized Turkey wasn't a nice place. Post-Radicalized Turkey could be another Iran. Or worse, East LA.

That was mostly due to the end of the Ottoman Empire, for hundreds of years they were a progressive nation full of religious freedom. They sort of spiralled out of control towards the end however as they lost control over the hundreds of minority groups that made up the different parts of it.

 jhe90 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I do know of the problems facing the Kurds, it's quite sad for them to be stuck between Turkey and ISIS on the other side. If Turkey was a nicer place for them, maybe that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Kurds... there the only ones in region who deserve our help.

And also the least likely to get it. :(