Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Sure, incels exist, much like neo-nazis exist, but they are nobodies in the grand scheme of things and are simply being used to scare people

Maybe you missed the part where both those groups have committed murders that were widely covered in the news?

And that those murders were fully in line with the respective ideologies both groups espouse?

And recently, a woman murdered her boyfriend at a major Bay Area tech company.

Counterpoint shows that clearly, women are the root of all evil.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I think the funniest part is that a bunch of incels are actually pointing to incel groups on the internet and trying to pretend they aren't the same kind of pathetic human being.

Who specifically are you referring to?

 ScarletRose wrote:
As has been pointed out, just because other bad events happen doesn't mean "the media" is totally in the wrong to cover murders carried out by people espousing systematic murder as part of their platform.

So, what about the Skeptic Feminist? You know, that male feminist that shot his partner?

And the S.C.U.M. manifesto- a work of feminism- actually espouses murder and violence, where is your outrage?

Is it in your laundry, too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I think the funniest part is that a bunch of incels are actually pointing to incel groups on the internet and trying to pretend they aren't the same kind of pathetic human being.

Who specifically are you referring to?

Whomever the shoe fits. If it fits, lace it up and wear it.

So, doing that thing where you win imaginary arguments in the shower, but typing them out onto a forum. Got it.

 Ouze wrote:
So, doing that thing where you win imaginary arguments in the shower, but typing them out onto a forum. Got it.

It was a generalized statement. I know, you were hoping I'd name you or someone else off so you could smash your little yellow triangle and have some moderator action taken. Maybe if you don't like the content of a discussion, you should just stay out of it instead of exposing yourself to arguments you can't handle.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Maybe if you don't like the content of a discussion, you should just stay out of it instead of exposing yourself to arguments you can't handle.

In a thread of people complaining about a woman speaking at a panel they are free not to attend, irony, thy name is Adeptus Doritos.

 Ouze wrote:
In a thread of people complaining about a woman speaking at a panel they are free not to attend, irony, thy name is Adeptus Doritos.

That's really stretching it, Ouze. And I'm very fast and loose with ironic.

Unlike some aircraft, I don't wade into topics I dislike to start playing with the 'report' function. I can, at least, make my points and handle counter-points without needing someone silenced.

(Really, Dakka? Someone types an 'r' on its lonesome and you turn it into 'are'? I don't know how I feel about that.)

 thekingofkings wrote:
I think personally that there are a lot more women who have done a lot more and more tangible things to the benefit of the rpg and tabletop community and they all would have been vastly better choices to invite than someone who is fairly or unfairly considered extremely toxic (and to be honest, what has she contributed to the RPG or TT community that makes her a "industry" guest at all, let alone one of honor)

Right here is the mainstay of why I don't like the idea of her being there. It's like inviting Gordon Ramsey to be the honored speaker at a Martial Arts convention. Almost ANYONE would have been a better choice. I'd take a random FLGS owner that hosts RPG's on Sundays. I'd take a relatively vocal web-celebrity who plays D&D. Heck, I'd even take Vin Diesel, as apparently he's really into gaming.


And that's not even accounting for the hostility, history of illegal actions, attention seeking, or disruptive behavior.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Right here is the mainstay of why I don't like the idea of her being there. It's like inviting Gordon Ramsey to be the honored speaker at a Martial Arts convention. Almost ANYONE would have been a better choice. I'd take a random FLGS owner that hosts RPG's on Sundays. I'd take a relatively vocal web-celebrity who plays D&D. Heck, I'd even take Vin Diesel, as apparently he's really into gaming.

Yeah, this is a pretty valid complaint and one I totally agree with. I feel like there are a host of options a lot better suited to the actual tabletop community.

 Ouze wrote:
Yeah, this is a pretty valid complaint and one I totally agree with. I feel like there are a host of options a lot better suited to the actual tabletop community.

And if they're looking for women who've contributed to tabletop gaming, there's no shortage of those. Elisa Teague, I believe, would be a better choice. She's actually created a product and done things for the industry.

 Ouze wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I think the funniest part is that a bunch of incels are actually pointing to incel groups on the internet and trying to pretend they aren't the same kind of pathetic human being.

Who specifically are you referring to?

Do you mean people on this thread? Because I think you are using the term "incel", as much as it can have any definition, incorrectly. Incel is a self identified status, unless someone is calling themselves that, you cannot put it on someone. Incel means someone who feels not having sex is somehow unjust or especially unfair, and plenty of people who do not have sex do not see it that way.

I mean, I am leaving aside the fact that you do not know anything about the sexual histories of people posting in this thread.

 Da Boss wrote:
Do you mean people on this thread? Because I think you are using the term "incel", as much as it can have any definition, incorrectly. Incel is a self identified status, unless someone is calling themselves that, you cannot put it on someone. Incel means someone who feels not having sex is somehow unjust or especially unfair, and plenty of people who do not have sex do not see it that way.

"Incel" was being thrown around for a while, long before any groups were formed. It was an insult, actually before "Don't care virgin" was a thing. I'm not sure that it's lost its sting as an insult, and I don't think a bunch of incels get to treat it like the N-word and make it 'their word'. As a matter of fact, it's been an insult for over a decade now.

 Da Boss wrote:
I mean, I am leaving aside the fact that you do not know anything about the sexual histories of people posting in this thread.

I wasn't directing it at anyone in this thread. Trust me, when I feel like getting my wrists slapped I tend to just go straight out with the insults. And it's about as subtle as a boner joke.

My understanding is that the term originated from a woman on a forum somewhere.

 Da Boss wrote:
My understanding is that the term originated from a woman on a forum somewhere.

Where ever it came from, there's instances of it being used in 2007- EDIT- this woman was complaining about being an incel in the early 90's, and did have issues with it being an insult. But because a couple of unhinged virgins killed some people, and it plays right into the 'they hate womens' narrative- it's being used as a convenient boogeyman.

For perspective- two incels have been murderers, and apparently the board (which was banned because it was a troll pit)- hosted 40,000 members. Anyone who's shocked that subreddits full of anons are usually unhinged troll-pits where people do dumb stuff for shock value... well, they must be new to the internet.

If incels were a threat, we'd know about it. Two out of 40,000? Not scary at all. Sounds to me like people who need to find monsters in their cereal are clinging to this a bit too hard.

Meanwhile, a famous psychologist says that being an incel and remaining isolated and insular is terrible for young men, and the mainstream media is after him and calling him 'alt-right'. Further proving my point that if you upset certain people, it doesn't matter what you are- you get lumped into the villain basket and 'othered'- so some elements of society are best ridiculed or ignored.

 Ouze wrote:
... a thread of people complaining about a woman speaking at a panel they are free not to attend, irony, thy name is Adeptus Doritos.

Is disingenuousness yours? 'Cause when you reduce Sarkeesian to just "a woman speaking at a panel" it's very easy to make anyone against that idea look unreasonable.

Kinda like how she does.

She's not just 'a woman'. She's not just 'speaking at a panel'. She is far more than that. I know that, and you know that.

Shrug. I still am not sure why people make her out to be like Sauron, with these incredible god-like powers. She'll give her speech, and Gencon will avoid being ruined forever, presumably.

 Ouze wrote:
Shrug. I still am not sure why people make her out to be like Sauron, with these incredible god-like powers. She'll give her speech, and Gencon will avoid being ruined forever, presumably.

I hate to say it, but I agree with you on that. If anything she gets more publicity on her ridiculous comments and pushes her false positive agenda. Looking at this thread though.... oh man... oh man...

If you have any gaming in your areas, you know that this insane ranting that leaks from her holes isn't true in any sense of the word. I put it up to the fake agendas that people push to fuel their egos... And yes, it is an agenda, but it is being shilled in the worst of places... A convention center full of gaming industry sales and trade, and gamers from across the country... She's going to get up on stage, call everyone a whatever and there you go- instant fame from the conversation value.

If your going to Gen Con, make sure you drive your salt truck in and make sure it is fully stocked.

Before any mods have to come in we should probably stop insulting eachother and get back on topic.

 Ouze wrote:

In a thread of people complaining about a woman speaking at a panel they are free not to attend, irony, thy name is Adeptus Doritos.

In this thread people complain about a particular individual with existing track record of behaviour and established agenda.

The fact she is a woman is irrelevant, I appreciate we all understand that people are individuals, with individual personalities, merits, flaws and responsibilities and not groups of things.

Right?

Seriously, nobody complained gencon decided to bring a "woman as a guest of honour", people complained that gencon decided to bring as a guest of honour a toxic individual with proven track record and no positive affect on the gaming industry in general or connection with the tabletop industry.

 Ouze wrote:
Shrug. I still am not sure why people make her out to be like Sauron, with these incredible god-like powers.

Now you're taking the opposite tact.

First she was "She's just a woman giving a speech" and now it's "It's not like she has superpowers".

If you cannot argue this without using reduction or hyperbole, then why even bother?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Shrug. I still am not sure why people make her out to be like Sauron, with these incredible god-like powers.

Now you're taking the opposite tact.

First she was "She's just a woman giving a speech" and now it's "It's not like she has superpowers".

If you cannot argue this without using reduction or hyperbole, then why even bother?

... those are exactly the same thing! There is literally no confusion or difference between those ideas. Where is the lack of consistency?


She's just a person who is going to give a speech and go home. Most of the people attending Gencon probably don't even know who she is. The people who travel to Gencon expressly to see her is, I imagine, less than you need to field a basketball team.

And yet if you go back to the first page, there is this gnashing of teeth about how she destroys communities. She's not going to snap her fingers and Jordan Weisman disappears.

 Ouze wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Shrug. I still am not sure why people make her out to be like Sauron, with these incredible god-like powers.

Now you're taking the opposite tact.

First she was "She's just a woman giving a speech" and now it's "It's not like she has superpowers".

If you cannot argue this without using reduction or hyperbole, then why even bother?

... those are exactly the same thing! There is literally no confusion or difference between those ideas. Where is the lack of consistency?


She's just a person who is going to give a speech and go home. Most of the people attending Gencon probably don't even know who she is. The people who travel to Gencon expressly to see her is, I imagine, less than you need to field a basketball team.

And yet if you go back to the first page, there is this gnashing of teeth about how she destroys communities. She's not going to snap her fingers and Jordan Weisman disappears.

It's funny that you've managed to read the whole thread without actually reading it.

Yes, part of the reason she's still a thing is the overblown reaction to her work and statements, but the reaction is not only a negative one from people who dislike what she has to say or how she's said it. The value and validity of her material is also overblown by people who support her broad ideological stance despite its manifold flaws, and the difference is many of them have a platform in the media to amplify both their views and hers, and which they've used to traduce anyone who criticises those views by lumping together genuine, measured, valid criticism with trolls and genuine misogynist nutjobs.

She may not be Sauron, but pretending she'll be "just another speaker" if nobody with past experience of her antics and the backlash to them pays any attention is nonsense, because she does have people who will amplify what she says even if people who disagree ignore it completely, which will be enough to spark the minority of usual suspects into their usual fury and once again provide the excuse needed to label a whole community as toxic women-haters.

I had to check who she was as I'd never heard of her.
Don't really see the point of her talking at Gencon but inviting her has definitely achieved a lot of talk about it and as the old saying goes "there's no such thing as bad press". This will drum up a lot of business for Gencon

AS snapping her fingers and making Jordan Weissman dissappear , heh.

No, but she'll probably claim that inch-tall representations of giant fighting robots are sexist because there aren't any representative female giant fighting robots. Then if there were she would complain about how they were portrayed.

Remember when she said, "Everything is sexist, everything is racist; and you have to point it all out." Talk about seeing goblins in your cereal. She definitely has an agenda, and it is a toxic one.

This woman is about as close to an industry expert as I am a chinese fighter pilot.

Edit never mind

I wonder what the Gencon admins hoped to achieve with this, as far as I know she has no connections at all with the tabletop industry? Did they just wanna stir some controversy or was it ideologically driven?


Also, I'm amazed that this thread is still alive

xraytango wrote:
AS snapping her fingers and making Jordan Weissman dissappear , heh.

No, but she'll probably claim that inch-tall representations of giant fighting robots are sexist because there aren't any representative female giant fighting robots. Then if there were she would complain about how they were portrayed.

Remember when she said, "Everything is sexist, everything is racist; and you have to point it all out." Talk about seeing goblins in your cereal. She definitely has an agenda, and it is a toxic one.

This video is relevant:

https://youtu.be/WxYyxC7gftg

To be honest since Gamergate ended all the times I have realised Anita still is a thing is because posts and news against her.

For example, without this post I wouldn't even know she would go to Gencon.


And, in a unrelated note. I'm the only one that hated the term "gamer" much earlier than this gamergate thing? I always hated how its used as some kind of sweet pill that some people uses to try to identify and make feel that they are part of a larger group, because normally this was the "home" of the nerds and the socially excluded in their youth.
But as years past I have seen the term become an excuse to attack each other, insult, etc... and I'm not even talking about "men hate women" but "Omg you aren't a true gamer because you don't play this specific games", etc...

I don't know. I have play games since I have memory, and they have been the most important part of my life, but I don't consider myself a "gamer". I don't construct my personality and personal identity around things like that.

(I'll add that I have the same opinion about anybody that calls himself, I don't know. A Hipster, a heavy metal... whatever name they use to call themselves, etc...)

You know what's funny? 25-30 years ago, geeks were under attack by ideologues claiming that our games and hobbies were 'Satanic' or would would make us into school shooters. Back then, we got together and fought back.

Anita's 'just a woman speaking at an event'... just like Johanna Michaelsen. She spoke at an event, too. What happened next was parents tearing through their kids' rooms and confiscating and burning D&D books, music cassettes, VHS movies, etc. Kids were getting dragged in front of the pulpit to 'confess' their Satanic activities and 'get saved'. Friendships were ruined, because we were forbidden to talk to people who did 'Satanic' activities. FFS, this woman actually perpetuated a story about Star Wars being Satanic.

(Here's what Johanna Michaelsen was known for: https://www.amazon.com/Like-Lambs-Slaughter-Johanna-Michaelsen/dp/0890816174 )

Yeah, it might have not been as international or 'huge' as Anita Sarkeesian, but Johanna piggybacked off of another huge moral panic, just like Anita. And there were people who were throwing down their hobbies, screaming about how this Quiet Riot tape had him communing with Beelzebub and how now he has repented, and come to the Lord Jesus Christ! Amen, brothers and sisters, pass the offering plate around! You need to give from the heart!

Now some other woman comes along and trades 'Jesus' for 'Feminism' and 'Satan' for 'Misogyny' and we swapped the offering plate for a Kickstarter/Patreon. And we get a portion of gamers that suddenly forgets about that and they're ready to geld themselves and bend the knee.

Think that's extreme? Go digging through Anita's commentary about gaming that isn't about sexism. She loathes violence, gore, etc... and I must remind you we're on a 40k board. Do you really want this outrage mob of moral authoritarians coming for you, your group, or your hobby?

Because in the end you're still not getting a peepee touch. You're still not going to be a better person. You're just another sucker that got caught up in a moral panic, and just like those guys hurling their Metallica tapes into a fire- you're not really doing anything but signaling your virtues.

Another issue is- Anita has, on record (and video) lashed out at audience members. I don't care if you like Sargon of Akkad or his follwers, she sat on a panel and berated and demeaned an audience member. She then entered into a conflict with an impartial, yet supportive panel member offstage. She is, by all standards- unfit to sit on this panel and she should be de-platformed.

Anita has, on record- stolen artwork and video footage for her video series. No credit was ever given to the artists or players that the media was stolen from.

Anita has, on record, worked with an actual con-artist who is also a sleazy pick-up artist that refers to women repeatedly as 'sluts'.

There are plenty of better candidates. A rabble-rouser and huckster with a track record of dishonest and questionable business practices should not be something the gaming community places at the forefront of their culture, even for this event.

I am considering, in all honesty, starting a petition.

The best example for Anita I've ever heard was 'asbestos salesman'. Back in the old days, before we were certain about how dangerous asbestos was-there were people working for asbestos companies spreading panics about children burning alive in schools. This was not directed at the schools, but rather an ignorant and uninformed audience- pearl clutching mothers. It would generate a small panic, and these mothers would demand the schools use asbestos. Anita is very much the same way- fabricating a panic to sell her product. And her product is herself. Perhaps, at some point, her end state may be to sell her services as a 'feminist advisor' and slap her seal of approval on games (that's my current theory, at least- and I believe she's tried to do so).