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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Wonder if we'll finally get rules for the Glaive? The main gun could have rules similar to Mortarian's lantern.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





I am more surprised that we haven't heard anything in regards to rumors yet.

Which probably means they either aren't working on it yet or keep a lid on it.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am more surprised that we haven't heard anything in regards to rumors yet.

Which probably means they either aren't working on it yet or keep a lid on it.

They're pretty tight lipped right now. No leaks on Saga of the Beast yet either. I'm guessing they're saving everything for Adepticon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 08:07:28


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am more surprised that we haven't heard anything in regards to rumors yet.

Which probably means they either aren't working on it yet or keep a lid on it.


Being Forge World lowers the chance of leaks a bit. They do not produce nearly the same numbers, and there is no where near the same distribution. So by the simple fact that less people see it before it comes out, there is less chance that a leaker with find it. Also, with less people seeing it a leaker would be less likely to leak, as there is a higher chance of being found out.

Not saying it can't happen, just that the chances are lower.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Trickstick wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I am more surprised that we haven't heard anything in regards to rumors yet.

Which probably means they either aren't working on it yet or keep a lid on it.


Being Forge World lowers the chance of leaks a bit. They do not produce nearly the same numbers, and there is no where near the same distribution. So by the simple fact that less people see it before it comes out, there is less chance that a leaker with find it. Also, with less people seeing it a leaker would be less likely to leak, as there is a higher chance of being found out.

Not saying it can't happen, just that the chances are lower.


The rules are done by GW mainteam Which is why i am surpried in the first place.

Then again the next big even is around the corner, so maybee GW is using that for more stuff.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Not Online!!! wrote:
The rules are done by GW mainteam Which is why i am surpried in the first place.


Is anyone even sure what that means? How large is the team, and who is on it? Plus, is the whole team working on this or did they give it to the new guy to work on part time? Did they just fold the FW team into the main team?

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Trickstick wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The rules are done by GW mainteam Which is why i am surpried in the first place.


Is anyone even sure what that means? How large is the team, and who is on it? Plus, is the whole team working on this or did they give it to the new guy to work on part time? Did they just fold the FW team into the main team?


Considering GW don't even name the author of the books anymore to protect form criticism, we have no idea but we can clearly see that not all books are done by a team but rather multiple people which don't even propperly seem to communicate with each other ( CSM 2.0 SM 2.0 f.e. or the massive difference between supplements, or PA, for that matter......)

I also don't expect an improvement in the internal balance. If anything i am fully prepared to be the butt of the joke of a R&H update again, most likely beeing completly underperfoming again or potentially just beeing IH but with chaff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 08:49:33


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The rules are done by GW mainteam Which is why i am surpried in the first place.


Is anyone even sure what that means? How large is the team, and who is on it? Plus, is the whole team working on this or did they give it to the new guy to work on part time? Did they just fold the FW team into the main team?


Considering GW don't even name the author of the books anymore to protect form criticism, we have no idea but we can clearly see that not all books are done by a team but rather multiple people which don't even propperly seem to communicate with each other ( CSM 2.0 SM 2.0 f.e. or the massive difference between supplements, or PA, for that matter......)

I also don't expect an improvement in the internal balance. If anything i am fully prepared to be the butt of the joke of a R&H update again, most likely beeing completly underperfoming again or potentially just beeing IH but with chaff.


I'd be thrilled if they just fixed all the points for most stuff. R&h needs more than that though.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they just fixed all the points for most stuff. R&h needs more than that though.


Could R&H work as a few pages of rules modifying the Guard list? Like a general "replace AM keyword with renegade", lists of disallowed units like creed, new set of doctrines/traits/relics/stratagems/powers and then maybe a few datasheets for things like enforcers? I know that an entire new list would be better but what would be the "minimal viable product"? Or a better question is probably what is the least that you could find acceptable?

Plus, setting R&H up as alternate-guard would increase sales to Chaos players. Maybe FW could release a simple conversion kit for Cadians, with spikes!

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they just fixed all the points for most stuff. R&h needs more than that though.


Could R&H work as a few pages of rules modifying the Guard list? Like a general "replace AM keyword with renegade", lists of disallowed units like creed, new set of doctrines/traits/relics/stratagems/powers and then maybe a few datasheets for things like enforcers? I know that an entire new list would be better but what would be the "minimal viable product"? Or a better question is probably what is the least that you could find acceptable?

Plus, setting R&H up as alternate-guard would increase sales to Chaos players. Maybe FW could release a simple conversion kit for Cadians, with spikes!

Well that could work as far as "least acceptable " goes, as long as r&h gets datasheets for their unique units. Most stuff is shared with guard already.

But feth "cadians with spikes". We should at least get unique troops sculpts. A multi part kit of the bsf traitor guard would be great. I love those models.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they just fixed all the points for most stuff. R&h needs more than that though.


Could R&H work as a few pages of rules modifying the Guard list? Like a general "replace AM keyword with renegade", lists of disallowed units like creed, new set of doctrines/traits/relics/stratagems/powers and then maybe a few datasheets for things like enforcers? I know that an entire new list would be better but what would be the "minimal viable product"? Or a better question is probably what is the least that you could find acceptable?

Plus, setting R&H up as alternate-guard would increase sales to Chaos players. Maybe FW could release a simple conversion kit for Cadians, with spikes!


Yesn't, the core issue is that R&H is not "just guard with spikes".
R&H were all types of mortal followers of chaos, aswell as not chaos.
IA 13 represented this by demagogue devotions, think of them as prototrait system that actually cost points for specific limits and unlocks.

Conceptually it also used an adaptable troop unit to represent anything from PDF, Lobotomized techno servants to propper traitor guard formations, done via upgrade to them that were unlocked or mandatory depending on your demagogue.

Basically, the list included, Darkmech with daemonengine support and mass lobotimized skitari, radical ideologica / religious rebelions, Hiveworld revolts , traitor guard formations, mutant uprisings, Military coup style lists, and vraks style (whatever that was) etc. and could so well.

And that is not even going into if you chose a chaos god, or not, which also gave you specific units or denied them.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Gadzilla666 wrote:
But feth "cadians with spikes". We should at least get unique troops sculpts. A multi part kit of the bsf traitor guard would be great. I love those models.


I would guess that plastics are just not feasible. You really do need to sell a lot of them to cover the costs. Like, an insane amount. Injection mould development is expensive, and you have to take into account the opportunity cost. They could be making something that would sell far better than renegades.

Now FW resin is a bit more likely. Especially if it is a conversion kit.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
But feth "cadians with spikes". We should at least get unique troops sculpts. A multi part kit of the bsf traitor guard would be great. I love those models.


I would guess that plastics are just not feasible. You really do need to sell a lot of them to cover the costs. Like, an insane amount. Injection mould development is expensive, and you have to take into account the opportunity cost. They could be making something that would sell far better than renegades.

Now FW resin is a bit more likely. Especially if it is a conversion kit.

Bsf traitor guard are plastic.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





but not monopose.

Which sprues are a lot more difficult to design.

That said, the hard part is done, there will probably CAD file be in existence.

but considering the prices of "new" (improved ) kits it would for me probably be cheaper to buy a 3d Printer...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker




Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
But feth "cadians with spikes". We should at least get unique troops sculpts. A multi part kit of the bsf traitor guard would be great. I love those models.


I would guess that plastics are just not feasible. You really do need to sell a lot of them to cover the costs. Like, an insane amount. Injection mould development is expensive, and you have to take into account the opportunity cost. They could be making something that would sell far better than renegades.

Now FW resin is a bit more likely. Especially if it is a conversion kit.

Bsf traitor guard are plastic.


It's also not like every traitor guard army would need 3+ boxes minimum to even be remotely useful.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Historically speaking R&H Militia ( even traitor guard nievau Upgrade ones cost slighlty less because of bulk buy upgrades) could be fielded cheaper then conscripts and were very much a troop centric horde army.

Heck even my mechanized force uses 70 infantry models without even going into tanks and HQ and that force isn't even 2000pts strong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 10:25:22


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Bsf traitor guard are plastic.


That is like 14 push-fit miniatures. That is not a range.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Bsf traitor guard are plastic.


That is like 14 push-fit miniatures. That is not a range.


( 1hq, 3 elites, 3troops, )
That's pretty close

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Bsf traitor guard are plastic.


That is like 14 push-fit miniatures. That is not a range.


( 1hq, 3 elites, 3troops, )
That's pretty close

And as you said, they have the CAD, wouldn't be that hard to make a multi part kit with some options. If they can recoup the costs for a zoat they could do it for traitor guard.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Gadzilla666 wrote:
And as you said, they have the CAD, wouldn't be that hard to make a multi part kit with some options. If they can recoup the costs for a zoat they could do it for traitor guard.


You are vastly underestimating the amount of work needed to accomplish that.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
And as you said, they have the CAD, wouldn't be that hard to make a multi part kit with some options. If they can recoup the costs for a zoat they could do it for traitor guard.


You are vastly underestimating the amount of work needed to accomplish that.

Compared to the amount already dedicated to the current kit created for a niche specialist game? And similar kits designed for similar specialist games?
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Compared to the amount already dedicated to the current kit created for a niche specialist game? And similar kits designed for similar specialist games?


Yes. You are talking about taking the designs for a limited amount of models in a boxed game, and using them to produce multipart kits in a full production run. That is a lot of work. New weapons need designing, new models, new sprue layouts. Then you need to think about production times, marketing, box art, instructions, logistics. Then you have to think about deciding how they are going to fit into the release schedule the best, and not crowd out similar products.

People get paid a lot of money to make sure all of this works. They get it because it isn't a simple task.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







Going back to the issue at hand, is there something specific they can do to stop the dominance of Leviathans and Chaplain Dreadnoughts in current tournament lists? Is nerfing the price enough or would the core stats need to change? Is a dreadnought that's also a character just simply always going to be very good thanks to 8th ed's targeting rules?

"Was wir nicht hassen, das lieben wir nicht." 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Going back to the issue at hand, is there something specific they can do to stop the dominance of Leviathans and Chaplain Dreadnoughts in current tournament lists? Is nerfing the price enough or would the core stats need to change? Is a dreadnought that's also a character just simply always going to be very good thanks to 8th ed's targeting rules?

The chaplain dread will probably go to legends because it's oop. Targeting rules weren't the problem with leviathans because it has more than 10 wounds. It was super survivable because of duty eternal and the ih bodyguard strategem. The sm FAQ nerfed those. But I could definitely see a possible points increase. Giving the loyalist version a 5++ against shooting like the chaos version would also help.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Going back to the issue at hand, is there something specific they can do to stop the dominance of Leviathans and Chaplain Dreadnoughts in current tournament lists? Is nerfing the price enough or would the core stats need to change? Is a dreadnought that's also a character just simply always going to be very good thanks to 8th ed's targeting rules?


Dominance, through what.

Consider the following, they weren't picked, even the superior SM ones, when there were no supplements, do you seriously consider these two an issue or the supplement rules?

Honest question, also nerfing the leviathan, one of the few FW models actually decently priced and not overpriced garbage would just again hurt everyone else beyond for the outlier. Which is not fun.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Going back to the issue at hand, is there something specific they can do to stop the dominance of Leviathans and Chaplain Dreadnoughts in current tournament lists? Is nerfing the price enough or would the core stats need to change? Is a dreadnought that's also a character just simply always going to be very good thanks to 8th ed's targeting rules?

The chaplain dread will probably go to legends because it's oop.

Ah, good point. I thought that was still up for sale, but looks like they've pulled the entire Mk IV chassis range, apart from Bray'arth Ashmantle for whatever godforsaken reason. I would be surprised if OOP Forgeworld models will even merit inclusion among Legends. The FW way has always been to discontinue models at short notice and without a trace, I doubt these rules will be much different.

"Was wir nicht hassen, das lieben wir nicht." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




At this point I would just like sone actually vaguely playable rules that means taking some of my cool FW models doesn't automatically feel like I could be picking better units for less points out of the codex.

GW's approach has too often been to buff the crap out of poorly writen units and leave FW models with the same weapons or abilities playing with the old unbuffed rules.

Likr seriously why does a shadowsword have almost the same avarage shots as a falcion which has 2 volcano cannons?
3D3 (potentially rerollable) vrs 2D6 like really it's should clealry be 6D3 if that's how they gona rule it but nah stuck with an avarage of 7 shots vrs 6 shots for a twin volcanon cannon GG for balance there.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Compared to the amount already dedicated to the current kit created for a niche specialist game? And similar kits designed for similar specialist games?


Yes. You are talking about taking the designs for a limited amount of models in a boxed game, and using them to produce multipart kits in a full production run. That is a lot of work. New weapons need designing, new models, new sprue layouts. Then you need to think about production times, marketing, box art, instructions, logistics. Then you have to think about deciding how they are going to fit into the release schedule the best, and not crowd out similar products.

People get paid a lot of money to make sure all of this works. They get it because it isn't a simple task.

Yeah, I get that. The point is why would it be such a greater burden to do that compared to any other unit? Every unit has the same logistical issues. And considering the existence of the bsf kit there's a pretty good chance it could already be in the works.

What, gw can produce an entire armies worth of space marine lieutenants but not one box of guardsmen?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
At this point I would just like sone actually vaguely playable rules that means taking some of my cool FW models doesn't automatically feel like I could be picking better units for less points out of the codex.

GW's approach has too often been to buff the crap out of poorly writen units and leave FW models with the same weapons or abilities playing with the old unbuffed rules.

Likr seriously why does a shadowsword have almost the same avarage shots as a falcion which has 2 volcano cannons?
3D3 (potentially rerollable) vrs 2D6 like really it's should clealry be 6D3 if that's how they gona rule it but nah stuck with an avarage of 7 shots vrs 6 shots for a twin volcanon cannon GG for balance there.

All that for just roughly twice the cost. Go gw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 13:06:29


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

 Trickstick wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they just fixed all the points for most stuff. R&h needs more than that though.


Could R&H work as a few pages of rules modifying the Guard list? Like a general "replace AM keyword with renegade", lists of disallowed units like creed, new set of doctrines/traits/relics/stratagems/powers and then maybe a few datasheets for things like enforcers? I know that an entire new list would be better but what would be the "minimal viable product"? Or a better question is probably what is the least that you could find acceptable?

Plus, setting R&H up as alternate-guard would increase sales to Chaos players. Maybe FW could release a simple conversion kit for Cadians, with spikes!


The very first incarnation of R&H was exactly that. It was a variant Guard list with access to a lot of static emplacements, off-board artillery, minefields, Tarantulas, and the like.

Over the years it evolved into a replacement for the old Lost And The Damned list. There were a bunch of army-wide upgrades that shaped their abilities, so you could run anything from the original Vraksian traitor guard to mutant hordes to disgruntled miners to mercenaries.

Bringing it back to a variant AM list might work as a stopgap, but would certainly hurt the players who used the list for its 'catch-all' nature.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Just some Ad Mech rules would be nice.

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