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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Deadnight, I think you nailed it there.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark


Indeed, and this isn't a bad thing either. Its an observation, not a criticism.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?



It is what it is. Its not necessarily 'a problem, and it certainly appeals to a specific subset of thr broader community. Again, not a problem. There is nothing wrong with a niche interest being catered to those within the niche, despite what some will say. If wargaming stays as it is, I'll still.enjoy my interpretation of it.

However, in the context of the conversation that's unfolded we are also talking about why those who don't find it appealing aren't interested (in this case, female players) and by extension broadening the appeal and expanding the community to get them imvolved.

That involves change.

You want to attract more female gamers?

Create a gaming eco system and a community that female gamers will find appealing. We live in the era of metoo, black lives matter, happypride and God knows how many other (legitimate) hashtags and undoubtedly some attention seeking ones. Sometimes rather than changing the window dressing (the game being played, or token representations within said games), if you want to get the big results you're asking for, you need to do the hard work of changing the culture behind the community. The rest will follow organically.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




setting the rest of argument aside how is female (or PoC for the matter) representation "token"? I'm always amazed at how the most widely represented groups claim any representation of less-represented groups is "token". As if the existence of women is only justified if they serve a purpose for the men.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Cronch wrote:
setting the rest of argument aside how is female (or PoC for the matter) representation "token"? I'm always amazed at how the most widely represented groups claim any representation of less-represented groups is "token". As if the existence of women is only justified if they serve a purpose for the men.



Oh please.

It Should be obvious what 'token' refers to in this case. Maybe I'm too old and cynical, but it Just seems too often, this is seen as an easy corporate ticktox to get ticked off.

I don't think I'm wrong in saying there's still far fewer of these types of minis than 'default white male', not that the latter is 'wrong' in and of itself. I'm looking at the reasoning and corporate politics behind why which models are made and how they are conceived and marketed. Often times those 'other' models are just a gesture. A token gesture. While their inclusion is good, and meaningful, and definitely better in more recent than years, it doesn't necessarily bring about the changes people are demanding. Hence what I was referring to with a deeper need to change our gaming culture itself, with references to some of the current cultural shifts that are taking place right now, all of which, for the record are things I strongly agree with.

And the last line of your post is completely unwarranted. Its got nothing to.do with what I've been saying and frankly I find it coming close to an unwarranted misconstruction of my point and an oblique and indirect personal attack to boot.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 14:34:04


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 cuda1179 wrote:
Deadnight, I think you nailed it there.
Indeed, though I think he (unintentionally) overgeneralizes male wargaming culture a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
And the last line of your post is completely unwarranted. Its got nothing to.do with what I've been saying and frankly I find it coming close to an unwarranted misconstruction of my point and an oblique and indirect personal attack to boot.
FWIW I read it the same way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 14:39:12


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Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.


Technically its the Pound £

Honestly GW has approached broadening their scope by not dulling their content or changing it if at all really. They've gone the social pathway of outreach, which in theory should see an increase in diversity with minimal loss of customers (if any detectable loss at all).

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.
FWIW I think that's a great question to ask.

To my eyes the goal is, as ever, expanding the community. If wargaming gets more popular we all win. While the greater appeal to men (for a variety of reasons) is going to see a male-dominated community regardless we can see from other areas of gaming that there is an untapped market for significant numbers of women as well. Those are potential members of the community, and customers for companies, that are on the sidelines.

As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.


Technically its the Pound £
But they use the metric system so shouldn't it be the Kilogram?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:39:04


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Denison, Iowa

 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.


While I am sure that some men would leave just because of an uptick in women players, what I really meant was that what if the marketing/store atmosphere/etc were changed to attract more women. Anytime you change to appeal more to one demographic you lose a bit of another. This effect can be seen in something as mundane as switching the color pallet on an advertisement. It's not that the product is seen as worse, just different.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.




I can appreciate value for social groups isolating themselves - like with like - within reason. Sometimes it is nice just to have a "lads/gals night out" etc... So I see no problem with single gender social groups.

I think the key is that such things become an optional side rather than a mandatory one.


To pick a neat example, at one time pubs were men only. Women were not allowed within pubs. It was an enforced mono-gender culture and there was no choice.
Today both enjoy the use of pubs. In fact the majority of the time its multigender the whole time.

And yet we also still have stag and hen nights. We still have lads and gals nights out etc....

They are an optional aspect of the social groups.



So for wargames I've no problem if some groups remain mono-gender or have a mono-gender night/evening/event every so often etc... Provided that, at large, groups are welcoming to women.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






@Cuda I'm not sure about that. To take the concept to an abstract level, does going from greyscale advertising to full color advertising make it less appealing to a certain demographic?

Bringing it back down to the practical; if there are customers pushed away by more diverse races & genders in promotional material, were those even people we wanted as part of the community in the first place? To put it bluntly how bigoted does someone have to be to leave wargaming over that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.




I can appreciate value for social groups isolating themselves - like with like - within reason. Sometimes it is nice just to have a "lads/gals night out" etc... So I see no problem with single gender social groups.

I think the key is that such things become an optional side rather than a mandatory one.


To pick a neat example, at one time pubs were men only. Women were not allowed within pubs. It was an enforced mono-gender culture and there was no choice.
Today both enjoy the use of pubs. In fact the majority of the time its multigender the whole time.

And yet we also still have stag and hen nights. We still have lads and gals nights out etc....

They are an optional aspect of the social groups.



So for wargames I've no problem if some groups remain mono-gender or have a mono-gender night/evening/event every so often etc... Provided that, at large, groups are welcoming to women.
A great point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 19:15:42


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Been Around the Block





Game companies absolutely have the monetary incentive to grow and sustain a player basis to keep in business, same with brick and mortar shop owners.

I don't think it's diversity for diversity sake, but why wouldn't we want more people(anyone) who are keen to geek around with in this niche corner of the world? Wargames are social activities, why do join them if you don't like people?

There are other areas online this article is being discussed, by women , and the consensus from ones who do/want to play, don't feel welcomed in existing spaces or have been actively chased away. They buy online or minimize flgs trips, and play in trusted groups. I'm sure some of us haven't always felt welcome. I'd want more people to wargame and modelcraft with, and might given some new places opening up again. It'd suck to sink hundreds if not thousands of dollars into a game system no one else wants to play, or play against you...
If some guys leave because women or PoC want to join, are those really people we're going to miss in the long run?
If it does turn out that the majority of guy wargamers would (rage)quit because others came into their space and the hobby imploded...I'd start re-examining some life choices. I'd still play, just with different people, and branch out to try new things? Like the squats, life is too short.

From observational experience of growth and those around me, people who are averse to changing environments or social dynamics often have other issues they should probably be dealing with, usually some kind of trauma. They aren't living their best life, using the hobby as a semi-functioning coping instead of investing in actual help, and they don't ask for help because perceptions of weakness? It's one thing if it's localized to self-destructive behavior, but quite another when it impacts other people's experiences. Like alcoholism. I don't mean to sound facetious about seeing counselors or therapies, those are tools, much like fine tip brushes for painting eyes...some people just avoid painting eyepieces.
   
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Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

If you change something it's necessarily not what attracted people to it in the first place.
That change may be minor and not important, or it may be major.

You mentioned black and white vs colour. I have an interest in history and there are absolutely people that dislike colourised images as they feel it changes the original B&W too much.
They don't leave the historical interest groups, but they do avoid colourised images.

Applying that specifically to wargaming, it was mentioned a key factor that deters many women is the 'culture of strangers' around wargaming. You pick up and play without really getting to know your opponent or making a connection beyond the tabletop.
There are many existing wargamers that would not like that culture to change. Speaking for myself, I'm very uncomfortable inserting myself into a new social group and the expectation that I would need to do so to enjoy wargames would stop me.
In fact, it's why I don't play DnD.

So, given that, yes it's true that more players = better. But would changing that culture attract more players than it deterred?
I would argue likely not, RPGs like DnD are better suited to a tight community dynamic and I think wargames would struggle to poach those players.
Leading them to driving off people that would be attracted the current culture without gaining much as a return.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 20:07:50


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Yes but this isn't you joining a new social group, its about your group accepting 1 person new every so often; perhaps 2 or 3 now and then. Or even doing a demo day and attracting several new people.

That wouldn't stop you playing with the people you know, it would just slowly extend your circle of social interactions.



No/few groups are going to grow in a massive way. This is still a niche hobby and mass growth is unlikely.


That said we are also talking in the general sense; there will certainly and always be groups that form that don't work toward adding others. Group by group there will be those that never expand beyond a few friends; those that don't want to make a club and just want to be a few friends having a game.

Or perhaps your group will grow but you'll have classic nights where the old guard get together for fun alone.

   
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Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I don't think you really grasped the point I was making.

We do accept new players occasionally, although those new players are almost always men. So from the context of this thread I'm guessing thats not actually what you mean.

Clearly, increasing the numbers/proportion of women is going to take more than just a willingness to accept new players.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 PondaNagura wrote:

From observational experience of growth and those around me, people who are averse to changing environments or social dynamics often have other issues they should probably be dealing with, usually some kind of trauma. They aren't living their best life, using the hobby as a semi-functioning coping instead of investing in actual help, and they don't ask for help because perceptions of weakness? It's one thing if it's localized to self-destructive behavior, but quite another when it impacts other people's experiences. Like alcoholism. I don't mean to sound facetious about seeing counselors or therapies, those are tools, much like fine tip brushes for painting eyes...some people just avoid painting eyepieces.


This is an excellent point, especially in light of America's past failure to recognize mental health issues at all, and general reluctance to do so even now. It's a subset of the overall health care debate and thus has become heavily politicized and we can't discuss it further here, but it does contribute to the issue at hand.
   
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Exalted Beastlord




Cyel wrote:
This thread reminded me of a certain picture of mine, now more than 15y old It's really funny still. As I have said, I'va always had friends and partners from the nerdy community of gaming and fantasy. I've been very commited to have them in this hobby, but never managed to do so, despite running countless demos, buying and painting armies they liked the look of for them etc. Here I am doing some wargaming and my ex and some of our friends came to see how it goes (and those are nerdy girls - all of them avid RPG/LARP players, the redhead actually used to be a wargamer, but left when she split ways with her wargaming boyfriend)

Facial expressions are enough



Yep. Watching someone else move models around isn't very engaging. They'd probably have very different expressions if they were involved rather than an audience to a two person game.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Dakka Veteran



London

 Irkjoe wrote:

As opposed to the reality where evil white men are keeping poor women out of wargaming? For the sake of discussion, why is it bad that wargaming is primarily men and why do women need to be brought in? What's left for men? Couldn't even let them have the boy scouts.


Well an activity doesn't have to be mono gender to be for men. Go to an all male group if you want to escape women. Can be knitting if you like, get darning your socks like a bloke from the 50's. Any activity in its execution can be for just men, but the existence of female or mixed groups doing the same thing shouldn't affect you. But certainly companies would like all segments of the market to be open to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.


For me I want as many people playing as possible. Hopefully a variety of games and not just GW. I would like the hobby I have spent many a year in to grow in numbers and have a wide gamut of people play making it easier to find opponents and friends I get along with. I think a more diverse baseline of players gives more opportunity for growth.

If having a more diverse group means some leave (or form their own little groups), I am fine with that as the types of people I get along with don't tend to be the ones that would retreat into ivory towers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How have we gone 8 pages with no duffleblog links...
https://www.duffelblog.com/p/navy-considers-crotch-level-rank

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 09:05:13


 
   
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Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

Cyel wrote:
I think it is obvious that women in chess are NOT less intelligent, it's absurd. But I can see how they may lack this totally obsessive commitment that men show all the time an that is required to go this final distance. At some point maybe they think "you know what, I don't care that much about some abstract game that proves nothing." In absence of other evidence I tend to see how it makes sense.

And wargames are built out of obsessive commitment - money, time, effort spent incomparable to video games or board games.

There was a post on the 40K forum here (State of 40k, I guess, I don't remember), where someone was saying that his partner didn't like 40k because there was no way of winning the game by means of negotiations, subterfuge or intrigue.

My wife loves Divinity2 split-screen but she never bothers with a bit more optimising - little things I see could be done better. She's not stupid, she's a computer programmer. She just doesn't care that much to push harder with something irrelevant IRL.

Some of you say that wargamers are perceived as nerdy and weird. But having spent a lot of time with LARPing groups I can say with confidence that a) there were wayyy more unsocial, geeky-cringy weridos doing LARPing than in wargaming b)LARPing is considered a much more cringe-inducing activity by outside groups (funnily including wargamers). And still female particiation has always been pretty close to 50%. But LARPs, unlike wargaming, are centered around human interaction, conversation, intrigue, subterfuge, conspiracy etc

So far I don't see any evidence that disproves that women ON AVERAGE (there are always outliers, it's called evolution)
a) don't share men's obsessive commitment to - even abstract - competition
b) appreciate when interpersonal stuff in recreated in games


I agree with everything said here. Its a perspective I think a lot of people don't fathom. That being said, I think it is a good thing that we think about these things, and its a good thing that we ask these questions. If there is a way we can get more fans and players into wargaming, it can lead to good things for both wargaming companies, and current players. Any time any hobby or interest has exploded and became a mainstream industry, the stuff that has come out of such things have improved dramatically. I for one would love to see WH40K evolve into something even better than it is right now. Or even see something come out that would draw me more than 40K does.

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Well said sir!

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Deadnight wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark


Indeed, and this isn't a bad thing either. Its an observation, not a criticism.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?



It is what it is. Its not necessarily 'a problem, and it certainly appeals to a specific subset of thr broader community. Again, not a problem. There is nothing wrong with a niche interest being catered to those within the niche, despite what some will say. If wargaming stays as it is, I'll still.enjoy my interpretation of it.

However, in the context of the conversation that's unfolded we are also talking about why those who don't find it appealing aren't interested (in this case, female players) and by extension broadening the appeal and expanding the community to get them imvolved.

That involves change.

You want to attract more female gamers?

Create a gaming eco system and a community that female gamers will find appealing. We live in the era of metoo, black lives matter, happypride and God knows how many other (legitimate) hashtags and undoubtedly some attention seeking ones. Sometimes rather than changing the window dressing (the game being played, or token representations within said games), if you want to get the big results you're asking for, you need to do the hard work of changing the culture behind the community. The rest will follow organically.


Alternatively we need more introverted women who also want less sociable social activities
   
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MN

Adding more RPG Lite into wargames would be a great step, especially at the skirmish level.

I recall seeing the recap of an INQ28 game* where the two sides resolve the scenario and did not shoot at each other or try to hit each other with a hammer once! They resolved the entire scenario via role-playing and talking! Mind blown! It opened my eyes to how much RPG Lite we could add to wargames if designers really wanted to.



*= I am sure it was at one of Commissar Molotov's events back in the day but do not recall who was participating. They maybe around here on the forums. They had all built and fluffed out their retinues over the course of the previous few months, so each Inquisitor and warband had a very strong sense of character to them.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Easy E wrote:
I recall seeing the recap of an INQ28 game* where the two sides resolve the scenario and did not shoot at each other or try to hit each other with a hammer once! They resolved the entire scenario via role-playing and talking! Mind blown! It opened my eyes to how much RPG Lite we could add to wargames if designers really wanted to.
It comes down to the difference between expanding your audience and moving your target audience (or fragmenting your game into different versions).

Something like the recent upsurge of interest in chess would be an example of expanding the appeal. Same game but a lot of work done with presentation and accessibility.

At the other end of the spectrum you could replace all of the dice rolling in 40k with a dance off, gain some players who wouldn't have played it before and lose some existing players. Not easy to have your cake and eat it while making those kinds of changes - if you have a game which is too social for some and too unsocial for others, too complex for some and too simple for others, and so on you generally can't go both ways.
   
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 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to question people's motivations for statements they make.


As long as you answer what is a reasonable question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As well, Introversion is not inherently bad. If anything, it would be just as inherently bad if so as extroversion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 17:01:27


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The thing is, quite frequently the question someone literally asks is not the question they want an answer to. There's a lot to the dynamic of why, but it is common in conversation. From his post I got the distinct sense that it wasn't really about a proposed solution, and he definitely seemed agitated so I felt it best to get to the bottom of that first. I wasn't trying to mock or anything like that, it was a legitimate attempt at understanding.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 17:33:29


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The thing is, quite frequently the question someone literally asks is not the question they want an answer to. There's a lot to the dynamic of why, but it is common in conversation. From his post I got the distinct sense that it wasn't really about a proposed solution, and he definitely seemed agitated so I felt it best to get to the bottom of that first. I wasn't trying to mock or anything like that, it was a legitimate attempt at understanding.


Or you just wanted to pose doubt in the question. If you wanted to get to the bottom of it, save it for a PM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 17:47:55


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No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.

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New York City

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.


Sarcasm. So savage.

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I wasn't being sarcastic.

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