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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I think we also need to consider biases within the women. Women are not saints just as men are not devils. I'm sure there are sociatal pressures from many angles that would bias women from wargaming even if we were the most welcome and open demographic ever. Part of that is not wanting to hang out with nerds, even if you are one. It reminds me of a study on fat acceptance. Women with the opinion that men should be interested in curvy women were themselves biased towards more fit men.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 19:41:28


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Yes, there’s a whole rich tapestry to explore. From personally experience, my wife was not as interested in Sisters of Battle (or any of the religious satire angle) because of her experience growing up in a religious household, which was very different from her brothers’. Made the over the top satire seem less over the top.

ButI couldn’t begin to extrapolate how much of the female gamer population would have had similar experiences.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


...using QAR and reality in the same sentence? With a straight face? Oh dear.

Anyway - there's a decently-large community of female miniature painters out there, with Victoria Lamb probably being of the first of the "big names" in that segment. If we were to try to get to the bottom of this, it would seem that some form of survey of a statistically-significant proportion of that market segment would seem a suitable starting point, though I'm not sure how many people you'd need to respond to hit that threshold, or even what the questions would need to be.

Possibly a similar survey of female players in the RPG, CCG and boardgame sectors as well.

We can speculate all we want, but we need to ask the affected people in order to gather suitable data.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






 Dysartes wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


...using QAR and reality in the same sentence? With a straight face? Oh dear.

Anyway - there's a decently-large community of female miniature painters out there, with Victoria Lamb probably being of the first of the "big names" in that segment. If we were to try to get to the bottom of this, it would seem that some form of survey of a statistically-significant proportion of that market segment would seem a suitable starting point, though I'm not sure how many people you'd need to respond to hit that threshold, or even what the questions would need to be.


As opposed to the reality where evil white men are keeping poor women out of wargaming? For the sake of discussion, why is it bad that wargaming is primarily men and why do women need to be brought in? What's left for men? Couldn't even let them have the boy scouts.


   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






It isn't bad, nor do women need to be brought in. The point being made is that there are women who WOULD play wargames but are driven away by people with a misogynistic slant. Don't know why you are on about boy scouts, unless they started up merit badges for wargaming they don't have anything to do with this (and I mean that non-sarcastically as for all I know they have).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:05:25


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





GW does actually "sponsor" the UK Scouts Model Maker badge and sends out free hobby starter kits. Pretty neat IMO.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Ah, thank you for the info!
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:35:49


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:41:49


 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

From my experience, that's tough to do.


Agreed. It's very easy for advocators to start speaking over the group they want to help rather than actually allowing the people they're supposedly representing to speak. It's also not a blanket monolithic entity for every person from that group to want the same things either so it's easy to overlook the nuances.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:43:50


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.

It isn't like women have not been asked before, or that they haven't answered.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:47:24


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well. I can think of two boyfriends I would cheerfully have put in concrete...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 22:56:10


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:03:35


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?


You can play the games with anyone you want, and make as many fart and dong jokes as you like. Plenty of boardgame and RPG groups do that too

That's not the question here though. The question is why women play RPGs, play boargames and paint minis, but don't seem very well represented in the tabletop wargaming scene.

You don't worry about it - that's fine. You can bet that GW is asking why half its potential audience isn't interested
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Momotaro wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.


I mean fair enough, but consider the fact that we have asked women, and that generally is the response, give or take specific local cultural factors. You can interact right now with women gamers on Facebook. Yes, I get the irony of speaking up for a community I am not a part of, but there sure aren’t a lot of women willing to self-identify as such on Dakka any more to speak up, are there?

My wife has pretty much said all those things. She’d only play Space Hulk and Battle for Macragge as Tyranids, for example, and won’t return to the FLGS due to creepers. I know representation matters to her because it comes up in other games we play, such as Forbidden Fortress, but the ship for her ever getting into 40k is long gone. My brother’s wife will play DND and Legion/Star Wars RPG but not with the public. Neither of them are willing to sign up here and talk about their experiences, though.


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.


I'm the problem because I ask people what they want? No.

I'm astonished that my stance - ask someone what they want, then provide it for them - should be so controversial.

It's claimed, jokingly, that the worst thing you can do to a software developer is tie them up, gag them, and make them watch a user interact with their new programme.

The user is always -always- a disaster. They use the software wrong, they try to use it for things it was never designed to do.

The point is this: the developer needs to learn that the problems the user want to solve, and the way they go about it, are NOT necessarily what the developer envisioned. Yet it's the user who decides whether the software is a commercial success or not. It is a painful lesson.

People will use tabletop games to scratch their particular itch, or they will use something else. Ask women what they want, and listen -listen- to the answer. I personally don't believe we HAVE done both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.


I mean fair enough, but consider the fact that we have asked women, and that generally is the response, give or take specific local cultural factors. You can interact right now with women gamers on Facebook. Yes, I get the irony of speaking up for a community I am not a part of, but there sure aren’t a lot of women willing to self-identify as such on Dakka any more to speak up, are there?

My wife has pretty much said all those things. She’d only play Space Hulk and Battle for Macragge as Tyranids, for example, and won’t return to the FLGS due to creepers. I know representation matters to her because it comes up in other games we play, such as Forbidden Fortress, but the ship for her ever getting into 40k is long gone. My brother’s wife will play DND and Legion/Star Wars RPG but not with the public. Neither of them are willing to sign up here and talk about their experiences, though.



It's entirely possible that the FLGS and pickup game--centred model that GW pushes is inimical to women compared to home/family/friends RPG and board games. It may be that wargames attract a creepier/geekier male audience. Women may just like playing at war less than men. My wife isn't a gamer, and calls my gaming "Sylvanian Families" because I'm more interested in story and character these days. I've said many times that I'd have built dollshouses if wargames didn't exist.

Women differ as much as men.

I fancy that most tabletop gamers play at home too, but I have female friends who play(ed, before lockdown) pickup boardgames and RPGs at local games cafes. The wargames gap remains a bit baffling to me - I do accept your points though.

I've taken non-gaming girlfriends to cons, in the distant past. Some were ok with it, most hated it, one girl loved it and spent the day chatting to everyone about minis.

I'm pretty sure we're coming fom the same angle - I agreed with you in my first post. Point is - I'm prepared to admit I don't know.

I do corporate-level troubleshooting in my day to day life, and often walk into business cultures I initially don't understand. Fire and Rescue don't work like Legal. Ask and listen, accept and then you can begin to fix things..

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:53:52


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Momotaro wrote:
Spoiler:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.


I'm the problem because I ask people what they want? No.

I'm astonished that my stance - ask someone what they want, then provide it for them - should be so controversial.
I think I am communicating unclearly, because the message you are getting is most certainly not the one I wish to send. Let me try again; I entirely agree with your stance in regards to asking and providing, I just feel that it is not relevant to the initial comment because we are several steps past that. Women were asked, the solution was provided, and now it is a matter of applying the same solution to Wargaming.

You say it is important to listen, so listen. Women are still telling us the answer--it hasn't changed. That you seem to believe they haven't is the most concerning element out of all of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:59:44


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

The same holds true for just about every armored figure ever. Add breasts and you're sexualizing it, no breasts and there's no representation.

No-win scenario right there.

Fewer creepers in stores? Well, we do what we can. Sometimes the store refuses to kick out ANY customer, however obnoxious and unwanted. Sometimes creeper is a friend of the boss. Heck, sometimes he IS the boss. At which point all one can realistically do is find another venue, which we should do.

But WHEN we do, don't blame US that creeper-filled store we no longer attend is full of creepers. Blame the store management for allowing the creepers to stay and accumulate. There's literally nothing we can do if the creepers spend enough to keep creeper-store in business.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 00:50:27


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Philadelphia PA

 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.


Ah... because he IS being attacked? Telling someone 'you're a misogynist and a horrible person' is an attack. ESPECIALLY in this day and age where such accusations can get you fired and blacklisted regardless of merit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScarletRose wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.


No idea if there are female Stormcast. Don't play Age of Sigmarines. But the same applies there, just because there are no breasts on the breastplate doesn't mean there isn't a woman under there.

And there are, indeed, women who get offended if you DO put breasts on them.

So please, explain to me how this is a strawman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 01:15:31


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

 ScarletRose wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.



This isn't really a strawman when such things have actually happened. A rather high-profile feminist, who shall not be named do to it being linked to politics, was once rightfully heckled for calling out video games. She argued that one video game was sexist because the female character was "female in name only" because she was literally just a reskinning of the male option animation. She simultaneously called out another game because they gave a female character a more female walk instead of just a reskinned animation.


As far as representation goes we've had that argument before. 40k is much more representative than you think. Ork, Necron, Tau, Tyranids, and Daemons are all sexless, uni-gender, or the genders are indistinguishable. Space Marines are a problem, and a lot of that is that they make up a vast bulk of the played armies. Sisters are also problematic for their lack of male representation. Imperiad Guard could use some more women in the ranks, I'll give you that, but with their new upgrade sprue that's less of an issue now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 02:28:39


 
   
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 cuda1179 wrote:
As far as representation goes we've had that argument before. 40k is much more representative than you think. Ork, Necron, Tau, Tyranids, and Daemons are all sexless, uni-gender, or the genders are indistinguishable. Space Marines are a problem, and a lot of that is that they make up a vast bulk of the played armies. Sisters are also problematic for their lack of male representation. Imperiad Guard could use some more women in the ranks, I'll give you that, but with their new upgrade sprue that's less of an issue now.


There's also Eldar that have been mixed gender since as long as I've been playing.

IG have the new upgrade sprue but I can't help but feel it's just an excuse to charge more money for old tired Cadian models. Cadians are now more expensive than Tactical Marines, and you get 39 heads in a box with only 10 troopers.

A problem with representation in wargaming is always going to that historically men have taken a bigger part in war, so outside of fantastical settings you'll typically have more male soldiers by orders of magnitude, and fantasy games that are going for more of a historically grounded vibe will often go down the same path.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:04:02


 
   
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Bodt

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.


He's provided a statement backed up by evidence and posed an additional question. You should answer the question posed instead of deflecting to an attack on the questioner.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 05:59:34


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A problem with representation in wargaming is always going to that historically men have taken a bigger part in war, so outside of fantastical settings you'll typically have more male soldiers by orders of magnitude, and fantasy games that are going for more of a historically grounded vibe will often go down the same path.
A valid point. I think with GW dominating the market though, and running settings where realism isn't particularly relevant they have the leeway. And they are certainly using it. GW has been relatively good about treating genders equally in miniature form and have been tossing in female sculpts into SCE and StDs. Some are a bit meh but others are pretty dam sweet. If they keep making stuff looking like that new SCE named character I think everyone can be happy.
   
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It's perfectly reasonable to question people's motivations for statements they make.

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This thread reminded me of a certain picture of mine, now more than 15y old It's really funny still. As I have said, I'va always had friends and partners from the nerdy community of gaming and fantasy. I've been very commited to have them in this hobby, but never managed to do so, despite running countless demos, buying and painting armies they liked the look of for them etc. Here I am doing some wargaming and my ex and some of our friends came to see how it goes (and those are nerdy girls - all of them avid RPG/LARP players, the redhead actually used to be a wargamer, but left when she split ways with her wargaming boyfriend)

Facial expressions are enough

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 07:33:21


 
   
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Personally I think a lot of it is the social dynamics and 'types' of games being played. Also that our hobby has a significant minority of people who are somewhere on the 'socially awkward/creepy' scale. Imo plenty gamers make me uncomfortable and not want to hang round, it's worse for girls. I strongly suspect girls don't get involved for what they see of the community, rather than space marines don't have female astartes.

My wife played rugby. Until while bunch of injuries forced her out. Some of our best friends are the girls she played rugby with. Rugby girls really are the best. Girls can absolutely be filthy minded and girls can absolutely be competitive. So don't go thinking that low brow humour or winner/loser is a big deterrent.

They've been round ours, they love my hobby room,they think my painted doods are awesome. They're not against the hobby side or the models - in fact they think what I do is great. One took pictures of my display cabinets and shows people. Would they play? Thinking of 4 in particular, including my wife - 3 lean strongly to sports (and competition etc) while one leans more towards gaming (she plays gears etc semi-casually). If I put down blood bowl and umpire it (call out the dice resolutions let them know what/how something can be done) they're all on board, stemming both from gaming and sports. It's something we'll spend an evening on, no hassle. Other games though? Of the 4, I think one,maybe 2 could be persuaded into something like shadespire. I think necromunda or more complex games are beyond their level of interest. Mass battle games like 40k? No interest. Would they join me in going to a games club? I think one would enjoy our Friday night games, which are laid back, casual.and at a friend's house. It's as much chat and tea and 'friends hanging out' as it is dice rolling. Shed come back because it's a friendly, open and welcoming environment. Would she enjoy a 'pick up game' at the local store or club against a stranger, even knowing I was there as a 'friendly face'? I strongly doubt it.

It's been brought up - girls play rpgs, girls play video games, girls play board games. Girls game, Full stop. Let's not pretend otherwise. And I welcome that they do.

What you need to realise, when girls game, they socialise. 'I play games' equally means 'I play dnd', 'my friends who I hang around with play dnd' and 'I spend time with my dnd friends'. Much More than us guys. Just like our rugby girls, Theyll play the game but they stay for the community. That's as, if not more important than any in-game activity. Look at the dynamics of board games groups and rpg'ers. There's often a far stronger social dynamic and 'intimacy' in the group relationships (I don't necessarily mean dating when I talk about intimacy - intimate friendships/relationships are a cornerstone of girl friends) - more akin to a sports team than you get for us wargamers. For us guys, its different. We play solo. A room of 50 people will be 25 Islands of dice rolling and model moving. we often find games mechanically interesting, but everything else can be ignored - you often see jokes that are not unfounded, how folks treat their opponents like npc's and we are oblivious to everything else in the room. There might be banter but there is very little intimacy.

Girls will often approach it differently and will want a different dynamic. I've tried to get wargamers to go to the pub for a pint afterwards or to build friendships and relationships outside of the game. and no one wanted to join me. No one wanted to invest in the community. For guys, it's often OK- we are islands. Its actually funny- you see a lot of wargamers actively hostile to the idea of community, of putting exp into anything other building a better list. Look at the hostility narrative/home brewers get for asking to 'tone it down' or 'consider matching what the other guy has'. It comes from the same place 'I shouldnt care for, or give a damn about the person at the otherside of the board. Theor bad list, their problem. I'm.gonna wield all the sharp.edges of the game and beat him. I shouldn't have to help or accomodate' . As though the notion that 'its competitive' precludes this aspect of community. Even the baseline experience is often a variation on the theme of 'I should be able to play a game against a complete stranger, not need to say anything beyond the mechanical context of the game and still be able to complete the game'. For girls, this cut throatedness and social dynamic isn't something they'll find attractive.

You want more girls involved in gaming? Change the gaming culture.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 12:04:46


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