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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It would only be mutual exploitation if the company wasn't getting its money worth out of you in the meantime, which they are - better than their money's worth, since they're using the "it'll be good for your resume!" nonsense to underpay you.

You're not exploiting a company by working for them. They are exploiting you by selling you some nonsense about how it'll look good on your resume to justify not paying you what your work is worth.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:37:07


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

You can exploit a company if such company provides training. Most engineering companies pretty much work on the assumption that university is worthless when it comes to technical skills and they will need to train their newcomers.
But when it comes to creative work? yeah you are pretty much doomed. Either work for a large corporation that will exploit you or try to create your own product that 99% of the time will crash and burn.

As for the root of the problem? GW, like any large corporation, is an inherently a sociopathic entity ruled by the laws of capitalism. The real root of the issue is the lack of minimum wage standards that ensure a living wage, but that is getting into politics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:37:52


 
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 the_scotsman wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/28 19:44:37


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Las wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.

Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.

   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


Another thing...in creative fields, TALENT matters a lot. If you have more of it, it's probably going to show, and you're going to be more valuable. If you're just okay...you're more disposable. And frankly there are many more of the latter than the former. It's not about resumes and box-checking. Any potential employer of mine is going to want to see things I've done and will judge me on those things, potentially to my face in an interview. Creative fields aren't for people with fragile egos.

I feel like an entire generation got their heads filled with ideas about doing what you love and success will come. If you want to succeed, don't do what you love...do what you're GOOD at that you can get PAID for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 20:18:55


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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Tom Kirby's wife (well not just her sitting in a room coding, but her company) got £4 million to delete all the great content on the site and start over with what you can basically see today. Maybe the back end for sales is amazing?


For that price, they managed to produce literally the only sales site on the internet I have seen that requires dumping your entire cart when you switch the country (that it incorrectly assigned you).

The bit sellers that are literally 2 people in a garage have websites that can more smoothly switch countries and currencies.

A remarkable piece of grift.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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Dakka Veteran




Blastaar wrote:
That's capitalist thinking. Supply has nothing to do with a living wage and the value of a person's labor.


I hate to break it to you but the uk is a capitalist country. Don’t see many tabletop games companies coming out of Cuba or North Korea.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Space Kim fights the swarms of the Capitalist Devourer would make an awesome tabletop game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 21:03:27


 
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 techsoldaten wrote:
 Las wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.

Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


That's the point though, isn't? So long as the labour market retains an outsized supply of creatives compared to the demand for their labour, they will inevitably be replaceable and cheap. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the labour pool of qualified S&A labour is far smaller relative to demand than creatives.

I'm curious and interested in your last point. Could you explain what you mean by the labour market adapting to supply chain management? (I'm assuming that's the acronym)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 21:04:40


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

Sarouan wrote:
 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...


This thread's gonna get closed soon, but sorry, this just isn't true. I don't see anybody in this discussion who is reducing this to "GW is Evil therefore X". You are the one doing the shoehorning.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yep, that's a pretty egregious straw man.
   
Made in ca
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine





Canada

I'm legitimately po'd that GW paid these guys so little. [I visit Dakka daily but don't log in]

What justifies Roundtree making 1.34 Million CAD, in this day and age other than 'posterity'?
It's good to see ANOTHER bonus for the key-timers again, this is what.. the second bonus since EVER?

Man, just.. erks me! I got a room dedicated to the stuff. What about dedication to proper payment? You think they paid guys like Chambers, Hoare, Jervis and Bligh that low?

:(
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.

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Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Las wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


That's the point though, isn't? So long as the labour market retains an outsized supply of creatives compared to the demand for their labour, they will inevitably be replaceable and cheap. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the labour pool of qualified S&A labour is far smaller relative to demand than creatives.

I'm curious and interested in your last point. Could you explain what you mean by the labour market adapting to supply chain management? (I'm assuming that's the acronym)


The combination of skills and abilities required to operate a successful sales program are exceedingly rare.

Not talking about the sales person at your local phone store. More like someone who can identify a serviceable addressable market, pinpoint widespread pains / gains, and manifest omniscopic channel sales through automated inbound processes.

Those people do well selling in a commodified economy, while producers / generators / creators don't precisely because commodity markets are non-deterministic. It doesn't matter who does the work so long as there's another option for where to get it.

In other words: the artist doesn't matter as much as the person who makes customers crave the product at scale.

It's not exactly supply and demand, a good sales person operates N simultaneous sales channels and extracts whatever profit can be made off each. Labor rates are inversely proportional to the number of channels that can remain productive in the market. The more fragmented consumer demand becomes, the less it makes sense to pay any particular creator much of anything. There's an argument to be made that creators deserve negative compensation during high growth phases and should be providing companies like GW work for free as a means of growing their personal brand.

While I'm not familiar with GW's compensation practices, the company has an incentive to focus compensation on sales. Sales channel operations are tacit, hard to document and often built around the trust someone has in the sales person. If that person goes to another company, they can take their knowledge of how the channel works with them. So GW is likely paying sales people enough to retire within 5 - 10 years, losing them to a competitor could be disastrous.

Conversely, creators will become important again should GW's fortunes change. If consumers lose interest in mass-produced, highly detailed models, individual artist styles could become a point of differentiation. But that's a ways off, if ever.

Similar points to make about administration. And yes, I meant supply chain management. It's become very similar to sales in important ways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 00:48:37


   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.

Sarouan wrote:
 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...


Has anybody been saying that? I don't really remember any of that. When people say "GW is Evil" they usually mean it in the sense of the company and the structures in general, not the grunts at the bottom rungs. And GW does what any other corporation does - try to minimize how much people know of the bad stuff while also making people think its a utopia. On the corporate evil scale GW is even a small fry compared to say Activision or Ubisoft. Its actually rather unfortunately that paying your staff poverty wages is really low on the scale, but when you have companies doing hijinks that makes literally anything GW can do seem tame...

Most of what people here are saying is that GW can and should do better, and that is on management.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pious Warrior Priest





My happy place.

definitely a "should do better" vibe.

Especially for the people who design their games.

I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

Co-owner of Two Idiots Printing Service, a 3D printing service. 
   
Made in gb
Crafty Goblin




Nottingham, UK

 kurhanik wrote:


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

I think the problem here is simple that GW is a "hobby company" which some people associate as "they do it as a hobby" and not that GW is a standard corporate office doing luxury products for other peoples hobby

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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Made in us
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Eye of Terror

 lagoon83 wrote:
 kurhanik wrote:


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


Yeah. £19k sounds really bad compared to the same amount USD, it's hard for people to put into perspective. If it was $19k, you'd be living very close to the bone in any US city.

For the record, salaried creatives (in the broad sense) often receive inadequate compensation relative to sales. Salaries are typically based on industry averages, and this includes people working for companies that do not enjoy the same success as GW. Something like 90% of new product offerings fail to find a product-market fit, this factors into compensation for everyone in industry.

The US Bureau of Labor and Statistics maintains salary data for job classifications across a wide spectrum of professions.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

Not sure exactly where 'game designer' fit into these categories, but multimedia designer and animators is a close cousin.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/2019/may/oes271014.htm

Technical writer might be a good comparison as well.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes273042.htm

Were one to account for differences in currency, annual leave, healthcare / social services, taxes, etc., your compensation would have put you in the lower half / bottom quadrant by either of these measures.

Your assessment that this is common amongst public companies is spot on. Any publicly-traded company receives audited financial statements annually. During this process, accountants look at labor codes for every employee and compare them with the figures cited. Overcompensation affects stock prices and the board will exert pressure to bring any exceptional compensation in line with market norms. Accountants will compare compensation to market cap of the company and it's competitors, a company that's not at the top of it's industry can actually be sued by shareholders in the US and UK for labor costs exceeding the median in any category. Plus the last thing any C-level executive wants is to have employee compensation come up on an earnings call, this is a figure most CEOs actively manage.

Something to consider: niche positions like 'rules writer' will often be classified in the stupidest way possible by an accountant who doesn't understand the first thing about how the company actually works. It's not necessarily that the company doesn't want to pay you, it's that there's top down pressure to conform to boundaries on how compensation should work.

An effective strategy for someone in this position could be to argue the position is miscategorized and undercompensated based on industry averages. Your direct report might not understand the issue, but a director or officer would. You might find they are very sympathetic when you're speaking their language.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 10:11:47


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 gorgon wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


Another thing...in creative fields, TALENT matters a lot. If you have more of it, it's probably going to show, and you're going to be more valuable. If you're just okay...you're more disposable. And frankly there are many more of the latter than the former. It's not about resumes and box-checking. Any potential employer of mine is going to want to see things I've done and will judge me on those things, potentially to my face in an interview. Creative fields aren't for people with fragile egos.

I feel like an entire generation got their heads filled with ideas about doing what you love and success will come. If you want to succeed, don't do what you love...do what you're GOOD at that you can get PAID for.


Primarily I blame the fact that university has become glorified job training. You can't start in basically any field that pays a livable wage unless you have multiple years of this advanced, expensive job training, and kids have no fething idea what they want to do when they're 18, and many many many of them basically say "uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh I dunno the thing I enjoy doing right now?"

How many people who go get expensive degrees in video game design and have these analytical minds that love breaking down game mechanics and memorizing stats and categorizing different builds would find a stigmatized field like supply chain analytics or factory output statistical analysis or accounting to be something that fits well with the way their brain works? How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

the problem is we ask people who've never experienced a career to know what career they want because no job is willing to accept anything but the most specific degree requirements.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Cronch wrote:
How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.


FFG X-wing and Armada have been terrible for that. Huge boxes with multiple layers of cardboard and plastic for a tiny ship, with enough air inside the box to keep an astronaut alive for a week.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

It makes people feel much better about how much they pay for that tiny ship though.

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





MaxT wrote:
Cronch wrote:
How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.


FFG X-wing and Armada have been terrible for that. Huge boxes with multiple layers of cardboard and plastic for a tiny ship, with enough air inside the box to keep an astronaut alive for a week.


and its got far worse in 2.0, not sure if its some bad idea by ffg/amg or some kind of diktat from the Mouse regarding branding


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It makes people feel much better about how much they pay for that tiny ship though.


they have jumped a fair bit its true but it does have all the cards and wotnot so theres no brb or codex cost to factor in

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 12:38:39


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.


The sculptors at GW are really more hybrid sculptors and engineers. They are responsible for not just sculpting the miniature but also parting it out for assembly and to some extent manufacturing - GW still employs moldmakers and engineers to complete the process, but a lot of it is now handled up-front by the sculptors themselves. I know at some point they were using zBrush in addition to a couple other software packages (most of the parting and engineering is done using another software package whos name escapes me at the moment, its something that isn't really used outside of the toymaking and product design industry), but I'm not sure if they are still using zBrush as the other applications can basically do everything that zBrush does + the CAM/moldmaking bit that zBrush isn't really suited for.

Anyway, point is that their skillset might not be entirely translatable to the game and entertainment industry depending on which application(s) they are using, but on the flipside they have an even more niche skillset.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.


The sculptors at GW are really more hybrid sculptors and engineers. They are responsible for not just sculpting the miniature but also parting it out for assembly and to some extent manufacturing - GW still employs moldmakers and engineers to complete the process, but a lot of it is now handled up-front by the sculptors themselves. I know at some point they were using zBrush in addition to a couple other software packages (most of the parting and engineering is done using another software package whos name escapes me at the moment, its something that isn't really used outside of the toymaking and product design industry), but I'm not sure if they are still using zBrush as the other applications can basically do everything that zBrush does + the CAM/moldmaking bit that zBrush isn't really suited for.

Anyway, point is that their skillset might not be entirely translatable to the game and entertainment industry depending on which application(s) they are using, but on the flipside they have an even more niche skillset.


For making the molds my guess/bet is on AutoCAD. However, regardless of which sculpting tool(digital that is) they are using those skills are often easily translatable between several fields. Even if the tools are different the methods are usually the same and it is only a question of a learning curve(like going to zBrush from almost anything else).

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- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
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 Las wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the hypocrisy. The thing is, though, every worker owes it to themselves to be savvy. The company is not your friend. It never will be. It will always sublimate your needs over the needs of the organization. Without question. Never take a company's dedication to culture at its word. Judge it on merit and action.

 Gert wrote:
I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Of course not all companies are equal in terms of how they treat workers. However, as a worker, you will always be better off if you play to and understand the truth about the relationship you are engaged in with your employer. If you don't like what you've got, literally your only recourse is to either demand more on pain of leaving the organization, or go somewhere else that will provide what you want.

Someday, we might have stronger collective bargaining protections in the west again, but until then this what we have.


Why is it on the individual and not on, say, the elected officials supposed to represent that individual.

Why does one person have to fight alone against the massed economic power of the executives and shareholders that go into a company?

Where are the unions?

 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


Advice to who?

 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.



More skilled is relatively meaningless for pay scales, as game development tells us.

Now I don't know how much sculptors are paid (I haven't actually met any GW sculptors), but it's probably not gonna be much different then Hewitt.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Blastaar wrote:
 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."



No. Low end jobs are jobs where you earn your keep and learn your trade. that is why they are called- ENTERY LEVEL.

To keep this in perspective, You are saying that it's the COMPANIES fault that this guy didn't put in the work to do the homework on the job. EVERY job out there has a starting point, and in his points, he is in one of those slots. He isn't Gav Thorp, he hasn't come up with a game, and had a feature in WD, and in effect, he's a background grunt in the office, plucking away on the computer, rules testing, and revamping/ revising.

THAT to me doesn't say "premium". That tells me mid tier/ lower level. You don't get a private parking space at that level, if anything, you might get free lunch/ drinks at the company picnic, but not on the level of Project lead or head designer.

You don't just show up a nobody at a company and get a premium slot.... unless that was what you were hired for, or grow into it by taking a next tier position, or impressing the heck out of your boss.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
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Halifax

Didn't he write/develop Adeptus Titanicus (2018)?

   
 
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