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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






At risk of skirting rule 1, dam there are a lot of people here making themselves unhappy by trying to die on the hill of their extremely unreasonable opinions.

Seriously... it is a hobby that involves painting. It doesn't have to, but often does. Many people do enjoy playing the game, without painted models even. None of that affects kit restrictions being unfun.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




EviscerationPlague wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

We do paint our models, we choose to chill over a game of 40k because it's (for us) fun, easy to play and isn't too mentally taxing while engaging our interests too.

It's really not a difficult concept that some people get together to do something they find mutually enjoyable, surely?

Well when your best defense for a game is "we like it" that's not a lot to honestly respect.


At what point was I defending anything other than how I choose to spend my free time? More importantly why am I having to justify my enjoying spending my free time playing 40k, to 40k players on a 40k forum?

Dear god, then people wonder why this place has the rep it does.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
At risk of skirting rule 1, dam there are a lot of people here making themselves unhappy by trying to die on the hill of their extremely unreasonable opinions.

Seriously... it is a hobby that involves painting. It doesn't have to, but often does. Many people do enjoy playing the game, without painted models even. None of that affects kit restrictions being unfun.


You're further from skirting rule 1 than some don't worry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 19:27:28


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




No idea what rep you are talking about. But in general any activity that requires friends or fun people to be fun, can be questionably fun. An activity which can do no matter what the other people are, that is fun, is really fun, because it doesn't build its fun aspect on stuff that comes from outside. If playing the same game of same w40k, becomes unfun when you play it at a store in another city or state, then there is a possibility that the game is not fun, and it is just the people that are fun. And then, there are much cheaper ways to spend time with friends, which require a lot less self invested time too.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




Drugs, for example.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Altruizine wrote:

Ok, so do you think all Necromunda players are errant, then? They could simply play 40K. More vehicles, more monsters, higher unit counts = more 40K spectacle.

I'd love to see an in-depth spectacularity breakdown, actually. What's more spectacular: a 1000 point 40K game between two armies that are extremely poorly painted and straight out of the box with no conversions, or a 5000 point 40K game between two armies that feature amazing conversions and kitbashes, but aren't painted? Can I buy a spectaculometer in the 'Gaming Accessories' section of the GW webstore, to make sure I'm always hitting the minimum recommended spectacle?

One could probably, genuinely do a reasonable job of quantifying the various qualities of "spectacle". But I sorta think it'd be a tremendous waste of time here.

But generally, few other games "parade" like 40k or AoS. Big, stylish armies all peackocked up on a good looking table. I've seen a few historical games that do it, but that's about it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah. I think the idea that 40k's appeal isn't in the look of the game isn't radical.

And there are plenty of reasons to play a game other than spectacle - I list three in each post. Necromunda is fairly narratively intense as well as having quite a skill ceiling I am told.

40k, though, isn't. It runs almost entirely on spectacle for why it is a fun game to put on the table. "It looks cool."

And if a necromunda game is next to a 40k game in the FLGS, guess which draws more non-wargame observers?

Well Chain of Command but that's beside the point
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







To be clear I think Necromunda can easily have a high level of spectacle - especially with terrain heavy boards.

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

We do paint our models, we choose to chill over a game of 40k because it's (for us) fun, easy to play and isn't too mentally taxing while engaging our interests too.

It's really not a difficult concept that some people get together to do something they find mutually enjoyable, surely?

Well when your best defense for a game is "we like it" that's not a lot to honestly respect.


At what point was I defending anything other than how I choose to spend my free time? More importantly why am I having to justify my enjoying spending my free time playing 40k, to 40k players on a 40k forum?

Dear god, then people wonder why this place has the rep it does.

The negative rep comes from the overly positive Paula Facebook comments on the official 40k page. I'm not particularly worried they think it's negative here LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nomeny wrote:
Drugs, for example.

That depends entirely on the drug, my friend

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 21:14:51


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 blood reaper wrote:
To be clear I think Necromunda can easily have a high level of spectacle - especially with terrain heavy boards.
Certainly can. A good board goes a long way. 40k and AoS hit a particular juction of large, showy armies though. The only thing in my experience which compares are big napolionic games. You get the epic scale plus all the colors of uniform. Bigger Epic40k games do it pretty well too, but once the models get too small there's a certain element that's traded for the grander overall scale.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 22:15:32


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Unit1126PLL wrote:

But like, why wargame at all? What are you looking for out of wargaming?

If it is a test of skill, then I am surprised you stuck with 40k after your first few games.
If it's the narrative, I suppose I could understand if you started in an earlier edition.
If it's for the spectacle, paint your models.



moving models on the table and going "pew pew boom boom slash slash" is fun.
i don't need painted models to be able to immerse myself in the battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.


my main complaint about kit restrictions isnt even that i can't minmax, its that its clunky as feth for my blightlords to shoot :

Bolters
Plasma
Melta
Autocannon

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 22:20:31


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
Drugs, for example.

That depends entirely on the drug, my friend


Ideally one of the plant based ones, so you can have horticulture as a side hobby.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

I must think that, mustn't I?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Nomeny wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

I must think that, mustn't I?
Well no, that's why it was a question.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Nomeny wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

I must think that, mustn't I?

Well if you think Blightlords look better with one of each Combi-Weapon instead of being nice and uniform, that's on you.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

I must think that, mustn't I?

Well if you think Blightlords look better with one of each Combi-Weapon instead of being nice and uniform, that's on you.
Some people honestly do and there is nothing wrong with that. Forcing the whole squad to take the same option would just be an inverted version of the problem.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Who said anything about being forced to take the same option? Right now they're being forced to take different weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 00:38:54


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Sounds Chaotic to me
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
“Oh this bit doesn’t look like my monoposed to gak new deathguard”
Huh, who could’ve guessed.
Individuality in wargear is very common for traitors btw.


Why do you have blight lords in the first place if you don't like their look?

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 blood reaper wrote:
To be clear I think Necromunda can easily have a high level of spectacle - especially with terrain heavy boards.


Exactly. Necromunda is far more "miniature dense" compared to 40k, even if tables are (slightly) smaller and miniatures on the table are between 10 and 20. It's just lots of terrain instead of lots of miniatures. I actually think it has higher level of spectacle on average than 40k.

 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Who said anything about being forced to take the same option? Right now they're being forced to take different weapons.

His sentiment was clearly one of all-the-same being the 'right' way, and faulting another for potentially liking the 'wrong' way. I'm just pointing out that the very concept of there being a right/wrong way of doing it is flawed. Doubly so for GW being able to give us both with no additional effort on their part.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Grimtuff wrote:
I honestly don't know why I bother sometimes. I present a solution that works, and I just get a "yeah... but" excuse. But guess what? You can do the same with melta parts. I've got 30 Blightlords, and several of them have combi meltas and not a single one is the same. Some are metal CSM Termie parts, some plastic CSM Termies, some are Storm Bolters with a barrel shaved off and a Sanguinary Guard inferno pistol part put in place, some are simply an entire meltagun with a bolter slapped on the side of it.
[...]
There's a myriad of solutions out there for easy conversions, but people just don't want to do it and shoot down every suggestion...


Sorry, but if you were actually trying to give advice, maybe shouldn't have hidden it in a bucket of vitriol.

According to this post you have no experience with the actual blight lords models and their combi-bolters. For more insight, their bolters have a lot of detail to them and have tiny slots to fit extremely small bits for either melta, plasma or flamer or to stick one of five extra bolters to them. These really look great in my opinion, as you can make 5 unique bolters for each special weapon and a ton of double-bolter combinations. I have to idea why GW couldn't find room for a full set of these bits (they are about 15mmx2mm), but probably the answer is the same as it always is: money.

The reason why I checked the bit price is because when you did so for orks, you usually could get whole sprues very cheap, with just a few weapon options or wheels missing. In case that was unclear, I didn't buy a single one - but many people clearly did.

I was given the same advice when building them back when I started my DG (possibly even by you) and I did try it - unlike you tried to imply with your post, I actually did ask around for plasma bits and had no issues getting them.
The result: Imperial plasma (more rectangular shaped) just looks like gak. Wrong shape, wrong visuals, too clean, and much too large, no matter whether you take plasma guns, plasma pistols, combi-plasma bits.

At that time DI was still available, so I bought an extra noxious blightbringers (2€) and cut up his plasma pistol which had the the round plasma tip I was looking for - still wrong size, plasma coils are too big, it just looks wonky.

In the end I decided that having better guns was neither worth 12-24€ nor as important to me as having my models look good and just used one of each combi-weapon (mostly because I liked how the flamer looks), gave the last one a blight launcher, converted a cohort terminator to hold a plague spewer. I actually do play them WYSIWYG at almost all times, and never really regretted it. My blight lords dodged GWs new design paradigm by pure coincidence.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 07:29:06


I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






 Insectum7 wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
To be clear I think Necromunda can easily have a high level of spectacle - especially with terrain heavy boards.
Certainly can. A good board goes a long way. 40k and AoS hit a particular juction of large, showy armies though. The only thing in my experience which compares are big napolionic games. You get the epic scale plus all the colors of uniform. Bigger Epic40k games do it pretty well too, but once the models get too small there's a certain element that's traded for the grander overall scale.


I find that Medievals and Ancients also work pretty well. Basically anything that has colour and fairly large forces without having overly small figures. So definitely any mass battle system using 28mm models, preferably in periods before camouflage became the norm. That tends to make things look much more subdued.

   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Most of the Hobby is people painting and modelling rather than people trying to eke a few extra percentage points out of a unit's efficiency.
You think that's the only reason why people like options and hate kit-based rule restrictions?

I must think that, mustn't I?
Well no, that's why it was a question.

That's just it, people like to customize their miniatures, and limiting the models to WYSIWYG puts an onus on these people. One that doesn't really exist except at the intersection of people customizing models and people playing tournaments. It's just another one of these things that reasonable people can quietly and politely work around at the point of contact (TOs and players during list submission) and another that people can argue about as yet another facet of the Hobby. Incidentally your further posts were spot-on.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






If it's based on people being reasonable that's going to fall through. A lot.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




Well yeah, so we get unit options matching what you can buy. It doesn't seem like a terrible compromise to me. I think a lot of trouble 5th and 6th could have been solved by it.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Nomeny wrote:
Well yeah, so we get unit options matching what you can buy. It doesn't seem like a terrible compromise to me. I think a lot of trouble 5th and 6th could have been solved by it.

What was going to be solved in 5th by this method?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Nomeny wrote:
Well yeah, so we get unit options matching what you can buy. It doesn't seem like a terrible compromise to me. I think a lot of trouble 5th and 6th could have been solved by it.

Because you're looking at it in a very odd way. I'm not sure what 'trouble' you think would've been solved (and I was a lot more active for 5th and 6th than 7th and 8th), but removing options from both rules AND models seems like a terrible solution to anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/22 01:07:41


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
Well yeah, so we get unit options matching what you can buy. It doesn't seem like a terrible compromise to me. I think a lot of trouble 5th and 6th could have been solved by it.

What was going to be solved in 5th by this method?


The over-exaggerated "problem" of units being able to spread wounds out throughout the squad due to how wound allocation worked in 5th. I dismiss it as only a handful of units could take full advantage of it, despite what the internet always seems to harp on with it being like some kind of plague on the edition that every army could fully exploit. Nob Bikers, Nobz, TWC, GK Paladins and Bloodcrushers were the only units that could truly take advantage of it due to having multiple wounds and the ability to all take different equipment. Deathwing Termies, Wolf Guard, GK Termies and a couple of other units could exploit it as well, but not to the extent of the others as they only had a single wound.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
 
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