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2024/08/16 10:02:19
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Most likely to generate enough orders in one go to have enough money to justify doing a massive production batch order to get things going again. Normally a firm would invest into that with profits to generate the order or take out a loan/take on an investor to invest into it. Warmachine isn't in that position right now, but they DO have a lot of the material from before they shut down P3 supplies. So they are part way there and a KS is a great way to get the money to get the product back on shelves; without having to pay out interest to investors/loans and without having to potentially wait years to generate revenue on their own. Esp when revenue generated through sales right now should be going into the core business of getting more models out and so forth.
So kickstarter has moved away from "indy company getting something off the ground" to more of a pre-ordering and risk transfer mechanism for companies? Again im probably asking a dumb question again.
Iv always been put off by established companies asking for my money up front for a product I might get in the future at some point. Iv held the view that its not worth buying something unless a company can get it to me in a store. But perhaps the whole world has moved on and im still sat in some intellectual cave.
2024/08/16 10:05:13
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
and given how long Privateer Press has been struggling there are probably a significant number of potential purchasers who have never come across P3 paint in the wild, and since paints on kickstarter have done well using it to attract attention to the relaunch is probably a smart move
(it also means lots of sales of sets so people will try colours from across the range, whereas if the release was just into stores they could well find that only a few popular colours sold and a whole bunch of the more obscure ones languished )
2024/08/16 10:45:14
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Most likely to generate enough orders in one go to have enough money to justify doing a massive production batch order to get things going again. Normally a firm would invest into that with profits to generate the order or take out a loan/take on an investor to invest into it. Warmachine isn't in that position right now, but they DO have a lot of the material from before they shut down P3 supplies. So they are part way there and a KS is a great way to get the money to get the product back on shelves; without having to pay out interest to investors/loans and without having to potentially wait years to generate revenue on their own. Esp when revenue generated through sales right now should be going into the core business of getting more models out and so forth.
So kickstarter has moved away from "indy company getting something off the ground" to more of a pre-ordering and risk transfer mechanism for companies? Again im probably asking a dumb question again.
Iv always been put off by established companies asking for my money up front for a product I might get in the future at some point. Iv held the view that its not worth buying something unless a company can get it to me in a store. But perhaps the whole world has moved on and im still sat in some intellectual cave.
Yes - KS started with a single concept but its grown way beyond that now and is used by a variety of firms all for different purposes. Heck KS even supports after-funding period backing now (late pledges) which is something that 's been done for years, but until very recently KS didn't really have much (if any) post campaign tools and everyone used 3rd parties for that. Which was basically KS leaving a LOT of money on the table for other firms to sweep in and take in managing the after-campaign.
But yeah KS is more than it was at its conception
As for your approach its not a bad one. Some KS have everything ready to go and its just raising cash with a big discount on price; some are raising funds to generate orders big enough to make the whole enterprise work; some are doing it to show investors that there's money to be made; some are using it for marketing hype; some are small firms; some are big firms etc... Even big firms still have to pay for things and KS might be a way that pet projects get into the world where otherwise their profits might be too low to justify the firm investing into them over other choices.
In the end some KS come with more risk than others and you have to weigh up if the money you spend is worth the risk of not getting anything. You can always wait for products to come to market and something like P3 paints would be a "safe" one as it should be a medium to long term release. Some things, eg boardgames, might be "one and done" where any supply after the campaign is just from that campaign order and there won't be a general restock. So once its gone its gone.
Discounts on some KS can also be extreme and super tempting over retail prices - though this has reduced over the years. Partly because companies find that insane KS discounts result in retail outlets not wanting to buy stock (because the market got flooded with cheap); or they find that providing stuff almost "at cost" ends up biting them hard when actual real world production and release ends up taking longer and costing more than estimated (VERY COMMON); and a bunch of other things too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: and given how long Privateer Press has been struggling there are probably a significant number of potential purchasers who have never come across P3 paint in the wild, and since paints on kickstarter have done well using it to attract attention to the relaunch is probably a smart move
(it also means lots of sales of sets so people will try colours from across the range, whereas if the release was just into stores they could well find that only a few popular colours sold and a whole bunch of the more obscure ones languished )
Also I have to say that PP did do really well with all their Warcaster Kickstarters. Even during the Pandemic they delivered pretty much on schedule. It's a shame that the game never took off as it did some really cool ideas and I hope it gets back on market. The idea of a side-board in a wargame and infinite respawns of units is something that introduces a whole bunch of tactics that other wargames just lock out by design. I think it also is a mechanic that goes a long way to helping situational/niche models actually get into more competitive game lists and systems because now you can just not bring the niche thing from your sideboard into the battlefield unless you need it. So in a tournament you can take it and use it when needed; as opposed to regular wargames where you only take the most generic efficient choices for the army because that niche thing that works against 1 other army race isn't worth it when it might only be one or two of your competing matches where it can do anything
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/16 10:49:13
Yeah - KS has long been a cheap (sometimes) pre-order that's often low-risk for the companies. Occasionally crowdfunding still gets used by actual indie creators too, though in my experience that's less the case for minis games that are planned to go to retail (though some still do) but plenty of indie RPGs and stuff get there. And I don't really know about anything outside tabletop there - I've backed the odd artsy thing - cartoons or illustration collections - that seems fairly indie as well, but mostly I stick to tabletop.
It really is a shame Warcaster isn't there yet, though I have no reason to think SFG ISN'T at least considering it in good faith once Warmachine is back on good footing, though I recognize that it's both perhaps too charitable to SFG as well as that, even with the best of faith, it might not happen. It is a good core engine though - and you can see lots of its design choices come through in WMIV. But I have some stuff and between a friend and I we'll play when the mood strikes us. It could really use a balance pass though.
Decoupling turn lengths from scoring rounds a little was also an interesting move and I've seen a few other games do something similar; it makes the players have to mix up their timing assumptions and I found that to be an interesting dynamic.
2024/08/16 15:47:20
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
I think Warcaster has hope; it just launched at a really bad time and then got hit with the rise in metal prices and PP clearly not having Warmachine 4.0 take off as strong as they hoped (plus likely a bunch of other things).
It's right now sitting in the same spot as Firestorm Armada - decent chance of returning, but needs the parent firms core game to improve on sales first to get to a point where they can support a second game and system fully.
A LOT will ride on if Warmachine can recover well.
Also whatever is happening with Monster apoc because what should have been a huge success for PP is now a mess not of hteir own making
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Because they are being reformulated and are essentially a brand new line with an old name. If there are old colors you like, you might want to stockpile them, if you can find them.
I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
The second wave of metallics were great, the originals were awful. I, for one, remember the pots of Rhulic Gold that doubled as IEDs.
2024/08/17 03:11:02
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
Obviously not all kickstarters are for everyone, but depending on the price I'll probably be in on this one. I moved a while ago and a lot of my paints ended up drying up in storage, so the chance to get a fresh range at a good deal is appealing.
P3 metals have been good for me too, their lighter colors had pretty good coverage compared to other paints out at that time.
2024/08/17 07:09:52
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
Also whatever is happening with Monster apoc because what should have been a huge success for PP is now a mess not of hteir own making
If games could be cursed, MonPoc would certainly be close to the top of the list of likely suspects.
Yeah the sad part is it seems to sell really well whenever PP gets it going; but then it hits huge roadblocks.
First whatever the film thing/connection was the first time around when it came out and then just got killed from sale for years.
Then this new Kickstarter that has likely shot it dead again instead of making it PP's likely biggest seller.
I'll just add that a company that seems "established" in the hobby niche, is still a small company, and thus a few failed projects away from bankruptcy. Whether or not your money is involved is nonetheless up to you for whatever reason.
For paints, I have enough paints. I'd wait until the reviews are out, even if it means retail. Plenty more risk with paints than miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/17 08:48:59
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
The second wave of metallics were great, the originals were awful. I, for one, remember the pots of Rhulic Gold that doubled as IEDs.
I love Blighted Gold.
Dirty enough to not be shiny, but bright enough to not be a Bronze.
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
2024/08/18 03:20:22
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
P3 reviews. However, I heard the P3 paints will be reformulated? No hurry to buy paints and I only paint to advanced tabletop, so can wait for retail and reviews. Interested in easy to use flesh paints and mixing medium.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2024/09/06 21:24:38
Subject: Re:Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
If you get the new P3 paints during the Kickstarter, you can choose to have them in pots or dropper bottles.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2024/09/07 17:39:43
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks. And don’t even get started on how crooked Kickstarter has become…
2024/09/07 19:52:42
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2024/09/07 20:08:15
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
2024/09/08 11:38:09
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
Those two will shill anything sent to them for free.
I'd be more interested if someone of solid reputation tested them.
Something is happening on the 24th, we sent you a poster.
2024/09/10 17:50:07
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
I love the P3 line. In particular it has, IMO the best highlight colors out there and work exceptionally well out of an airbrush sprayed over a Contrast basecoat. There's a couple colors I'll pick up solo when I run out and give a try, but its not something I'll have a solid opinion on until I try it myself.
2024/09/10 20:22:07
Subject: Steam Forge Games buys Iron Kingdoms / Privateer Press IP and games
Someone was selling the whole line, mostly unopened and with lots of duplicates, on Gumtree here a few years back so I bought it then and won't be backing the KS. I still hope it's succesful. Great paint.
The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
4000+
