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What are peoples thoughts on dealing with Knights now that they're common place?

Here's some maths vs T8 3+/5++ (in shooting),

Rocket Bikes + Captain:
- Shooting does ~5.5W
- On the Charge does ~15W

Axe Wardens + Captain:
- Shooting does ~2.5W
- On the Charge does (with -1AP strat) ~14W

Spear Guards + Captain:
- Shooting does ~2.5W
- On the Charge does (with +1 to wound strat) ~11.5W

Sword Guards + Captain:
- Shooting does ~0.5W
- On the Charge does ~7.5W

Land Raider + re-rolls:
- Shooting does ~7W

Telemon (w/ Culverins) + re-rolls
- Shooting does ~10W

Telemon (w/ double fists) + re-rolls
- Shooting does ~5W
- On the Charge does ~9.5W


As always, Bikes seem to be the answer but we'd need to get a couple of bike units into combat with a Captain to bring down a single knight. Facing a full army of knights could be a tad tricky.

For Custodes bikes would probably be the best way, just add as many bolter bikes as possible and a Telemon + CP Battery etc. I think you can only bring 1 Telemon though.
I also think that Knights will be a tough match-up for Custodes so playing the mission will be key.

From earlier in the thread:

 greyknight12 wrote:
For the FW options:
Caladius does 4 wounds from accelerator cannon+1.1 from bolt cannon (against a 5++)
Telemon does 2.8 from the Las storm, 3.3 from the accelerator culverin, 0.7 from bolt launcher,1.6 per plasma ejector and 8.1 damage in melee
Achillus does 1.7 from dreadspear+0.56 from the lastrum, 8.3 in melee assuming 4.5 damage avg (5.6 minimum, maybe a mortal wound)

For reference, a hurricane bolter does 0.56 wounds at rapid-fire, an axe or spear does 0.28.

Won a local 1250 tournament today, mix of chapter approved and BRB eternal war missions. My first actual tournament with the golden boys, and they did not disapoint.
My list: Outrider detachment
2x Bike captains, hurricane bolters, warlord had misericordia and SC, always gave them both 3++
1x Vexilla w/Magnifica, misericordia
3x3Vertus Praetors, hurricane bolters

Game 1: Up against a mech guard list: Tank commander (plasma sponsons), Executioner, company commander, a patrol of scions with plasma, taurox, and a bunch of guardsmen in chimeras. Front-line assault deployment, went first and pushed up the field and kept everyone within vexilla range (advanced him 4"). Took his shooting to the face and missed a bunch of saves, lost a bike squad+1 more from another squad. My next turn I charged in and wiped his tanks, scions, and a couple disembarked guard squads. Between overwatch and the vexilla the plasma russ was down half its hull points by the time I charged it. From there it was cleanup, I lost another bike from focused shooting but he conceded.

Game 2: 120 Ork boyz+a bit of artillery, 3 weirdboyz a painboy and bike nob. Dawn of War deployment, First turn again, wiped a choppa squad with hurricanes (outside of rapid-fire). I should have chosen second, but it worked out. He pushed 2 squads of shootas at me and Da Jump'd another one behind. No shooting to speak of, the vexilla is brutal on Orks. He failed one charge, 2 squads of shootas and the nob made it to combat and put down 1 squad and a wound on a different one. I backed the survivors out on my next turn and unloaded hurricanes into them. Charged with the unengaged bikes and a shield captain killed the nob with the vexilla's help. I ended the weirdboyz with my warlord next turn and he conceded with only his artillery remaining.

Game 3: 3 DE flyers, a wraithlord HQ, and 5 hornets. Hammer and Anvil deployment. I got first again, and charged headlong down the field (still within vexilla range). The vexilla saved me, and the eldar player rolled poorly. I lost 2 bikes from one squad and took 3 wounds on one in another squad. I chose to deepstrike the warlord, and threw everything at the hornets (the flyers had moved to my starting table edge) and killed all of them. He charged a squad with his wraithlord and whiffed, my next turn saw everyone charge the warlord and killed him. He moved his flyers back for one last salvo to try and pick off some of the single bikes, but I made all my saves or he missed. He conceded.


Small points work well for us, we don't lose a lot of effectiveness and don't feel bloated. The vexilla magnifica is a lifesaver and absolutely brutal against orks and stuff with "gets hot".

Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

Vexila Magnifica only affects Custodes units, not Imperium units.

So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

 Filq wrote:
Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

Depends what you wanna do with your accompanying space marines,if you wanty a gunline, proably raven guard is best, iron hands might give you some durability... Imperial Fists might be an intreasting choice because they can handle any infantry that digs in in ruins.

Audustum wrote:
So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

Doesn’t seem good to me where’s your cp farm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenguard are not very good. Your best choice is Deathwatch. They are very competitive.

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:
So I'm thinking of going to a 1,500 point tournament using NOVA rules. What do you guys think of a list that's basically:

Custodes Outrider: 1 HQ, 3 minimum Jetbike squads.

Imperial Knight: Crusader with Stormspear.

It'd only have 4 CP, but it seems pretty heavy and strong for the point range. I'd probably use 1 CP to give the IK the relic that makes him ObSec and count as 10 models when contesting other ObSec units.

Doesn’t seem good to me where’s your cp farm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenguard are not very good. Your best choice is Deathwatch. They are very competitive.

CP IS the major drawback of it. That said, if you take a CP farm you have to either not take an Outrider of all Bikes or not take a Knight. Forgeworld beta rules aren't allowed so I can't slap in a Telemon/Caladius for anti-tank which also limits my long range heavy fire.

If I can slot it sufficient ranged anti-tank to deal with pairs of Leviathans, Tesseract Vaults, Tau in general and Mortarion, all of which I expect to see, then I'm all for adding it. But I'm stumped on ways to add that kind of long range firepower while having the room for a CP farm and the optimal Jetbike detachment.

Leviathan is a relic unit.

 Primark G wrote:
Leviathan is a relic unit.

And that doesn't preclude you from having two? You just have to have enough non-relic units in the slot to support it.

Also, the Chaos version of a Leviathan does not have the Relic rule.

Two at 1500 is auto lose.

 Primark G wrote:
Two at 1500 is auto lose.

My quick math says a Space Marine Battalion with two Relic Leviathans and 2 Devastator units (assuming you give them 8 lascannons, 1 missile launcher and 1 heavy Bolter) is about 1,321. So you still even have flex points. I wouldn't call it auto-lose at all
That said, whatever we think of it, it is still something I have fair odds of facing and need to be ready for.

Don't forget the Chaos version has no Relic rule either. They can just slap two in with no tax.

It’s not a lot of bodies - might be win big/lose big.

Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

Scenario, 2nd turn
at the end of movement phase:
- Use FGLTC to teleport Vexilus Praetor 9" from the enemy
- Use FGLTC to teleport squad (10 guards )...
- ... use VTH to place them in 6" from Preator, but 3" from enemy.
- Shoot the hell out of them with 20 shoots on rapid fire from guardian spear
- Roll at least 1+2 to charge them.

Now, join it with Black Templars reroll to charge, deepstriking from the other side/another unit and you can pretty much dig in the enemy lines without worry about being shoot down to early.

 Filq wrote:
Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

Scenario, 2nd turn
at the end of movement phase:
- Use FGLTC to teleport Vexilus Praetor 9" from the enemy
- Use FGLTC to teleport squad (10 guards )...
- ... use VTH to place them in 6" from Preator, but 3" from enemy.
- Shoot the hell out of them with 20 shoots on rapid fire from guardian spear
- Roll at least 1+2 to charge them.

Now, join it with Black Templars reroll to charge, deepstriking from the other side/another unit and you can pretty much dig in the enemy lines without worry about being shoot down to early.

Pretty sure the Vexilla has to be on the field at the start of the turn to use the Teleport Homer Stratagem. Don't have the book with me but I think thats the wording. So you'd have to wait an extra turn before bringing your big squad in and hope your banner guy doesn't die.

 Filq wrote:
Guys, can you join FROM GOLDEN LIGHT THEY COME and VEXILLA TELEPORT HOMER for instant 92% charge success deep strike?

The VTH strat explicitly forbids this, so no.

Yeah and theres no reason to use FGLTC for that combo anyway.

Take an allarus Vexilla with magnifica and drop him in the backfield turn 2. Works great if you have a flyer in your army to park by him and make him unshootable. Then turn 3 your termy squad comes in to counter punch whatever is moving towards him and to lock down the backfield.

If your running a squad of terminators, this guy is a must.

if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

X078 wrote:
if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

Which works once, assuming your enemy doesn't read the relic and put two and two together.
And every time after he will simply retreat from combat with your selected character.

If you want to run Allarus just accept your going to have to gamble on a 9" charge from deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Filq wrote:
Hello Guys,

Briefing:
I am trying to join my Custodes with SM <chapter> forces. Yet, I haven't decided what chapter to joined them with.

Background:
I had few games with my pure Custodes and I found bikes to be too brutal and expensive. It take out all fun from playing tactical when you have 10 models on the table, and wiping multiple enemy units without hassle is also not that fair to the enemy. Sure, he learned now to bring as many anti-tank guns as possible and just shoot me down from multiple angles.

So now both armies are one dimensional, to perform best against each other. Nothing fresh, nothing new. That's why I decided to mix them with SM <chapter> and give them some more dimensions to play in.

Problem to solve:
Which SM chapter would work well with Guards?

Swarm of Crusaders with chain swords/combat knifes shielding them and joining in the CC? Re-roll charge sounds great.

Or maybe more shooty units? But again, they would be rather useless in CC when Guards reach the enemy. Ultras are great, as they can shoot when falling back. But I would have to pull back Guards as well to have any advantage of it.

Raven Guards with vexhila would give -2 to hit for enemy, great for long range support. Put 10 devastators, in two units and create a portable bunker from them. Place them behind cover and they will be indestructible.

Iron Hands with extra feel no pain save for being pure meat shield?

You can go Blood Angels for more all in combat.
Ravenguard can make a more gunline approach (or also in their face thanks to SftS. Aggressors appearing infront of your lines). Are you shooting them or the bikes they will destroy you the turn after?
Deathwatch if you want to focus on Primaris marines.

Space Wolves might be nice when their codex finally comes. Could be worth waiting for that.

What you and your friend are running into is an inherent problem of Custodes. Its a very one dimensional army. Which is normal considering the amount of units you have access to.

X078 wrote:
if you are going all in on the Allarus bomb you use the Allarus Vexila with the Praetorian Plate relic. This let's him start on the board and "Teleport" to a tagged character in CC i.e. a Shield-Captain on Bike.
Activate Praetorian Plate, transport Vexilla then use the Vexila Teleport Homer to drop the Allarus Bomb in CC. Then for added fun Unleash the lions.

There's a lot of ifs.

Praetorian plate is activated in the opponents charge phase. If they're paying attention, they can fall back so the plate isn't activated.

If your captain kills everything when he charges, again no luck.

If they kill your captain Praetorian plate is worthless, because you choose the only character it can teleport to before the battle starts.

If they swarm your captain such that there is no space within 3" of the Vexilla to teleport to, you can't do it.

If after you Praetorian plate teleport, they kill your vexilla, you're again out of luck. The Vexilla has to be in combat.

And finally, it's 3 CP and 1 relic for a one trick pony that still only gets your terminators in on round 2 at the very earliest, but more likely round 3. If it's not countered.

New to Custodes so forgive me if this question has been answered before.

I play Guard and am allying in some Golden boys. I always take a Guard Warlord - but am afraid now that the Knights have a Shieldbreaker missile and a Stratagem that can kill my little guy outright.
The Custodes’ “Shoulder the Mantle” stratagem allows me to pick a Shield-Captain from my army and make him the new Warlord “when your Warlord is slain”. The wording seems to imply the slain Warlord doesn’t necessarily have to come from the Custodes faction. I didn’t see any clarification in the FAQ either.
Am I correct in this?

Also, if my Custodes Warlord has the Superior Creation trait and takes a mortal Wound, can he roll for his 6+ Aegis then follow up with the Superior Creation (5+ FNP) if he fails the Aegis save?

Shoulder the Mantle indeed does not require your (dead) warlord to be Custodes.

And as per the Rulebook faq, abilities that let you ignore wounds do not stack.
So its either Superior Creation or Aegis but not both (obv Superior Creation is better)

Ok, thanks for the quick reply!!

Question 1. Am I the alone one to feel that the Victor of the blood games stratagem is not mandatory at all? 2cp out of ~8 is a lot. If he dies and my warlord, I'll use Shoulder the Mantle anyway.
Question 2. In any case, can I use this stratagem on more than one character if i want? Has anyone done it?
Question 3. Has anyone tried the warlord trait that let all units within 12'' perform heroic intervention? Since my bikes and captain will ride and stick together, it may be useful often.

Stooping dive is tactically fun.. and brutal.

1. I rarely use it and feel it’s unnecessary.

There are some matchups where I expect my captain to do heavy lifting and be threatened so the re-rolls are nice.
Otherwise its probably to expensive. Remember your already re-rolling all your attacks because of his aura and to wounds when charging.
Its mainly about if you expect you will want to re-roll more then 2 saves with him during the battle

2)Its during deployment so the stratagem limit does not apply.

If you are using a guard battalion or brigade it is definitely worth it. I am switching over to two battalions and a vanguard so I will probably use it again.

What are peoples opinion on adding a Knight Castellan to a Custodes army (mostly bikes, minimal guard battalion) to provide long range firepower and a fire magnet to draw shots away from the bikes.