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Formosa wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.

And that is bad...how?

Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.

Not with that attitude its not i agree, now this attitude is fine

Want to include a stormraven in your RAVENwing army, well you can now

Want to include Cultists alongside your Chaos marines.... go ahead and take a few

its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

Note: YOU refers to the gaming community as a whole not any one person, you know who you are lol

Rules should be designed with the idea in mind that players will, by their very nature, try to find ways to break/loophole them. That goes for any system, be it games, laws, etc. It is the responsibility of the designers to do their utmost to ensure that it is not abuseable. Putting that all on the players is like saying "hey, I'm going to leave $2,000 cash here on the table and not come back to this room ever again, nothing bad will ever happen to you if you take it and I have no way of knowing if you take it, but please don't take it", and then expecting the $2000 to still be there

I see the point you are trying to make and i dont disagree with the analogy, but your saying as a comunity we have no responsibility for own actions and to hell with the reprcusions... if the comminity (in your area) says no you cant do something a certain way (like even useing allies for example) then you have to abide by it or move clubs, a big part of this game is deciding as a comminity what is correct (rules queries for example) and what is not (people being labeled TFG for playing a certain way) and if allies turns out to be one of these things that need to be house ruled or judged upon at a tourny, then we as a comminity will do so.

It has happened before and will do so again no doubt.

Which brings us to the point: following such logic, why not just play a better game?

Therion wrote:

In the reddit thread he confirmed that the only restriction on 2 FoC is simply the doubled min (2 HQ, 4 Troops)

Here's a 2000 pts 6th edition army single codex no allies because it's a fluffy totally non power gamery army that likes their airplanes but doesn't like your airplanes:

-CCS + Astropath + 4 flamers
-CCS + Officer of the Fleet + 4 flamers
-Veterans + 3 meltaguns
-Veterans + 3 meltaguns
-Veterans + 3 meltaguns
-Veterans + 3 meltaguns
-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-Hydra
-Hydra
-Hydra
-Hydra
-Manticore
-Manticore

Wouldn't the Stormlord and a Chrono-tek destroy this list?

Formosa wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.

And that is bad...how?

Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.

Not with that attitude its not i agree, now this attitude is fine

Want to include a stormraven in your RAVENwing army, well you can now

Want to include Cultists alongside your Chaos marines.... go ahead and take a few

its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

Note: YOU refers to the gaming community as a whole not any one person, you know who you are lol

Rules should be designed with the idea in mind that players will, by their very nature, try to find ways to break/loophole them. That goes for any system, be it games, laws, etc. It is the responsibility of the designers to do their utmost to ensure that it is not abuseable. Putting that all on the players is like saying "hey, I'm going to leave $2,000 cash here on the table and not come back to this room ever again, nothing bad will ever happen to you if you take it and I have no way of knowing if you take it, but please don't take it", and then expecting the $2000 to still be there

I see the point you are trying to make and i dont disagree with the analogy, but your saying as a comunity we have no responsibility for own actions and to hell with the reprcusions... if the comminity (in your area) says no you cant do something a certain way (like even useing allies for example) then you have to abide by it or move clubs, a big part of this game is deciding as a comminity what is correct (rules queries for example) and what is not (people being labeled TFG for playing a certain way) and if allies turns out to be one of these things that need to be house ruled or judged upon at a tourny, then we as a comminity will do so.

It has happened before and will do so again no doubt.

Why should we as gamers (and not game designers) have to fix their own game for them? It they come out with something that's so completely nonsensical, stupid, and ultimately game breaking, why is it our responsibility.

That's like saying, it's okay that Grey Knights are overpowered, we'll just dock them 150 points and it's all good. All this does is create arguments and disputes between players and between players and TO's that we shouldn't have to have. If GW could actually write decent rules without intentionally nerfing/buffing units based on what they can sell, we wouldn't have to do this.

"It's okay if the rules suck guys, we can just fix them ourselves!"

Glad I paid $75 + $35 for a codex that I've gotta spend time figuring out how to make it playable, and then everytime I play against a new guy we have to have a debate on how he/she plays the game and come to an agreement on some really dumb rules.

Just saying, if you show up with an Imperial Guard army with a bunch of Dark Eldar models as well, I'm going to tell you I'm not interested in playing. And that's if I can't get a decent amount of $$ for my current GW stuff.

Noir wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Again, it's not like people are actually going to play with doubled FOCs except in explicitly crazy events like the Adepticon Gladiator. They're not balanced and won't be seen in typical events. In fact, this might be the straw that breaks the back of the 2,000 points standard in the US, with events switching to 1750 or 1850 instead to avoid confusion.

If that doesn't happen, I predict we'll see a lot of "1,999" point events, perhaps with leniency allowed for armies that are one point over.

Becouse it was balanced before? GW isn't about balanced it about playing with your toy soldiers with a structured systems, so we know who won. 6th looks to be fun, unlike 5th were I felt like going to sleep. Still will not be buying models from GW, have more then I need now and other companys sell damn nice models and a better price point. But, I will be joining the next campaign my LFGS runs if 6th dosen't give my that sleeping feeling.

im with you on this, 5th felt like "going through the motions" it didnt have any.... i dont know... razzle dazle i suppose, fantasy has that in droves, i played a game last week at 3k and by the end we each had like 6-7 models left... magic flying everywhere, units getting chopped up in combat, its was a constant battle to try and get the edge... 40k 5th was like... "oh you brought GK/SW puri/psyfle/longfang spame eh... " paint by numbers gaming=bordom

I don't think you have that right.

It's very right. Which part do you think is incorrect? Don't worry I've been posting like crazy anyway so I'll explain:

Zooming is the movement of flyers. It means they have to move over 18", can turn only once, are hit only with 6's unless the shooter has skyfire, can't be assaulted, and can fire four weapons with normal BS, crash and burn if they get destroyed in the air, kill most or all of their passengers if they die, etc. Unless you're zooming, you're hovering, and considered not a flyer.

Evading is 'going to ground' for flyers. If something shoots at your flyer, if you wish, you can decide to evade. This means you'll get a cover save against that shooting but in the following turn you can only snap fire.

So, flyers use their normal BS for shooting, unless you evaded against some firepower in the previous turn.

I hope that clarified your misunderstandings.

Wouldn't the Stormlord and a Chrono-tek destroy this list?

I play Necrons myself and I plan on using Imotekh and 7-8 flyers. I'm not sure it would destroy that but it would be an incredible aerial battle indeed

StoneRaizer wrote:I think there's too much "omg, the sky is falling!" in this thread. Until everyone gets to read the book with our own eyes instead of freaking out over a guy's blog post, can we chill out? Just because someone says something on the Internet doesn't mean it's true. I highly doubt GW would put out a radically unbalanced rule set with their ulterior motive being to sell models. If 6E stinks, rather than gamers buying more models they'll end up buying less.

1) He's reading the rulebook and answering questions, do you have any idea how much work it would be to just make a bunch of gak up? What would be the point?

2) The GW website has the allies matrix right on it, we can clearly see from the game designers themselves how this works. Yes, you can field Dark Eldar and Eldar in the same army against anybody you want, every single game you play, and the rules totally support this. It's utterly daft.

So if someone's playing the army they personally enjoy, and it's utterly broken, it's their fault for playing the army they enjoy, not that of the ruleset that allows such a broken army to exist?

Formosa wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.

And that is bad...how?

Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.

Not with that attitude its not i agree, now this attitude is fine

Want to include a stormraven in your RAVENwing army, well you can now

Want to include Cultists alongside your Chaos marines.... go ahead and take a few

its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

Note: YOU refers to the gaming community as a whole not any one person, you know who you are lol

Rules should be designed with the idea in mind that players will, by their very nature, try to find ways to break/loophole them. That goes for any system, be it games, laws, etc. It is the responsibility of the designers to do their utmost to ensure that it is not abuseable. Putting that all on the players is like saying "hey, I'm going to leave $2,000 cash here on the table and not come back to this room ever again, nothing bad will ever happen to you if you take it and I have no way of knowing if you take it, but please don't take it", and then expecting the $2000 to still be there

I see the point you are trying to make and i dont disagree with the analogy, but your saying as a comunity we have no responsibility for own actions and to hell with the reprcusions... if the comminity (in your area) says no you cant do something a certain way (like even useing allies for example) then you have to abide by it or move clubs, a big part of this game is deciding as a comminity what is correct (rules queries for example) and what is not (people being labeled TFG for playing a certain way) and if allies turns out to be one of these things that need to be house ruled or judged upon at a tourny, then we as a comminity will do so.

It has happened before and will do so again no doubt.

There should be some degree of responsibility, I don't disagree, but really it doesn't look like GW has really done any effort to balance this here, they've done nothing but make some rather nebulous choices on who can ally with who primarily based on (weird) fluff interpretations. They've put very few restrictions or guidelines on it. They've made it very easy for the gits to be gits. People will be gits regardless and yeah the community has to do some self policing, but when you make it easy to do it, it will all too often be outside the communities will do anything about it.

Fetterkey wrote:Again, it's not like people are actually going to play with doubled FOCs except in explicitly crazy events like the Adepticon Gladiator. They're not balanced and won't be seen in typical events. In fact, this might be the straw that breaks the back of the 2,000 points standard in the US, with events switching to 1750 or 1850 instead to avoid confusion.

If that doesn't happen, I predict we'll see a lot of "1,999" point events, perhaps with leniency allowed for armies that are one point over.

Already been said... a few times.

Do you still get +1A for charges in 6th ed? In that case Rage gives a single extra attack, yay.

As for the rest, things are looking bleak for Tyranids. The crippling stuff is still there: Initiative 1 when charging through terrain coupled with no offensive grenades and crap armour saves means our small critters die in droves when finally arriving in combat, Instakill is still around so our mid-sized creatures are still pointless thanks to S8+ spam that looks to stay omni-present in 6th ed too, large MC's like Tervigons and Trygons still can't grab cover saves so they die in seconds.
On top of the old crap, new nerfs are introduced - cover saves down to 5+, removing casualties from the front, losing 2D6 MC pen, Fleet is gone (shorter average charge lengths for Genestealers and Trygons, not sure on Raveners (Beasts) potential move+ charge lenght but instakill means I'm glad I never painted them), multi-assault nerfed (losing bonus attacks), more situations of enemy fire on us (Snap Fire, Overwatch) and the laughable 'bonus' of rage is depending on a random failed IB test.
Did I forget any nerf? Yeah, as a final nail in the coffin I think GW nerfed Boneswords into Oblivion as well - AP3. Yeah, that's the spirit, let us not have anything at all to deal with 2+ armour GW! Please kick us some more because we were so OP in 5th! Let us keep the -1 to roll on the damage table for Venom Cannons and please wait until freakin' NOVEMBER before getting out an official model for the Harpy!

Nids are FUBARed. Is there a reason to deploy them in 6th at all?

Griever wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.

And that is bad...how?

Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.

Not with that attitude its not i agree, now this attitude is fine

Want to include a stormraven in your RAVENwing army, well you can now

Want to include Cultists alongside your Chaos marines.... go ahead and take a few

its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

Note: YOU refers to the gaming community as a whole not any one person, you know who you are lol

Rules should be designed with the idea in mind that players will, by their very nature, try to find ways to break/loophole them. That goes for any system, be it games, laws, etc. It is the responsibility of the designers to do their utmost to ensure that it is not abuseable. Putting that all on the players is like saying "hey, I'm going to leave $2,000 cash here on the table and not come back to this room ever again, nothing bad will ever happen to you if you take it and I have no way of knowing if you take it, but please don't take it", and then expecting the $2000 to still be there

I see the point you are trying to make and i dont disagree with the analogy, but your saying as a comunity we have no responsibility for own actions and to hell with the reprcusions... if the comminity (in your area) says no you cant do something a certain way (like even useing allies for example) then you have to abide by it or move clubs, a big part of this game is deciding as a comminity what is correct (rules queries for example) and what is not (people being labeled TFG for playing a certain way) and if allies turns out to be one of these things that need to be house ruled or judged upon at a tourny, then we as a comminity will do so.

It has happened before and will do so again no doubt.

Why should we as gamers (and not game designers) have to fix their own game for them? It they come out with something that's so completely nonsensical, stupid, and ultimately game breaking, why is it our responsibility.

That's like saying, it's okay that Grey Knights are overpowered, we'll just dock them 150 points and it's all good. All this does is create arguments and disputes between players and between players and TO's that we shouldn't have to have. If GW could actually write decent rules without intentionally nerfing/buffing units based on what they can sell, we wouldn't have to do this.

"It's okay if the rules suck guys, we can just fix them ourselves!"

Glad I paid $75 + $35 for a codex that I've gotta spend time figuring out how to make it playable, and then everytime I play against a new guy we have to have a debate on how he/she plays the game and come to an agreement on some really dumb rules.

Just saying, if you show up with an Imperial Guard army with a bunch of Dark Eldar models as well, I'm going to tell you I'm not interested in playing. And that's if I can't get a decent amount of $$ for my current GW stuff.

Ah and there you have it "if someone turns up with imperial guard and dark eldar etc." you DONT hve to play them, its YOUR hobby, sit down with your mates/club and talk it out and come to an agreement

As to the "why should we fix our own game", simply because nothing is perfect, we (community) have beendoing this since 40k began, why stop now... i mean look at the Inat FAQ, this exiss mainly because GW are so half arsed, if they did a proper job in the first place then the INATFAQ wouldnt exist at all, also look at the massive amount of Rules lawering that goes on in 5th already...
all im trying to say is, if you dont like the way the game is going do something about it and try to organise something with your local meta groups, being lazy or apathetic about something never helps.

But your point is totally valid and i understand, i just dont dislike what i have seen to the extent you do

Fishboy wrote:

Lockark wrote:I've been trying to follow this thread for awhile now, but the last few days it has been going so fast I've been struggling to keep up.

Is it yet known if their has been any changes to how Assaulting Vheclies works?

But realy what I want to know is.... If I assault a transport, do I get to consolidate into the unit inside like in the Pancake Edition?

I dont recall him giving specifics on this however he did state you still hit rear armor in assult.

On a side note stop crying about how things affect your army. Remember that these rules affect everyones army so the entire meta changes. People need to stop posting negative crap just to hear themselves type...

Oh that's to bad, thanks for the heads up thow .I hope someone in the reddit thread gets a chance to ask him that.

Therion wrote:
Evading is 'going to ground' for flyers. If something shoots at your flyer, if you wish, you can decide to evade. This means you'll get a cover save against that shooting but in the following turn you can only snap fire.

So, flyers use their normal BS for shooting, unless you evaded against some firepower in the previous turn.

I hope that clarified your misunderstandings.

Actually, I've seen that 'evade' is only something you can do when being shot at by other flyers. Since they hit on normal BS, it's a saving throw. Since most fire from the ground hits on 6's, there's no 'evading' from that. Also, since vendettas will have to move 18-36 in a straight line with no more than 90 degrees of a turn, they won't maintain flyer status too long but rather go into hover mode.

Let us keep the -1 to roll on the damage table for Venom Cannons

The -1 to vehicle damage for Venom Cannons is absolutely propostrous I'll give you that. You need a 6 on the penetrating hits chart to destroy, so even a penetrating hit from a Venom Cannon can't destroy a vehicle. You'll kill them quickly enough by stripping them off their hull points though.

Yet, that said, considering AP- weapons don't have -1 on the chart anymore, Venom Cannons having it is lame. Thumbs up that it's been fixed in the upcoming FAQs and erratas?

Actually, I've seen that 'evade' is only something you can do when being shot at by other flyers.

Nah, I verified that today. You can evade against everything, just like you can go to ground against everything. I specifically asked the rulebook fellow to check it out, and he did.

they won't maintain flyer status too long but rather go into hover mode.

They'll go into hover mode only if the enemy firepower has been crippled and they start exterminating the enemy like rats. Otherwise, if they can't turn to find enemies anymore (a particularly mobile opponent), they'll zoom off the board and come back next turn for another volley.

Formosa wrote:its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

It is most definitely the rules that are the problem, because they allow this gak to happen. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. There's really no other way to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simple.

It is not my responsibility to keep GW's game balanced, it's theirs.

d-usa wrote:Now now, it's not the players fault for playing like a douche. It's GWs fault for letting the player play like a douche.

lol, because it isn't "playing like a douche". What rules are you breaking? What are you doing wrong? GW write the rules for "broken" units and combos, and allow people to use them, and don't ever tell you that you shouldn't (or even acknowledge that anything in the game is indeed "broken" to begin with). People when playing a game are naturally going to try and win, and do whatever they can within the rules to make that as easy as possible. Game designers (should) know this.

This is why it is entirely their fault: if GW actually put thought or effort into their $80 fething rulebook then there wouldn't be any problems. As it is we're going to have to come up with more unwritten rules to follow when playing games, and since everyone who plays this game has different opinions on what's "broken" (usually it works like this: "Your army beat mine, it's overpowered, wah."), playing this game is going to be a fething mess. More trouble than it's worth, in my opinion.

Can somebody PLEASE tell me if Grey Knights and Space Marines are "brothers in arms"?

Spartan089 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:[Snip

Becouse it was balanced before? GW isn't about balanced it about playing with your toy soldiers with a structured systems, so we know who won. 6th looks to be fun, unlike 5th were I felt like going to sleep. Still will not be buying models from GW, have more then I need now and other companys sell damn nice models and a better price point. But, I will be joining the next campaign my LFGS runs if 6th dosen't give my that sleeping feeling.

im with you on this, 5th felt like "going through the motions" it didnt have any.... i dont know... razzle dazle i suppose, fantasy has that in droves, i played a game last week at 3k and by the end we each had like 6-7 models left... magic flying everywhere, units getting chopped up in combat, its was a constant battle to try and get the edge... 40k 5th was like... "oh you brought GK/SW puri/psyfle/longfang spame eh... " paint by numbers gaming=bordom

Sidstyler wrote:

Formosa wrote:its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

It is most definitely the rules that are the problem, because they allow this gak to happen. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. There's really no other way to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simple.

It is not my responsibility to keep GW's game balanced, it's theirs.

Why do people keep saying "keep the game balanced", it wasn't before.

Until GW starts from the ground floor up, playtesting for a 2-3 year and releases the Core Book and every Codex at the same time, 40K will never be balanced. I don't know how else to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simply... for excepting a balanced system with there track record..

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

Noir wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

Formosa wrote:its NOT, repeat NOT the rules that will be the problem, its the players.... YOU, not the rulebook, YOU are the one who will cheese it up and break the allies rules by having OVER 9000!!!!!! Spambacks, GW is not forcing you to take them or even use them, im ging to add some Stormravens to my ravenwing as its fluffy (DA will get a new flyer no doubt, but for the time being i must make do) and will add some MUCH needed punch to my overcosted underpowered army... but mainly... a black Ravenwing stormraven will look the shiz niz and what not

It is most definitely the rules that are the problem, because they allow this gak to happen. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. There's really no other way to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simple.

It is not my responsibility to keep GW's game balanced, it's theirs.

Why do people keep saying "keep the game balanced", it wasn't before.

Until GW starts from the ground floor up, playtesting for a 2-3 year and releases the Core Book and every Codex at the same time, 40K will never be balanced. I don't know how else to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simply... for excepting a balanced system with there track record..

Exactly, im just advocating making the best of what we seem to be getting, will this edition be ballanced...no, will 40k ever be ballanced is a better question, anyone who wants to play other games go for it, i will too, butim still gonna play the gateway game that made me go to those other games.

Wouldn't that only be 2 dreads overall?

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

Off the top of my head I could come up with a GK and an IG list that would easily squash that. Stop pretending GW have broken 40k.

Since we are talking a bit on Allies, a little bit of humor.

http://imgur.com/kZLnq

azazel the cat wrote:

Is this official? Or is it still speculation of what it is? Is the ally chart seperate or included with the regular FOC so no 4 Elites/FA/HS?

Sidstyler wrote:
It is most definitely the rules that are the problem, because they allow this gak to happen. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. There's really no other way to explain it, you're just wrong, plain and simple.

It is not my responsibility to keep GW's game balanced, it's theirs.

GW are not a software company. They cannot release patches for games 3 times a week in order to balance them.
Try playing unpatched Warcraft 3, then lecture the community (and professional games developers) about "game balance".

Noir wrote:Why do people keep saying "keep the game balanced", it wasn't before.

I think you misunderstood. I never said 40k was ever perfectly balanced, I'm just disagreeing with the idea that balancing the game is my job as a player. I'm disagreeing with the idea that I have to "restrain" myself and purposely not take units that I know are going to perform well in game because it wouldn't be "right" or "fair" to the other player, who is supposedly doing the same but in all likelihood won't be because he has his own ideas of what's "fair" and what isn't.

IF the game was fething balanced for competitive play in the first place, then you wouldn't EVER have to worry about whether or not your army follows all of the unwritten rules and will get a pass from the holier-than-thou casuals who play. You'd know your army was balanced because the game was designed that way.

Joey wrote:GW are not a software company. They cannot release patches for games 3 times a week in order to balance them.
Try playing unpatched Warcraft 3, then lecture the community (and professional games developers) about "game balance".

So because an RTS game that came out on the PC about a decade ago was unbalanced on release I can't expect GW to balance their game?

You're wrong anyway, FAQ's could effectively be GW's "patches" for the game, and they don't put any effort into THAT, either.

Davor wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Is this official? Or is it still speculation of what it is? Is the ally chart seperate or included with the regular FOC so no 4 Elites/FA/HS?

Yes, separate charge that only applies if you take allies. Everyone except Tyranids gets it.

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

Holy butcheese batman!

aaaand this is why i dont play at tourny...


Show me in the allies rules what makes this list broken

Sammael
Blood angel Libby on bike (painted as RW)
2 x Ravenwing attack squad 2 plasmagun, attack bike mm
10 BA sniper scouts
3 land speeders, tornado, typhoon
3 land speeders, tornado, typhoon
Stormraven

well thats it

Joey wrote:GW are not a software company. They cannot release patches for games 3 times a week in order to balance them.
Try playing unpatched Warcraft 3, then lecture the community (and professional games developers) about "game balance".

Maybe not to the same degree but GW can technically release patches in the form of Erratas whenever they want to.

Sidstyler wrote:
It is not my responsibility to keep GW's game balanced, it's theirs.

GW job is to write a book that works for their target audience.

It's your responsibility to play in a way that eveyone you play with finds fun.

GW are not writing a book aimed at the hard core WAAC tournament players, they are aiming at the youngsters who like shiny models, and want to have some framework to play with them. Most of them are not going to be building competitive lists or worrying about the tourney balance.

Old style role playing games were far more open ended and open to abuse, but, heh, guess what each gaming group would decide how far to go with that themselves based on what they found fun, if you didn't agree with charts handing out +99 swords of uber killyness you didn't use them.

If you don't like the idea of X and Y allying then don't do it. You don't have to play with those who do if that is not fun for you. Just as they don't have to play with you if that is what they find fun.