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Original post here: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/

Codex Space Marine Latest (Rumors)
-Apothecaries grant Feel No Pain to their squad and any attached IC
-Storm Shields again cited as granting 3+ Invulnerable vs all attacks (shooting and assault)
-Sternguard Veterans may all take combi-weapons in addition to their special ammo types
-Thunderfire Cannon has 3 different fire modes all of which use four of the small-blast markers
-Shrike grants his army Fleet
-Lysander grants his army Combat Tactics or Stubborn

Upcoming Release Dates
We've been hearing that the following items are coming up fast upon us:
-Space Marine Spearhead $244, September 20
-Space Marine Codex $25, October 4
-Space Marine Drop Pod $30, October 4

Man, every set of rumors seems to make SM more and more powerful...when will they stop?

Let's hope not!

Seriously though, no rumors have shown POINTS COSTS either yet, so, we'll see how it all ends up.

It's all high-cost uber Non-Scoring Elites and HQs so far.

Let's see the points, and what people can actually take in 1500 pts...

News about the apothecarys? Are they independent like techmarines or a command/honor-guard upgrade?

Everything I've read about Apoths state they are a command squad upgrade, with two wounds (Probably because of the new allocation rules).

I like BOLS rumours;

NEW MARINE RUMOURS OUR EARS HAVE PICKED UP

Rumours from Warseer

wow, my marines sound like they will be pretty damn uber, but like everyone says, lets see the points before we go into hysterics.

Yep, there's the way to encourage more troop-heavy armies - put the Elite/HQ units of the game's biggest seller on steroids. Obviously

It truly is a weird harvest of rumors so far. Everything we've seen so far has been a massive boost or a minor leg up for the poster children of 40k. There hasn't been even the slightest hint of something going away, or costing more and so on. This makes me suspect that GW is seeding these things intentionally these days.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
-Apothecaries grant Feel No Pain to their squad and any attached IC

Honestly, that makes sense with how painboyz work for the greenskins. Still more "just give 'em FNP!" in action though

AgeOfEgos wrote:Everything I've read about Apoths state they are a command squad upgrade, with two wounds (Probably because of the new allocation rules).

Wow, so ... convenient. Thankfully all CSM aspiring champions have 2 wounds too, for fluff and in game reasons.

- Salvage

Tribune wrote:Yep, there's the way to encourage more troop-heavy armies - put the Elite/HQ units of the game's biggest seller on steroids. Obviously

Actually, it is a way of forcing players to make better decisions about army design. For the longest time, it's been MAX Heavies, MAX HQ, Min Troops, extra points into Fast. Mindless and boringly effective.

In the SM case, the "Elite" Veterans were embarrassingly pitiful compared to Tacticals. 3 extra points for +1A and +1 Ld? No thanks.

Now, HQs and Elites compete with Troops because they do something different or special, but are limited in slots, and likely expensive. So the Codex is better balanced overall.

Agamemnon2 wrote:It truly is a weird harvest of rumors so far. Everything we've seen so far has been a massive boost or a minor leg up for the poster children of 40k. There hasn't been even the slightest hint of something going away, or costing more and so on. This makes me suspect that GW is seeding these things intentionally these days.

Interesting stuff, to be sure, but "a massive boost"? Perhaps only in Apocalypse, where the FOC doesn't apply. Also, Scouts are going to drop to WS3 BS3, so that's a cut.

Still waiting on costs, though.

They've also lost the amility to take a special in each squad.

So for the poor fools who, like me, modeled their armies like that we're going to be painting more Tactical marines so we can shift the models around.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Tribune wrote:Yep, there's the way to encourage more troop-heavy armies - put the Elite/HQ units of the game's biggest seller on steroids. Obviously

Actually, it is a way of forcing players to make better decisions about army design.

In the SM case, the "Elite" Veterans were embarrassingly pitiful compared to Tacticals. 3 extra points for +1A and +1 Ld? No thanks.

Now, HQs and Elites compete with Troops because they do something different or special, but are limited in slots, and likely expensive. So the Codex is better balanced overall.

Now John, I don't want to get into an elaborate debate over what are merely rumours, but I have to say your rationale lacks merit. The kids wants their shiny toys. And those toys are being put in the non-Troops slots. That's not encouraging better army design decisions, it's feeding a raging crack habit for the l33t R0XX0R!!11

And your judgement of the worth of old codex Vets lends no weight to the point at hand. Since when has making you feel happier about your Elites been a function of game balance?

Answer: Never.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the longest time, it's been MAX Heavies, MAX HQ, Min Troops, extra points into Fast. Mindless and boringly effective.

I agree with this problem statement. However, the rumours so far suggest little will happen to encourage a change in player behaviours regarding effectively using troops. They'll just wonder why their predilection for these kinds of lists are winning them less games. And sadly, the GW adage of 'new models, new rules' will obscure the real reason for a lot of people.

Is the $240 Space Marine Battleforce that just came out not the same thing? Are they releasing a Spearhead as well?

I find it amusing that thus far hardly anybody cries piss and poo at the WS and BS reduction of scouts. Does this mean that everybody agrees that the young scouts are as of yet inexperienced and still have some way to go before they are good, or are they hardly ever fielded and is the reduction a "meh, like I care" for most marine players?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Codex Space Marine Latest (Rumors)
-Apothecaries grant Feel No Pain to their squad and any attached IC
-Storm Shields again cited as granting 3+ Invulnerable vs all attacks (shooting and assault)
-Sternguard Veterans may all take combi-weapons in addition to their special ammo types
-Thunderfire Cannon has 3 different fire modes all of which use four of the small-blast markers
-Shrike grants his army Fleet
-Lysander grants his army Combat Tactics or Stubborn

How many freaking rules do spase marienz (hurr!) need? I thought simplicity and streamlining were supposed to be the order of the day? I mean come on - any more than 1 type of Lesser Daemon is too complicated, but a Thunderfire Cannon with 3 different fire modes is just dandy? Is this really necessary? Jeezy!

Its the free special and heavy weapons for having 10 marines that gets me. I hope it is not true. Giving SM a clawback for being forced what everyone else is having to do.
Its also sloppy design.

I'm doubtful about the rumors that Scouts are getting a cut in WS and BS. The last time I heard those rumors from a credible source has been a few months. I've seen more recent rumors keeping them at WS and BS of 4. I don't think they're going anywhere from that.

September/October can't get here fast enough.



I'd like to say "So that the spase marienz (hurr!) posse can calm the down."

But in reality, it will probably only be so that the spase marienz (hurr!) posse can complain about actual problems instead of going ape over rumors.

Rumors without points costs too.

/

I heard the basic SM will go down to 14 points. You know to keep them in line with all the other undercosted units in the game.

/sarcasm

I'm not sure how anyone can say that marines got stronger.

How often do you see vets/dreads used in tourney lists?

TH Termies have 3+ Invul now. Wonderful. They're still not a great choice.

And Sternguard? Raise your hand if you use Deathwatch!

Of the new codex, all that we KNOW AS FACT is that it severely nerfs two of the SM's best units.
1) Min/maxed lasplas squads?
You have to take 10 marines now, and weapon points cost will probably go up to match DA/BA.
2) 2 Asscan Terminators
Restricted to squads of 5 and one gimped assault cannon.

What is a 1500 pt 5th ed marine army going to look like?
Master w/ Lighting Claws ~150 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Assault Squad w/ PW (or a 1 attack PF lol)
Devastator Squad w/ 4 ML ~ 230 pts
+ZOMFG STERNGUARD UBER !!11
+AV13 DREAD!!!11

Yeah. Great army. Totally throws off those Horde Orks and Mech Eldar.

Tribune wrote:The kids wants their shiny toys. And those toys are being put in the non-Troops slots. That's not encouraging better army design decisions, it's feeding a raging crack habit for the l33t R0XX0R!!11

And your judgement of the worth of old codex Vets lends no weight to the point at hand.

However, the rumours so far suggest little will happen to encourage a change in player behaviours regarding effectively using troops. They'll just wonder why their predilection for these kinds of lists are winning them less games.

If GW sells lots of toys as swap-outs, that's also good.

As a comparison point to the new shiny stuff, it sets a floor of cost effectiveness.

The point is that those players who want to win are going to have to be more selective with which shiny new toys they take. If those kids are thick-headed, it may take a while, but ultimately, they will need more Troops if they want to do well.

BrookM wrote:I find it amusing that thus far hardly anybody cries piss and poo at the WS and BS reduction of scouts. Does this mean that everybody agrees that the young scouts are as of yet inexperienced and still have some way to go before they are good, or are they hardly ever fielded and is the reduction a "meh, like I care" for most marine players?

If people go back to 2E, Scouts have worse stats besides armor. Personally, I think people focus on the sheer coolness of things like Thunderfire Cannon and Conversion Beamer.

Orlanth wrote:Its the free special and heavy weapons for having 10 marines that gets me. I hope it is not true. Giving SM a clawback for being forced what everyone else is having to do.
Its also sloppy design.

When the "free" heavy and special weapons are Flamer & HB instead of Las/Plas, and 5+Special isn't an option, the design is actually very clever.

I think that the 3+ storm shield is probably the most stupidly frustrating piece, 4+ against shooting/assault makes sense, but 3+ just makes the Assault Terminators into too much of a brick.

I hate how GW always makes the units which suck better to get people to buy new models.

same as WoW. Think of it was being like a patch.

If even half of these rumours turn out to be true, then Chaos Space Marines will end up being more vanilla than Loyslists. The only way to do a fluffy Ultramarine or Imperial Fist force will be to play Black Legion!!!

BYE

3+ Invulnerable Saving Storm Shields will make BT Assault Marines the gak.

for +3 points, they can ditch either their Bolt Pistol or CCW for a Storm Shield. That's absolutely nasty.

10-Man Assault Squad: 1 Power Fist, 2 Plasma Pistols, 8 Bolt Pistols, 10 Storm Shields - 275pts.

Sure, antipersonnel weapons can still mess them up (RoF being better than AP3 or better in this case), but those units will be able to bog down all sorts of Monstrous Creatures.

Assault Terminators are now my favorite unit entry if that's true. Running, Zealing, 2+/3+ Saving Termies for 40pts a pop? Sign me up.

CK

CK

Hindsight wrote:Is the $240 Space Marine Battleforce that just came out not the same thing? Are they releasing a Spearhead as well?

The Spearhead is different. It is just new stuff but you get it all early. Five or six characters. The new techmarine. Scout bikes. Both of the new vets I think.

I mean honestly some people like buying all the new stuff.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:Of the new codex, all that we KNOW AS FACT is that it severely nerfs two of the SM's best units.
1) Min/maxed lasplas squads?
You have to take 10 marines now, and weapon points cost will probably go up to match DA/BA.
2) 2 Asscan Terminators
Restricted to squads of 5 and one gimped assault cannon.

I think it's a blessing that these two standards are going away, personally. Time to branch out, lapdogs.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:3+ Invulnerable Saving Storm Shields will make BT Assault Marines the gak.

ACTUALLY C:BT has been out for some time and isn't likely to get a rewrite simply because of the new marine hotness going down. So unless C:SM specifically supercedes the storm shield text of C:BT - or the new BBB specifically redefines storm shields and makes it a universal change (don't have it yet myself) - then your shields are 4+ against combat as currently.

- Salvage

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:What is a 1500 pt 5th ed marine army going to look like?
Master w/ Lighting Claws ~150 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Tactical Squad w/ Las Plas ~190 pts
Assault Squad w/ PW (or a 1 attack PF lol)
Devastator Squad w/ 4 ML ~ 230 pts
+ZOMFG STERNGUARD UBER !!11
+AV13 DREAD!!!11

Yeah. Great army. Totally throws off those Horde Orks and Mech Eldar.

I was thinking about this, and wondering if a demi-Company would be standard, as proposed above. Under 5E, I'm thinking it's probably a good start:
- 1 HQ - 100 pts
- 3 Tactical Squads w/ Las & PLas + Rhino = 225+ = 700+ pts in Troops
- Devastator Squad = 225 pts
- Assault Squad = 250 pts

By my count, that's 1250, maybe 1300 pts just in the demi-Company!

So SM players are only going to have 200-250 pts to play with for cool HQ upgrades or Elites.

OTOH, at 1850 pts, that's 550-600 pts of toys. Probably excessive.

Definitely, if people want to take SM down a peg in 5E, just cut the points to the 1500 recommended in the rulebook.

Who needs troops when you can wipe out your oppoent and get the win every time.


We do know some of the points.

Space Marine Captains are 25 more points

Dreadnoughts with assault cannons have gone up 20pts

Scouts are 18pts each, naked.

Rhino's are down to the new cost

The powerfist has gone down 5pts

10 marines with flamer and free missile is 170pts... if the missile is free in 10 man squads where does the extra points come from? I bet they make you buy a vet sarge at 10 guys and the flamer is 5pts or the basic marine is now 16pts and a flamer is 10pts.

Predator destructors have gone down 25pts from the last codex making them the cheapest destructors in the game by far. These are also possibly the best deals in the codex.

10 devatators with 2 lascannons and 2 multimeltas is 245pts. The old codex had this unit coming in at 260pts. Assuming no forced vet sarge on the 10-man unit, that means the lascannon has dropped. I bet you are forced to take a vet sarge for 15pts and the lascannon has dropped to 25pts in the devestator squad and the multi-melta has dropped to 15pts each in the dev squad.

I have not seen the codex. I just inferred these points costs from the battle report write up on page 245 in the new rulebook and the points costs listed there.

Latest batch of rumors from B&C puts base cost of Sternguard Vets at 25pts before options... options include swapping bolters for stormbolters or combi weapons (while keeping special ammo) and taking 2 special/heavy weapons.