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Seeing as how the latest chaos codex has been pretty flavourless, im thinking of using my chaos army with the loyalist rulebook. Given that I havent taken any defilers or the like, the only think that I will lose will be the daemonic possession on my vindie.

I was thinking of using Lysander as a Perturabo clone, which will then give me hammer-happy termies

Now to the question: Would you allow me to play with an army like this, and more importantly, could I use it at a tournament?

As long as you said "I'm using the Loyalist Marine rules" at the start of the game and told me what stuff counts as (and had no problem reminding me if I forgot) I'd be happy to play you. I'd also be alright with letting you do it in a tournament I was running as long as you took the same precautions with all your opponents, and handed out your army list to them.

Yeah I could see Lysander making for an interesting Iron Warriors army.

As long as all the models/guns are WYSIWYG I don't see a problem.

Of course. The Marine Codex gives great flexibility for making the Legions - far more than that pathetic excuse for a Chaos Codex does - so go for it.

You can even have Iron Warrior arty batteries with the Thunderfire Cannon, crewed by minor Warsmiths. Use Possessed w/Wings as Vangard Vets - that sort of thing.

Hell you could even make an argument for converting Marines into 'small Oblits', and then using the Sternguard rules (differing ammo = different Oblit weapons).

BYE

i wouldnt have any problems with this, aslong as i was made aware it was a loyal army.
i dont think anyone would have a problem.

Personally I was thinking of using the new SM codex for my Iron Warrirors.

2 Masters of the Forge as Warsmiths, three thunderfire cannons, 3 dreads, 4 rhino mounted SM squads with a couple goodies and another foot squad to sit in ones deployment zone as a safety net and blamo, 2000 list.

The new SM codex definitely feels like it would much better suit Night Lords and Iron Warriors armies, possibly a couple others, than the current CSM list.



I don't think most people or events would have any problem as long as everyone knows whats going on and one doesn't try and switch between CSM abilities and loyalist units mid-game.

Amusingly, I'm setting up my coming army as non-Spiky "Traitors".

The main thing is clarity of models, so it's clear who's armed with what, who counts as what.

@Vaktathi: I'm not sure that the new SM Dex is that great for IW - they won't have access to Obliterators as the "signature" unit. But other than that, yeah, most of this stuff is cookie cutter back and forth.

See my post above Jo... oh, wait, he can't.

Silly me.



BYE

I am in favor of "counts as" armies as long as it is really clear what is what.

@ John: I forgot entirely about my oblits
As HMBC said above, i could use varnguard (sp.) as obliterators, using the different ammunition as differing weapons. Not sure how this would work out though.

Techmarines and their thunderfire cannons would work very well, I currently have several techmarines in my army so it would be cool to have them as something other than aspiring champions.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Amusingly, I'm setting up my coming army as non-Spiky "Traitors".

The main thing is clarity of models, so it's clear who's armed with what, who counts as what.

@Vaktathi: I'm not sure that the new SM Dex is that great for IW - they won't have access to Obliterators as the "signature" unit. But other than that, yeah, most of this stuff is cookie cutter back and forth.

Obliterators aren't by any means mandatory in an IW army, they are just more common in IW armies than in others. In fact most IW fluff (Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, etc) doesn't even mention oblits, but does mention tons of heavy cannon weapons, artillery, etc.

Thundfire Cannons might make passable Obliterators too - the 3 different modes of fire could represent the morphing of different weapons.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Thundfire Cannons might make passable Obliterators too - the 3 different modes of fire could represent the morphing of different weapons.

Use the fantasy chaos cannon instead of the thunderfire...

As long as it's clear whats what, even if it needs you pointing it out to your opponent (Jump Packs = Assault Marines, Daeminc Wings = Veterans and so on) I can't how someone can have a problem with this...

I want to play night lords, would it be acceptable in a tournement if i used a loyalist list but night lords models?

then If I produced a live chicken at the start of every game, placed it on the table, cut it's head off and let it run around. I could put the head on top of one of my tanks or something, just to get in the spirit you know..

would anyone have a problem with this, I mean if i told my opponent i was using loyalist rules, and explained what everything was representing?

dr vompire wrote:I want to play night lords, would it be acceptable in a tournement if i used a loyalist list but night lords models?

then If I produced a live chicken at the start of every game, placed it on the table, cut it's head off and let it run around. I could put the head on top of one of my tanks or something, just to get in the spirit you know..

would anyone have a problem with this, I mean if i told my opponent i was using loyalist rules, and explained what everything was representing?

I actually think Night Lords would work better with the SM list than the CSM codex, especially with Vanguard vets for some Raptor amazingness and Shrike to counts-as a Zho Sahaal or something.

You may want to leave the chicken at home however, as your FLGS may not enjoy cleaning chicken blood.

I'm currently running my berzerkers as Black Templar and so far no one has had any problems with it.

WHFB Chaos warriors make great neophytes with just a little work and the WHFB champion of Khorne standing on a pile of skulls also makes for an awesome Emperor's Champion.

I'm thinking about running my black legion guys as loyalists too. I think with the White Scars guy that gives the whole army outflank they could make for a pretty cool army.

dr vompire wrote:I want to play night lords, would it be acceptable in a tournement if i used a loyalist list but night lords models?

then If I produced a live chicken at the start of every game, placed it on the table, cut it's head off and let it run around. I could put the head on top of one of my tanks or something, just to get in the spirit you know..

would anyone have a problem with this, I mean if i told my opponent i was using loyalist rules, and explained what everything was representing?

Well personally I would rather you use the chaos codex but I can empathize with your desire, (if its not apparrent I play Dark Angels)

Aside from that I think everythings cool.

dr vompire wrote:I want to play night lords, would it be acceptable in a tournement if i used a loyalist list but night lords models?

That would depend whether they were painted as Night Lords. If just modeled, then I'd be OK. But if everything looks exactly like CSM Night Lords, then it would be just as confusing if a full Ultramarines army played as Chaos.

If said army just consists of Night Lord Bikers and Raptors - I don't see the problem. You can do that with the new Marine Codex, and it's perfectly fluffy for the Night Lords. You can't do it with the Chaos Codex, so why use it?

BYE

I think it's a bad idea. The whole point of Chaos Marines and Renegades is that they've abandoned the selfless discipline required to know no fear, engage in combat tactics, and generally act like well-disciplined Space Marines.

They're brave, to be sure, so they have higher Leadership, but when things go pear-shaped (usually because they got stabbed in the back by their allies), it's every traitor for himself, just like any sensible mortal that fears what death will bring.

I mean, maybe you want your uncontrollable psychotic freaks to act like heroic and selfless Imperial lapdogs, just "Spiky Marines" to go with your Red, Blue, Yellow, Grey, Black, and White Marines. Go ahead.

If you want Chaos Space Marines, use that book. The rules in it will reflect the background better than using the new Space Marine book. If you want to use the Space Marine book, then that's great: just man up and paint yourself some sparkling little tin heroes to go with it!

But the rules in the Chaos Space Marine Codex are incapable of representing many of the Traitor Legions. The Loyalist Marine Codex actually works better in this regard.

The Loyalist Codex also better represents Renegade Space Marines - because they still have all the items they would have (like Razorbacks, Drop Pods, Storm Bolters etc.).

Generally the Chaos Space Marine Codex isn't really good at representing anything other than Fzorgle Princes, Oblits, Generic Daemons and really terrible Possessed.

BYE

I've seen some really tasteful twin Slaanesh lord and Khorne Berzerker armies doing the rounds lately. They make my copy of Slaves to darkness cry.

H.B.M.C.:

How do you figure they're incapable of representing many Traitor Legions? Which ones? How so?

What makes you think that Renegades would have all the bells and whistles (as well as motivation) that a Loyalist chapter would have?

The Chaos Space Marine book is great at representing all sorts of armies. The fact that a few tactically blinkered people default to Codex: Chaos Space Marines for Noobs says nothing at all about its representative power.

Nurglitch wrote:What makes you think that Renegades would have all the bells and whistles (as well as motivation) that a Loyalist chapter would have?

Night Lords are not "Renegades". They are a First Founding Legion and many of them are Heresy-era veterans. They were the first legion to field jump pack troops. If anybody's jump packers deserve to be assaulting the same turn they come in it is the Night Lords.


CSM raptors cost 215 pts for a squad of 10 w/aspiring champion.

SM assault marines cost 190 pts for a squad of 10 w/free (vet) srg.

The 2 squads are identical except the SM trade 1 pt of Ld for ATSKNF and Combat Tactics and they are 25 pts cheaper.

Case closed.

Nurglitch wrote:How do you figure they're incapable of representing many Traitor Legions? Which ones? How so?

It's not that the Chaos codex is incapable of representing Traitor Legions. It's just that the Space Marine codex is better at it. If I use C: CSM then my warsmith has a non-functional servo-arm. If I use C: SM then not only does he get his servo-arm back, but he even gets to fortify a piece of terrain for me (you know, like how you'd expect a siege master to do). How much fluffier can you get?

It works as a code fo me, I'm happy using it, I'm not playing a specific legion, I might get better deals from playing the SM codex but why? So it's easier to win? So I can better represent my 'theme'?

No the armies theme comes from what you select and how you play, if you want to do nightlords play with raptors and don't take whichever marks, don't say that to be fluffy you must use vanguards or BA's. You can make you theme using the dex provided, stop whining

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Night Lords are not "Renegades". They are a First Founding Legion and many of them are Heresy-era veterans. They were the first legion to field jump pack troops. If anybody's jump packers deserve to be assaulting the same turn they come in it is the Night Lords.

And let's also not forget that the generic space marine bikes are significantly cheaper for the same unit, possible to take as troop choices, and can outflank too. You can make a much better Night Lords list with the new codex Space Marines than with the C:CSM book. Same goes for Iron Warriors.

I also fail to see what would be "unfluffy" about Combat Tactics. The Chaos Traitor Legions didn't get to be 10,000 years old by sticking around to get killed when things turn ugly.

Reaver83 wrote:You can make you theme using the dex provided, stop whining

GW has been kind enough to provide a variety of dexes to choose from so why not make your theme using the best dex for the job?

So how would you do Word Bearers or Alpha Legion with the new Marine Codex?

I wonder though, can I take Cassius in my Deathguard army? He's obviously dedicated to Nurgle as he's tougher than Typhus, so if I convert him up, do you think people will mind?

BYE