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1. Will people paint their armies in army color of special character they will be playing? Or will they just build one army and paint specials seperate and use them?

2. Did GW screw up with this special character changes the way to play doctrine? By this I mean will sales slip when people don't have to paint or buy new stuff to get benefits of another chapters special characters. Will the 12 year olds just paint a mess and buy specials and call army complete?

3. What kind of silliness are we going to see with SM armies at RTT? Say someone plays Salamander chief and Shrike. Twin linked flamer, plasma, meltas or fleeting marines....all this based on what opponent you are playing. How do armies prepare for the potential threat they may face?

Just something to think about....

GW has apparently cornered the market on all blue paints. Why be anything but an Ultramarine?

Besides there are still Dark Angels and Bloods and ...

Who wants overbearing tactical options or free specials and heavies when they can wear a robe, grow fangs or look like a viking?

Ummm, errrrr, yeah, yeah thats it.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:1. Will people paint their armies in army color of special character they will be playing? Or will they just build one army and paint specials seperate and use them?

I play grey marines. I am going to tear many of them apart and rebuild them. They will be repainted as grey marines.

Any Specials will be grey, and fielded "counts as".

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:2. Did GW screw up with this special character changes the way to play doctrine?

No, it's fine. New players will buy stuff, existing players will add stuff.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:3. What kind of silliness are we going to see with SM armies at RTT? Say someone plays Salamander chief and Shrike.

So what's the problem? Taking 2 SCs means that they sank a lot of points into HQs instead of Troops. I say, let them!

My space sharks chapter will probably run a "counts as" model or two, with a few of the special characters repainted and slightly modified to fit within the theme. I'm not going to take marneus calgar, but a few of the lower level SC's might make their way into my force with beakies and a new color scheme.

Khan isn't getting much in the way of publicity, but he's very intruiging. I can see his army list pulling a few surprise tournament wins as people don't intimately know what he does, and his general will be able to pull a couple of (legal) fast ones at the end of the game people weren't expecting... i.e. Turbo Boosting those 5+ man bike squads onto objectives.

Cassius isn't either, but T6, Feel No Pain, and a Rosarius is pretty slick.

I'm personally sorely tempted by Thunderfire cannon (and attendant Techmarine allowing one Bolster Defenses, and one Servitor Squad) with said Gun Servitors in front of the cannon allowing for a cover save, a small squad of Scout bikes for the Locator Beacon, and Cluster Mines used on the Area Terrain I'm putting my Camo-Cloaked sniper scouts in... 2+ cover save, Snipers, Telion with what is pretty much a 2 shot sniper rifle. 3(possibly 4 if your opponent is a git) fairly cheap FOC's, including one troops choice all mutually supporting each other mutually supporting whatever it is you want your army to do. 555 points or there abouts to have 4 units (one scoring) on the board all doing their thing on turn one or before. Your sniper scouts will easily have a chance to be sitting in 2+ Cover, likely on an objective, guarded by a 2D6 S4 hit attack at anyone who tries to hand-to-hand them, while you've got 5 servitors lobbing 1 HB and 1PC at them while simultaneously providing a cover save for your Heavy 4, Blast artillery. And if/when the Thunderfire goes down, your techmarine takes two steps forward, prevents mindlock on the servitors to prevent mindlock and continues shooting + repairing vehicles if necessary. I'm even thinking turn 6 pop Tigurius and/or an Epistolary over to him using Gates, join the unit, then pop the unit over to a damaged vehicle, run, repair, prevent Victory Points.

I think the stigma of "special" characters needs to go away. I just treat them as another HQ choice and rename them. Counts as makes special characters not that special!

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

3. What kind of silliness are we going to see with SM armies at RTT? Say someone plays Salamander chief and Shrike. Twin linked flamer, plasma, meltas or fleeting marines....all this based on what opponent you are playing. How do armies prepare for the potential threat they may face?

It's my understanding that you can only use 1 doctrine. If you have 2 characters then you have to declare which you are using for doctrine.

ChaosDave wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

3. What kind of silliness are we going to see with SM armies at RTT? Say someone plays Salamander chief and Shrike. Twin linked flamer, plasma, meltas or fleeting marines....all this based on what opponent you are playing. How do armies prepare for the potential threat they may face?

It's my understanding that you can only use 1 doctrine. If you have 2 characters then you have to declare which you are using for doctrine.

Correct. I'm saying by playing 2 SC's you have 2 choices. Obviously picking the better choice based on opponent. Obviously you have to build force around the ideas of the characters. That is powerful when opponents are stuck playing their armies with little different options from game to game.

I don't know if its as good on paper as it is in play, unless the SCs in question closely correspond to each other in terms of equipment. In your example, I can use twin-linked flamers, meltas, plasma... or fleet with flamers, meltas, plasma. I don't think its quite as effective if you're building the force to take advantage of certain parts of the list.

I'm slightly more bothered by the direction of the SC directed changes to the FOC. GW said that all the FOC swapping was a part of the problem in other codecies, and here they go right back to it. I've also never been a fan of using my Flesh Tearers to, for example, "count as" Ultras, Blood Angels, or whatever. I wouldn't use Corbulo in my Flesh Tearers army.

For me, it takes some of the fun out of having "my" army, and using Tigurious as joe librarian of the Smiley Face Chapter. I preferred it when Ultras were Ultras were Ultras, and different chapters were mostly differentiated by a unit and the color of their armor, and it had less to do with the special rules.

Vulkan + Kantor + 30 Sternguard with 24ish Combi-Meltas for example?

Yeah those two don't really work well together... Shrike + Vulkan or Shrike + Khan, even Shrike + Lysander would be decent. Lysander + Kantor, Lysander + Vulkan, Vulkan + Kantor centered around Sternguard are also all viable.

I am personally using Khan to resurrect my now defunct Night Lords 40 bike army. They will be Night Lords "counts as" white scars. Hooray for not being screwed with a $900 unusable army!

Breton wrote:Yeah those two don't really work well together... Shrike + Vulkan or Shrike + Khan, even Shrike + Lysander would be decent. Lysander + Kantor, Lysander + Vulkan, Vulkan + Kantor centered around Sternguard are also all viable.

Space Marines have turned into a 1,000 point warmachine army!

Shatter Cake wrote:I think the stigma of "special" characters needs to go away. I just treat them as another HQ choice and rename them. Counts as makes special characters not that special!

hell yeah..."you're using a special character?" said with a raised eyebrow is so 4th edition. I'm using my codex and the HQ choices it contains.

I'm really not worried about SC swapping in tournament play. It's just a bad call, points wise. If we throw points cost out the window, then it's super broken.

George Spiggott wrote:

Breton wrote:Yeah those two don't really work well together... Shrike + Vulkan or Shrike + Khan, even Shrike + Lysander would be decent. Lysander + Kantor, Lysander + Vulkan, Vulkan + Kantor centered around Sternguard are also all viable.

Space Marines have turned into a 1,000 point warmachine army!

Hahaha!

It's hardly Warmachine. THese armies are more than just a one trick trump.

Stupid Warmachine! (and yes, I have played it. And yes, I am entitled to find a steaming pile of dung)

NinjaRay wrote:I'm really not worried about SC swapping in tournament play. It's just a bad call, points wise. If we throw points cost out the window, then it's super broken.

Besides which more than half the time the one you don't pick is the one you're going to be wishing you had for that crucial series of events on turn 5.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It's hardly Warmachine. THese armies are more than just a one trick trump.

Stupid Warmachine! (and yes, I have played it. And yes, I am entitled to find a steaming pile of dung)

Don't hold back now, tell us what you really think!

OT: Vulcan (Salamanders) makes melta weapons twin linked right? Does that include Combi-weapons. I think Bike & Attack bike squads could be pretty good with him.

I can't possibly do that. If I was to call Warmachine a juvenile pursuit in Powergaming, with all the variation of a Clone Trooper Convention, I might get into trouble.

Have you stopped being like that since you stopped playing Warmachine then? I suppose it's a start, the next step would be getting over it and moving on. I haven't slagged off AD&D in years.

I never was. That book lied to me! It lied to me! It promised a new dawn in gaming. Sorely disappointed was I :(

But yeah, moved on, sold all my stuff.

It was the people you played with then. Maybe you're missing out maybe your not, horses for courses and all that. Your not in the Warseer crèche now, you'll not get into trouble for having an opinion here.

OT: Has anyone looked into how new Space Marines fit onto the Inquisiton books. Are any of the choices better for the revision when used as allies in an Inquisition force?

I can see Sternguard fitting in quite nicely with Sisters.

Sisters are cheap enough to form the Objective Holders, and the Sternguard make for a nice complimentary unit. Plus, with their AP4, they can arguably reduce the need for Heavy Bolters, allowing the Sisters to field more Heavy Flamers, which will of course aid them in clearing out objectives.

Thats my ha'penny worth!

Played a Trial game last night:

Used my sternguard poorly. He wasn't as mobile/aggressive as I expected from a chaos army, so they were more or less wasted in a good firing position, I should have mounted them up and run them across the board, they still would have done ok had we not run out of time, as he'd just moved to within Rapid Fire AP3 Gets Hot! range.

Thunderfire + 9 Sniper Scouts + Telion and camo cloaks+ 3 Scouts bikes for the Cluster Mines and Locator Beacon is better than I even expected.... 2+ Cover saves shouldn't be possible.

Used the Tremor shell on his jump infantry... stand still, or take dangerous terrain tests, baby.

Null Zone screws Terminators hard too.

Might is pretty cool vs Nurgle.

Bike v Bike assaults are exceptionally painful. Not because everything dies, but because nothing does.

Chronus in a LRC isn't half bad. He only had two guns on the table that could touch it, so I never got shaken or stunned, but the BS5 Twin linked everywhere but the MM was nice.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:1. Will people paint their armies in army color of special character they will be playing? Or will they just build one army and paint specials seperate and use them?

2. Did GW screw up with this special character changes the way to play doctrine? By this I mean will sales slip when people don't have to paint or buy new stuff to get benefits of another chapters special characters. Will the 12 year olds just paint a mess and buy specials and call army complete?

3. What kind of silliness are we going to see with SM armies at RTT? Say someone plays Salamander chief and Shrike. Twin linked flamer, plasma, meltas or fleeting marines....all this based on what opponent you are playing. How do armies prepare for the potential threat they may face?

Just something to think about....

Well a mix between Salamander Vulcan and Shrike would be nice but it doesn't work. If you have two characters with the special rule 'Chapter Tactics' you have to choose whose special rules you use, not both


//Edge

They should have made the FOC-altering stuff wargear options rather than tying it to 'special' characters who come with a crapload of wierd wargear and fluff that may not fit your army.

I agree with Kid_Kyoto on this one, i liked it the way the 4th ed Marine Dex worked where you choose chapter traits.
Now if you want to field a certain chapter you have to buy a expensive special character to see any changes. That's ok for larger
games but for like a 1500p game 250 p is a lot for just a HQ without retinue... sad...

GW - Do over and do it right


//Edge

Kid_Kyoto wrote:They should have made the FOC-altering stuff wargear options rather than tying it to 'special' characters who come with a crapload of wierd wargear and fluff that may not fit your army.

But they want to sell models Kyoto, and the best way to do that is to slap killer rules onto new models.

BYE