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Closed wrong tab, answered question in wrong thread...

 Dawnbringer wrote:

Lord of the Rings works well for that. It can be played in an hour, it just can't be finished in an hour. :p

Well that's why I'm building War of the Ring armies, so I can do 500-600 models per side
But we'll probably wind up using Kings of War or Warmaster (scaled to inches), as the WotR rules ... aren't very good.

Schmapdi wrote:
Any does anyone else feel like Mantic is getting way overextended?

Kings of War
Warpath
Dreadball
Deadzone
Dwarf King's Hold
Mars Attacks
New KoW skirmish

Seems like a lot to have on your plate for such a tiny company.

I definitely feel that way; I get that they want to cover a lot of bases but they're a tiny company and want to do all these things, so I'm afraid it'll end with nothing really that well done. I really like the concept of KoW as a cheaper, more streamlined Warhammer (and Warpath as the same for 40k), and I definitely see the appeal of Deadzone (Necromunda) and the forthcoming KoW Skirmish game (Mordheim) as things that are needed, but it seems like they're trying way too hard instead of focusing on a handful of games to really flesh out and get the quality up there; KoW for example if it had the level of quality of PP or old GW coupled with actual balanced rules, would be able to strike right at the heart of Warhammer as not only cheaper but better and comparable quality. What initially appealed to me in the first place about KoW was the fact it looked like Warhammer and played similar but with much more emphasis on strategy and tactics than listbuilding or uber-heroes, and Mantic's figures were half the price of GW; in fact that's how I discovered it in the first place because I was looking for Warhammer-like games without requiring a small fortune to start. I think they could capitalize on that by hitting all the pain points people have with Warhammer, while emphasizing the fact that you can use your existing models to draw away disgruntled WHFB players who might stick with it because they've invested hundreds. Even if that meant having your "Veer-myn" in fantasy, or a Necropolis army or what have you that's blatantly meant to be WHFB races. I think they either have to embrace that fully or ignore it completely, they can't reasonably do both.

I get that they don't want to just be a GW clone/knockoff (although I think it could work if you acted like the GW of old that everyone fondly remembers), so I like them adding things to take up the niche that GW abandoned, but it seems like they should have done that first. Dreadball/Deadzone/KoW Skirmish/DKH should have been their focus from the start to pick up the smaller scale games, and then perhaps expanded to KoW/Warpath in the future. Instead you have a bunch of half-done games, none of which are really good and many of which have little or no support until the next Kickstarter, which has never reassured me as it's easy to fall into the trap of relying on Kickstarters for everything, instead of actually getting revenue churning on your own; what will happen when the Kickstarters dry up? You're left with nothing because the only way you get money is by donations.

That said though I'm really looking forward to more about the KoW skirmish game especially; Mordheim was great.

Which PP quality are you talking about? I bought a Cyriss box for fun, and to date it's the shoddiest, lowest quality set of minis I own.

I also dispute your assertion that none of the Mantic games are any good, and I'm pretty sure so would quite a lot of Dreadball, Deadzone and KoW players.

They've also sold, according to reports from the open day, over 20k copies of Dreadball, and exceeded that again with retail preorders from distributors for Mars Attacks!, so they do have an income.

NTRabbit wrote:
Which PP quality are you talking about? I bought a Cyriss box for fun, and to date it's the shoddiest, lowest quality set of minis I own.

I also dispute your assertion that none of the Mantic games are any good, and I'm pretty sure so would quite a lot of Dreadball, Deadzone and KoW players.

They've also sold, according to reports from the open day, over 20k copies of Dreadball, and exceeded that again with retail preorders from distributors for Mars Attacks!, so they do have an income.

Most of the PP figures I've seen and some of the few I've bought are fairly good quality, not on part with GW for quality but IMHO GW goes overboard on minuscule details for rank and file troops where it isn't needed to the point where you get quality that you don't need just so they can justify the insane price.

RE their games not being good, I didn't say that, I said they should focus on either competing directly with GW or filling the niche that they abandoned. From what I've seen most of their games look really good, although some (Dreadball) I have zero interest whatsoever in. I actually really want to try Deadzone.

Restic is simply a touchy material. It also seems to age molds more quickly, leading to a marked difference between good and bad casts.

PP restic models are, on the average, better than Mantic casts, but neither reliably produce restic anywhere near the level I'd expect for the price in the modern era.

WayneTheGame wrote:

I definitely feel that way; I get that they want to cover a lot of bases but they're a tiny company and want to do all these things, so I'm afraid it'll end with nothing really that well done. I really like the concept of KoW as a cheaper, more streamlined Warhammer (and Warpath as the same for 40k), and I definitely see the appeal of Deadzone (Necromunda) and the forthcoming KoW Skirmish game (Mordheim) as things that are needed, but it seems like they're trying way too hard instead of focusing on a handful of games to really flesh out and get the quality up there; KoW for example if it had the level of quality of PP or old GW coupled with actual balanced rules, would be able to strike right at the heart of Warhammer as not only cheaper but better and comparable quality. What initially appealed to me in the first place about KoW was the fact it looked like Warhammer and played similar but with much more emphasis on strategy and tactics than listbuilding or uber-heroes, and Mantic's figures were half the price of GW; in fact that's how I discovered it in the first place because I was looking for Warhammer-like games without requiring a small fortune to start.

I get that they don't want to just be a GW clone/knockoff (although I think it could work if you acted like the GW of old that everyone fondly remembers), so I like them adding things to take up the niche that GW abandoned, but it seems like they should have done that first. Dreadball/Deadzone/KoW Skirmish/DKH should have been their focus from the start to pick up the smaller scale games, and then perhaps expanded to KoW/Warpath in the future. Instead you have a bunch of half-done games, none of which are really good and many of which have little or no support until the next Kickstarter, which has never reassured me as it's easy to fall into the trap of relying on Kickstarters for everything, instead of actually getting revenue churning on your own; what will happen when the Kickstarters dry up? You're left with nothing because the only way you get money is by donations.

That said though I'm really looking forward to more about the KoW skirmish game especially; Mordheim was great.

I'm just not seeing it for Kings of War - in fact the opposite. They've released three supplements now for KoW (and I need to get the newest one which was not KS). It's a vastly superior ruleset to anything on the market (that is still in print) when it comes to mass-battles fantasy gaming, and I have huge armies full of many manufacturer's miniatures.

Warpath is understandable, but it's still in beta/public playtesting, yes?

I've had a hell of a fun time with Deadzone and Dreadball. I have not played DKH or PP.

I'd say Mantic has a comparable accelerated release schedule as GW of old. Nearly every month in the late 80's was a new boardgame (usually licensed), and then throughout the 90's a new big box game or expansion almost every quarter:
Adeptus Titanicus,
Space Marine 1st,
Epic Space Marine 2nd,
Titan Legions,
Epic 40k,
Space Fleet,
Battlefleet Gothic,
Space Hulk,
Deathwing,
Genestealer,
Space Hulk 2nd,
Man o War,
Plague Fleet,
Warhammer 4,
Warhammer Battle Magic,
Warhammer Arcane Magic,
Warhammer 5,
Warhammer 5 Magic,
40k 2, Dark Millennium,
40k 3,
Necromunda,
Outlanders,
Gorkamorka,
Blood Bowl 3,
Tyranid Attack,
Advanced Space Crusade,
Advanced Heroquest (89),
Dragon Masters,
Mighty Empires,
Warhammer Quest,
Talisman,
the half-dozen Talisman expansions,
plus the smaller games like Doom of the Eldar and Battle for Armageddon,
Bommerz over da Sulphur River,
et cetera.

And I know I'm missing some.
I surely can't be the only one who remembers GW releasing every ruleset/game that every one of their designers had an idea for, even if it sucked? (looking at you, Bommerz)

The best quality minis I have are a handful of Aleph from Infinity I bought to paint, they blow everything else I have away. After that it would be some bits and bobs from Forgeworld, then the Mantic hard plastics, then the Battlefront hard plastics, then GW hard plastics.

I've yet to see the supposed superiority of GW plastics, but when the vast majority of my infantry options are decades old single piece sculpts in dodgy finecast resin, and the remainder equally old and very limited ABS minis, it's really difficult to judge.

I still think Mantic is doing just fine; they've made missteps here and there, but given the amount of overlap between all of their projects in rules, fluff and sculpts I don't see them as being stretched at all (except during KS fulfillment week!)

I'll vouch for the original Dwarf King's Hold games. Simple rules, simple setup, a fair amount of depth, and best of all, quick play times! Very solid little games.

We've played through all the included scenarios in the original box and one of these days would like to get Ancient Grudge to give the warband rules a try.

Alas, nobody seems to have a copy of that version for a reasonable price. I think they have the rules downloadable from the wargames vault or something.

I am definitely getting an early 90s GW vibe from Mantic these days. Sure they've made some royal goofs with how things panned out with certain Kickstarter pieces, but they seem to be trying to get things back on the right path.

A big epic quest game with lots of single piece items (due to their ease of pick up and play) is what the market really needs. Hell, they can make a trimmed down entry level game to dump in all the mass market shops.

One thing Mantic seems to do well on is keeping their rules tight. That's going to be the key to this new DKH I think.

 judgedoug wrote:

I surely can't be the only one who remembers GW releasing every ruleset/game that every one of their designers had an idea for, even if it sucked? (looking at you, Bommerz)

Bommerz was awesome, I played it once and if I remember correctly the rules went on to form Aeronautica Imperialis?

GW was definitely blitzing game releases back then, that list doesn't even count all the free white dwarf games, brewhouse bash was my favourite, the very definition of "beer and pretzels" gaming.

I went ahead and compiled all the photos and info on the new Dwarf King Hold game here: http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?8233-DKH-News-and-Rumors-from-Open-Day-2014

Thanks for the links. I actually went in and read the rules for both sets of games and I think we're going to give it a try here.

Thanks for the link tgmore

Hope you don't mind me quoting a couple of bits over here

The new DKH will be based on cardboard tiles but with plastic scenery such as tables, chairs and chests etc. This time the good guys play an adventuring party, which is the sculpts in the pictures dwarf fighter, human barbarian, elf bow woman and a human mage. The opposition is undead with new skeletons, armoured zombies and zombie troll mentioned. There will be 2 ways to play the 1st is specific scenarios telling the story during these characters will find upgrade weapons in a set manner and also learn new skills and become legandary as per the script so to speak.

4. Re: Armoured zombies in DKH IV: They specifically confirmed a zombified basilian paladin, also not sure if they were joking but zombie dwarfs were mentioned.

..Zombie dwarfs!

So it's Heroquest?

WayneTheGame wrote:
So it's Heroquest?

The similarities are it is a dungeon crawler themed fantasy board game. But there are many differances.

1. HQ uses one walled room you are somewhat limited in how many ways it can be reconfigured. DKH uses modular tiles

2. HQ has no game mechanic for solo or co-op play vs the game. Probably through a deck of event and monster cards.

3. HQ has no character progression. Your equipment is your level so to speak.

4. HQ only has a limited number of baddies, DKH will have stats for every KoW model.

I could go on and on but saying the new DKH is HQ is a gross over simplification.

tgmoore wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
So it's Heroquest?

I could go on and on but saying the new DKH is HQ is a gross over simplification.

your dealing with gamers, gross and oversimplified kinda of comes with the territory

Seriously though, you had me at zombie paladin

tgmoore wrote:

4. HQ only has a limited number of baddies, DKH will have stats for every KoW model.

So considering their stating every KoW unit for bad-guys is there any chance there will rules for using them a player characters? i.e: A ogre shooter with different stats as a hero instead of the standard elf archer.

 Rolt wrote:

tgmoore wrote:

4. HQ only has a limited number of baddies, DKH will have stats for every KoW model.

So considering their stating every KoW unit for bad-guys is there any chance there will rules for using them a player characters? i.e: A ogre shooter with different stats as a hero instead of the standard elf archer.

Obviously this is pure conjecture on my part. DKH in its current form is a competitive, scenario based dungeon battle game with two small squads facing off each other. Each player is equal in so much as it is not a Dungeon Master vs. player(s). Following that trend I don't think it would be out of line to allow players to use other units as player characters. But we will have to wait and see. It is encouraging to me that the "book of depravity" (working title) which is the advanced rules include in the game for the forthcoming DKH Dungeon Crawl is all about giving gamers options, depth of play, campaign continuity and character building.

From what I have read base game is an easy to learn intro or rules light dungeon crawler and the advanced game gives us something to sink our teeth into. The best part about it is its all in one box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:

tgmoore wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
So it's Heroquest?

I could go on and on but saying the new DKH is HQ is a gross over simplification.

your dealing with gamers, gross and oversimplified kinda of comes with the territory

Seriously though, you had me at zombie paladin

Gamer sees any fantasy themed dungeon crawler with miniatures and waves it off as Hero Quest. Well Hero Quest is great intro game for new or young players, and while lacking depth it isn't a bad game. HQ hasn't been in print for 20 years and used sets command high prices on ebay for what was a fairly common game. I'd say the time is ripe.

It is basically going to be heroquest is the short version for anyone with their finger hovering over the KS pledge button in 2 months time. :p

There will be a ton of extra stuff besides that (optional game mode, campaign and levelling rules, rules for a ton of monsters, supplement books), but if you want you can just play the basic prebuilt scenarios with the minis in the box.

Nothing wrong with going simple.

Simple in this case is good, especially when it can be expanded upon to become more complex.

Which do you think is going to go over easier with someone new to gaming- a more basic game like Heroquest or DKH, or something very rule heavy and complex like Myth?

Obviously there's room for both types of games, but we need a few more games with ease of access for the up and coming generations.

As the one who always had to read the rules, I don't think I would have been able to really get the rules to Myth at the age I received Heroquest.

DKH has very simple and efficient rules. My seven year old picked up on them quite quickly. As much as he likes Myth's components, he doesn't even want to come near it after I tried to slowly introduce it to him and all of its various mechanics.

I'm not even going to bother with Descent at his current age...

Descent is actually my primary concern with the new DKH game.

I'm not terribly fond of Descent for two reasons:

1. I always have to play the bad guy in games with my family, which means I can't pal around with them in the same way or coordinate strategies with them.

2. I don't care about winning so much, but I want tight, tense games that look like they could go either way. Games that encourage all players to be very careful with their choices, because there are real consequences for bad strategic decisions. When there's a reasonable chance that the heroes could lose, it feels like a real achievement when they win.

Descent bores me because it is too easy on the heroes. So whenever we play I have to be an evil punching bag, fulfilling the other player's power fantasies with paper tiger threats rather than engaging their minds with genuine challenges. The only way I can really threaten them is by singling out an individual hero and having all my evil forces gang up on him / her, because taking one player down disrupts the party's mutual support buffs. Problem is, this "strategy" makes the game a miserable experience for the player getting picked on, and understandably so.

So the fact that DKH will be all the hero players vs. one bad guy player is a big turn-off for me. My interest will depend on how seriously Mantic takes the alternative A.I. ways of playing the game. (And of course, whether that deck presents a genuine challenge.)

 Vermonter wrote:


So the fact that DKH will be all the hero players vs. one bad guy player is a big turn-off for me. My interest will depend on how seriously Mantic takes the alternative A.I. ways of playing the game. (And of course, whether that deck presents a genuine challenge.)

Mantic has already stated via the Open Day 2014 seminars that in the new DKH there will be both Heroes vs Dungeon Master and Co-Op players vs. the game (probably via event/monster cards). I am hoping based on the current DKH where two even sides face off vs each other that in the new game the Dungeon Master will be balanced in power with the players. This would create a true competitive game rather than merely being there to move the monsters around and move the story forward.

 tgmoore wrote:
Mantic has already stated via the Open Day 2014 seminars there will be both Heroes vs Dungeon Master and Co-Op vs. the game (probably via event/monster cards).

And I already stated my awareness of that fact, if you bother to read what I wrote.

I said my interest in the game would be how seriously that A.I. deck is taken. If it feels like a tacked on, underdeveloped variant for the "real" one vs. many game, I'm out.

 Vermonter wrote:

 tgmoore wrote:
Mantic has already stated via the Open Day 2014 seminars there will be both Heroes vs Dungeon Master and Co-Op vs. the game (probably via event/monster cards).

And I already stated my awareness of that fact, if you bother to read what I wrote.

I said my interest in the game would be how seriously that A.I. deck is taken. If it feels like a tacked on, underdeveloped variant for the "real" one vs. many game, I'm out.

No need to be snarky.

There is no other way to play that I know of. Its either players vs. Dungeon master or players vs. AI cards. What mechanic are you suggesting or wanting?

The current version of DKH is player vs. player in scenario driven games. So I hope to see some of that in the player vs. DM interaction.

Has anyone tried out Ares' Galaxy Defenders? I hope Thorton can come up with something comparable.

That's become my baseline for judging a game's AI. There are three levels (based on color of card and alien) of alien experience/ complexity. Each level has different stats and abilities, but also behaves different from each other, and reacts differently to the heroes. While a green (weak) one might prefer staying it's distance and attacking from range, a red (veteran) one might take the initiative and go on the offense, advancing and attacking, but also bringing supporting aliens along for the ride via its skills.

Interestingly enough, certain types of aliens (and even alien levels) will prioritize different targets.

They've also got a set of expansions coming up on Kickstarter at the end of the month, going full on X-Com and takign the battle to both the moon and the alien homeworld, but that's a whole other story...plus I'm sure the figure sculpts aren't up to most of Dakka's standards.

But yeah, if you want to see enemy AI done good, check out Galaxy Defenders.

 tgmoore wrote:

HQ hasn't been in print for 20 years and used sets command high prices on ebay for what was a fairly common game. I'd say the time is ripe.

Absolutely, if they didn't think so before, they probably took one look at how much the Gamezone had taken on their Heroquest KS in mere days (before it got pulled). There are other games out there on sale (Descent, the D&D boardgames etc.) but I still think there is a gap in the market that would no doubt be very profitable and also supply a lot of gamers with what they have been hoping for.

So, Tamburlaine was telling me today that there's pics of some of the new special undead from Dwarf King's Hold floating around. I thought I looked through all of the Open Day pictures, but I only recall seeing the one new zombie that looked like a regular townsperson. Does anyone have those pics of the other types?

From earlier in the thread, not sure if there are any others?



There was mention of armoured/paladin zombies and also dwarf zombies!

There's an undead troll..