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I could see (C:SM, at least) getting a few skyfire things. Maybe the Whirlwind, or Dreadnoughts. I could see the Whirlwind having an Anti-Air mode!

Not that I have any Whirlwinds. Maybe I'll buy Whirlwind Missile Launchers off Ebay and switch my Rhinos into Whirlwinds.

I hope the allies thing doesn't render single-race armies non-competitive.

Also what is the source of this information that everyone seems to have?

Tresson wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lysenis wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Allies is a stupid concept game balance wise but smart from a sales perspecitve. We all know which of those 2 considerations win when GW makes a decision.

It will be fun times seeing IG armies with Th/ss termis or purifiers sitting near their lines. Or draigowing armies with 90 boys as well. I just can't see a way this could work without absolutely breaking the armies theselves. If allies are allowed in tournaments i predict we will never see a pure 1 codex army win another thing ever again. (i mean sonme of the things I'm imaging are so broke, but hey at least my SM can finally take longfangs, and fast vindicators)

YES! Now my outflanking Baal Predator with a Flamestorm cannon (or normal version) will have a Storm Talon as Escort! That way I can have it flying in, Then I can have Necron warriors to back up my assault marines. . .


Shoot me now and get it over with. . . .

Will do, at least then we won't have to deal with your incessant whining and poor attempts at sarcasm

Can we do it to you as well so we don't have to listen to your near constant bashing of posters you disagree with?

Hey, he asked for it and I happily obliged. Don't get your panties in a bunch now

Griever wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:[
Going to agree with Noir here. Plus Sidstyler you're coming off as massively abrasive, you need to calm down.

Even if Gee Dubya started from the ground up like you said, people would still find something unbalanced and people like Sidstyler would whine that it took GW 4 years to balance everything that that they still messed up. Chess is really the only game that I can think of that is truly "balanced". However on the other hand it has no flavor.

I will take an imbalanced ruleset with lots of cool, fun storytelling opportunities versus something that is highly balanced but lacks any sort of "feel" behind it.

Also I find it funny that a lot of people who disliked 5th (like myself) are really looking forward to 6th, whereas many who seemed to enjoy 5th are dreading 6th. I'm just glad that 40k is returning to its roots as opposed to becoming bland and boring.

4th and 5th edition 40k were just fine, the games worked pretty well. The balance issues came in that they quite blatantly write codexes to make the newsst ones the strongers will all the best toys so that every wants to sell their old stuff and buy another army. I can live with that stuff, the basic deisng of the game worked well.

People who say balance doesn't matter are kidding themself. I'm sure your really "fun" army is a blast to play when you line up against an army that crushes you without losing a single model, just because of a bad matchup. That's the life of a 40k Dark Eldar player, you either get tabled or crush your oppoenent based on their list. That's not FUN for anybody, I've been on both sides of that game, nobody likes getting destroyed and most people don't like face rolling somebody in a game just because of a bad matchup.

Now that take, and then add in the fact that not only do you have to balance codexes against each other, you'll have to balance every posible combination of stupid units between codexes as well.

My 40k community is tiny. I'll show up to a local shop once a month and nobody else will be there, I'll sit for an hour before just driving 30 minutes back home. I can't afford to turn down games from the 50% of people who are just going to take the wackiest gak (Eldar + Dark Eldar) just because it looks fun and works well on the tabletop. But I also will not play them, because that's not how the 40k universe works in my head, and that was the only thing keeping me in the game.

I would have already switched to a different game by now, but nobody plays WarmaHordes either.

Guess I'll have to try my hand at fantasy, at least they haven't gone completely daft.

Let's not pretend that 4th and 5th were totally good game systems, because we both know that they weren't all that great.

Also I've heard that fantasy isn't much better so good luck on that, hope you enjoy it more! And I'm being totally serious. If you don't like something then there's no reason why you shouldn't switch. I luckily have a good group of friends so I don't worry about what you have to worry as much so it's good to see another POV

GalacticDefender wrote:I hope they come out with a paperback rulebook. I am not paying 75 dollars for a rulebook.

Based on the past, is a paperback rulebook generally released?

The starter set in about 3 month will have a small book, rules only.

If you play an Imperial army you should be just fine not taking allies, you already have everything you need in your own book.

Xenos on the other hand will have to ally, because not every xenos codex has access to psykers or flyers, can influence reserve rolls, etc.

Hell, I think some armies should feel obligated to take allies just to get those valuable extra HQ/Elites/FA/HS slots, even if they aren't from their own book.

I'm not extremely worried because my local meta is amazingly good: no razorspams, no long fang festivals, no Draigowing. I am confident that I will ride out whatever imbalances 6th edition brings until more codices and more experience with te new meta bring a new normalcy about.

But.

I know I am fprtunate in that regard. Hell, last tourney I played with some other club i saw several amazingly-painted Nid armies used by very cool people who regularly faced BA, SW and Necron onslaught regularly and seemed so excited about the new edition maybe letting them not always strike last in CC if the target is on terrain, or watching missiles devastate all of their best stuff.

Heck, a friend who just started the hobby and joined our club went Nids and is just finishing to paint his first army (and did a -way- better job than I did for my first army). I can imagine how they all feel being left out of the boat withall the cool stuff. And unlike Tau or DA, they don't even get to bring in allies to mitigate some of the fail.

It would be great for me if Dreadnoughts got skyfire... or at least, got it on a few of the weapons that they can take.

Formosa wrote:

Ah and there you have it "if someone turns up with imperial guard and dark eldar etc." you DONT hve to play them, its YOUR hobby, sit down with your mates/club and talk it out and come to an agreement

As to the "why should we fix our own game", simply because nothing is perfect, we (community) have beendoing this since 40k began, why stop now... i mean look at the Inat FAQ, this exiss mainly because GW are so half arsed, if they did a proper job in the first place then the INATFAQ wouldnt exist at all, also look at the massive amount of Rules lawering that goes on in 5th already...
all im trying to say is, if you dont like the way the game is going do something about it and try to organise something with your local meta groups, being lazy or apathetic about something never helps.

But your point is totally valid and i understand, i just dont dislike what i have seen to the extent you do

I didn't quote the whole multi-quote tree you guys had going, but I wanted to respond to a few points, so this is directed at the general conversation that you guys were having.

A better analogy than the one presented earlier is this: Alcohol is legal most everywhere. Some people also abuse this right and drive drunk, start fights, etc. Sometimes this has serious repercussions. However, we don't ban alcohol because of a few bad apples. Most people will behave as responsible adults. Those that don't will be removed from interacting with others should the group choose to do so, just as drunk drivers are removed from society on occasion for their actions. Everyone is free to do whatever they like, and sometimes they will get reprimanded for poor behavior. There will always be a small group who will abuse any ruleset no matter what the ruleset allows, but I'd rather not remove the ability of the many who will use it for personal enjoyment without negatively affecting those around them.

I feel the net lists and stuff that we can expect to see will push people's limits with allies quickly enough. The dude rolling up with GK/SW spam fest list should promptly expect to find himself sitting around with noone to play because most people don't want to play WAAC uber cheese.

Now when Formosa brings his Ravenwing to the imaginary shop where I also happen to play, I would love to play his Ravenwing with Stormraven list cause that's cool as hell. Just as I'm sure he'd be cool with me bringing my CSM/Chaos Daemons list that is not built to spam but rather to provide a means for building a fluffy Chaos army. I don't actually know Formosa, but I imagine we'd get along just fine and have a fun game.

Lukus83 wrote:Based on how powerful the new flier rules seem to be I am fully expecting either:

1. A wave of new releases for each faction over the next year or so - fliers for factions currently without and new units with Skyfire specifically.

2. A load of FAQ/errata granting Skyfire to specific units.

If not then it's Necrons as the new poster boys for GW. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only...Necron WARriors.

I still don't think flyers will be all that bad. I'm to much an optimist, however if the Finn is correct about flyer shannigans then I see two options.

1. Jump pack units can assault fliers and they get no defense from it.

2. Truelly competitive tourneys in the States will ban flyers. Why not since they appear to be worse then allies. I remember the steam tank being banned in fantasy for a while back in the day.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Joey wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Griever wrote:
The funniest part about this is that this new edition will actually make the game even more fun for competitive gamers,

I'd argue the other way around. The new allies system will quickly be broken down into a few utterly broken combinations that completely over centralize the game to the point where only those few combinations are truly viable, causing the game to stagnate into a boring mess.

Allies brings a lot of options to the table, and being able to augment your forces in such a way has a lot of potential to be really, really cool, but GW is being far too reckless in the implementation.

I will repeat for the billianth time that this is nonsense. I've not seen a single OP list that's actually legal with the rules, and not as strong as existant one-army lists.

Homework assignments, people! Get your two best armies (or only army) and write a list with the following FOC at 2000 points (NO ALLIES at first)

2-4 HQ
4-12 Troops
0-6 Elite
0-6 Fast
0-6 Heavy

See if you can make a 2000 point list that will reliably win objective based games. Looks like 5 out of 6 games rely on some sort of objectives, so we need an even less shoot-it-to-death mentality. (side-note: tervigon tyranids do really well on objective missions).

The list has to fit the FOC and points allotment. Then look and see what you could remove, and if adding something as an ally that WON'T aid you with special abilities (no blood chalices, etc) actually makes the list harder or softer.

Let's give it a month or three before declaring the new system broken. all armies have access, all armies have a chance to counter-punch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lou_Cypher wrote:Huh, these new allies rules interest me. Does this mean BFFs Eldar/Dark Eldar can have combinations like casting Fortune on Wyches and Vehicles, or Doom against people being assaulted by Incubi?

In a word, based on the 'allies of convenience' classification --no. You can doom the enemy, but you can't fortune wyches or guide trueborn.

According to the suposedly confirmed allies chart, Eldar / Dark Eldar are Battle Brothers / trusted allies / the closest buddies one.

Sidstyler wrote:If you play an Imperial army you should be just fine not taking allies, you already have everything you need in your own book.

Xenos on the other hand will have to ally, because not every xenos codex has access to psykers or flyers, can influence reserve rolls, etc.

Nah, I don't think GW would do that. Besides, some Xenos like Eldar already have their own Psykers and will probably get flyers. Early on allying might be a good idea, but as more codexes are updated it will get evened out. Also I might not even be taking any fliers. I don't really see how incredibly amazing they are. I'll hold on to my Leman Russes. Also Chaos has psykers.

Also I wonder if IG Valks will be considered fliers.

Homework assignments, people!

I already posted the IG army a page or two ago which would do absolutely brilliantly. 40 scoring IG models is easily enough at 2000 points when the fact remains they will table a vast majority of their opponents. If you don't think killing will play a large role you're only kidding yourself.

Here's a 2K Necron list for your entertainment. I think it goes rather well with the IG list that I posted. This one has allies, but just taking 5 or 6 Doom Scythes is so boring:

-Imotekh the Stormlord
-Chronotek
-Company Command Squad + Officer of the Fleet + 3 Flamers + Chimera Armoured Transport
-5 Warriors + Night Scythe
-5 Warriors + Night Scythe
-5 Warriors + Night Scythe
-5 Warriors + Night Scythe
-10 Veterans + 3 Meltaguns
-Vendetta + Heavy Bolters
-Doom Scythe
-Doom Scythe
-Doom Scythe
-Manticore

tuiman wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Based on how powerful the new flier rules seem to be I am fully expecting either:

1. A wave of new releases for each faction over the next year or so - fliers for factions currently without and new units with Skyfire specifically.

2. A load of FAQ/errata granting Skyfire to specific units.

If not then it's Necrons as the new poster boys for GW. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only...Necron WARriors.

1. I agree entirely, harpy model must be due for release soon, also its not fair on those who dont have flyers yet, chaos, tau, wolves etc

2. it's called the main rulebook every weapon and unit is redone to include the new rules, every single one, maybe why its so big

I think number one will be handled pretty quickly with the Aeronautica release from Forgeworld. I will bet my shirt they are legal in any game and give everyone rules for flyers.

As for the Eldar Dark Eldar alliance it is in the DE codex heh.

I also would not be suprised if the FAQ release had the option of AA mount for cheap.

Ovion wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Joey wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Griever wrote:
The funniest part about this is that this new edition will actually make the game even more fun for competitive gamers,

I'd argue the other way around. The new allies system will quickly be broken down into a few utterly broken combinations that completely over centralize the game to the point where only those few combinations are truly viable, causing the game to stagnate into a boring mess.

Allies brings a lot of options to the table, and being able to augment your forces in such a way has a lot of potential to be really, really cool, but GW is being far too reckless in the implementation.

I will repeat for the billianth time that this is nonsense. I've not seen a single OP list that's actually legal with the rules, and not as strong as existant one-army lists.

Homework assignments, people! Get your two best armies (or only army) and write a list with the following FOC at 2000 points (NO ALLIES at first)

2-4 HQ
4-12 Troops
0-6 Elite
0-6 Fast
0-6 Heavy

See if you can make a 2000 point list that will reliably win objective based games. Looks like 5 out of 6 games rely on some sort of objectives, so we need an even less shoot-it-to-death mentality. (side-note: tervigon tyranids do really well on objective missions).

The list has to fit the FOC and points allotment. Then look and see what you could remove, and if adding something as an ally that WON'T aid you with special abilities (no blood chalices, etc) actually makes the list harder or softer.

Let's give it a month or three before declaring the new system broken. all armies have access, all armies have a chance to counter-punch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lou_Cypher wrote:Huh, these new allies rules interest me. Does this mean BFFs Eldar/Dark Eldar can have combinations like casting Fortune on Wyches and Vehicles, or Doom against people being assaulted by Incubi?

In a word, based on the 'allies of convenience' classification --no. You can doom the enemy, but you can't fortune wyches or guide trueborn.

According to the suposedly confirmed allies chart, Eldar / Dark Eldar are Battle Brothers / trusted allies / the closest buddies one.

I think some of the Battle Brother like in this case should be looked at as, "were genetically the same so are stuff works on each other" and not "hey, lets go grab a beer".

With the starter set usually comes the paperback rulebook.

I think people are freakin out over nothing anyway. If you are a tournament player you are never going to see the allies anyway because they will be banned from tournament play by anyone with a brain.

As far as for friendly games if you don't want to play against some uber allies list then don't play them.

My gaming group has already declared Allies illegal in tourneys so I am not worried about it.

Does anyone think allies will still be viable after more updates and new units? I see a lot of people using allies at first, then I bet it will die off as new stuff is released.

Also how important will the psykers be? I really like just relying on my guns, will that still be a viable option?

Preferred enemy being re-roll ones to hit and to wound was a cool one for me, in both shooting and assault. Destroyers only having two shots on the gauss cannon makes more sense now.

Each destroyer is averaging 1.5 wounds ish on marine equivalents

GalacticDefender wrote:Does anyone think allies will still be viable after more updates and new units? I see a lot of people using allies at first, then I bet it will die off as new stuff is released.

Also how important will the psykers be? I really like just relying on my guns, will that still be a viable option?

It sounds like some of the new powers will be insanely powerful.

As for allies, as stated above, many armies will have to take allies just for the psychic support. And as I've also outlined, the FoC slots alloted by allies could prove to be invaluable.

For example, the Eldar already need as much heavy support as they can get. If they can get a fourth slot to fill that role, even if it comes from a different army, so long as it gets the job done, it'll be more than worth taking.

Reivax26 wrote:My gaming group has already declared Allies illegal in tourneys so I am not worried about it.

Jumping to conclusions much?

We need to see the full rules and surely have a few test games before deciding on something like that, if tournies stay at about 1850 so no double foc, then adding a few allie units I dont think will break the game, remeber you have to take the 1 hq 1 troop as a 'tax' and even above that, only 1 or each oh the others. Im sure you would not want to invest to many points in allies, just think of it as a few support units, to help your army. Finally there will probably be so many amazing good combinations, that each army will have a good counter. Just my 2 cents

I'm curious what becomes the new tournament standard in points.

We could see it go to 1999 to disallow a second FOC or jump up to 2500 to allow for some allies and use of the 2nd FOC.

Fafnir wrote:
It sounds like some of the new powers will be insanely powerful.

Like what? a melta gun? or a hallucination grenade? or allowing a unit proper shooting if you decide to charge it? Yeah, clinically insane in their power levels they are.

I'd be more than willing to bet that on a whole, the 2nd FoC will be avoided by the tournament scene. It just allows for far too many game-breaking combinations.

morgendonner wrote:I'm curious what becomes the new tournament standard in points.

We could see it go to 1999 to disallow a second FOC or jump up to 2500 to allow for some allies and use of the 2nd FOC.

How many tournies have been running at 2000 now?

I think 1850 should be a good balance, so no abusing the 2 foc shennanigans, but large enough so you can take your bastions or allies etc

I think 1850 should be a good balance,

1850 is what the tournaments here have been running and I can't see anything in the new rule set why the players and organisers would need to bump it any higher.

Apocalypse rules stat that pintle mounted weapons are AA guns, any news of something of the sort in the new set?

Even land raiders can have pintle mounted multi meltas, guard armies have plenty as well.

They both might have even more tools to deal with flyers than other armies, but that's the advantage of imperial armies I guess.

Forgeworld better have plenty of FAQ's ready for launch next week, I have tons of questions for them!

The problem is, some armies need the extra FoC's to be more competitive. Quite a few armies really, really want those extra slots, because the transition from 1750/1850 to 2000 yields poor unit choices, while other armies can keep taking exactly what they want.

I know Dark Eldar and Tau suffer from this a lot. Most dark eldar 'competitive' lists take hellions/reavers not because they really want them, its because they've maxed their troops, heavy support, elites, etc. (with cheap venoms!).

The majority of the tournaments I have gone in the NE and SE have been 2K over the last several years.

Would someone with a reddit account please post in that thread asking about Heavy Vehicles/Deep Striking/Ordnance Shooting? Basically, I want to figure out if it is once again viable to Deep Strike my Monolith onto the board without worrying about it never getting to the battlefield, or if the the only benefit that tactic got is the slightly less lethal mishap table, and if it can fire all of its guns while moving or if the ordnance rule still prohibits that.