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 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

no one ever said competing with custodes, they said COMPLIMENTING Custodes.

I'm still EXTREMELY happy with my admech battalion. The arquebus snipe out important heroes, the dunecrawler(s) provide some much needed high damage. They lack the CP farm abilities, but I have a strong feeling theyre looking at changing those items anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

no one ever said competing with custodes, they said COMPLIMENTING Custodes.

XD I was obviously too tired when I read that

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

So something bad happens once? I think I'll take my chances on my odds.

 Ordana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

actually space wolves do have ignore over watch to a degree. heroic interventions are NOT subject to over watch.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
For fun you can do whatever you want.

For competitive. I don't see how SW's complement Custodes. They don't provide much to mitigate Custodes weaknesses.

Wolves are competing with blood angels, not custodes.

Custodes are out of cycle as they match up worse against knights than smash captains do, though some people are still making them work at the competitive level.

SW\s cant compete with BA.
No 3d6 charge, no extra attacks, no ignore overwatch no redeploy and no normal scouts.

Custodes need help killing Knights that is true. But I still like a Custodes outrider detachment and dropped my BA detachment for a Castellan to help with Knights and provide long range firepower
Custodes outrider + IG battery + Knight.

Sadly havn't had a chance to try it out against a Knight list tho.

actually space wolves do have ignore over watch to a degree. heroic interventions are NOT subject to over watch.

I think opponent will move stuff you want to ignore away or shoot you first rather than let that easily happen

Also if you go within 6" but don't charge one could say overwatch did it's job already...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Ignoring Overwatch is very useful; I wish I'd had that ability when I charged my Shield Captain into Shadowsword (I was throwing everything at it and thought the Captain would be able to soak up the damage with a re-rollable 3++) only for him to be vaporised by defensive gunners.

So something bad happens once? I think I'll take my chances on my odds.

The point was that there are things in this game that have Overwatch that is almost as powerful as their shooting (IG tanks with defensive gunners, anything Tau, flamers, etc.); it would be best to have some way of ignoring such an overwatch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Have fun charging a Hemlock without ignore overwatch.

 Ordana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ignoring Overwatch is very overrated and only necessary for the Flamer knight which, surprise surprise, gets no use for the most part.

Have fun charging a Hemlock without ignore overwatch.

We've already done the math that says a 3++/5+++ Shield Captain on a bike can probably survive the overwatch from a Valiant. Victor of the Blood Games+a command re-roll means you have a decent chance of taking no wounds from a Hemlock.

Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

Iago40k wrote:
Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

I haven't used twin illastrus culverins on the telemon however I have used the calladius grav tank and had good success with that, which is 5 points more expensive and much less survivable (not to mention less shots) than a telemon with dual culverin so I can only imagine good things

Bananarama wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Had a game yesterday with my Custodes/AdMEch Stygies list and testet the Telemon. Not bad not bad. I was running a Knight Crusader beforehand but since its pretty obvious that CP farming will get nerfed and I practice for the Alliance Open GT where they already nerfed CP farming, the Knight got kicked out of the list because its way too CP intense. Now. I tested the Telemon dropping in with the 20 shots S7. He killed 2 units of Hive Guard pretty handily (over 2 turns) but the S7 sucks against the big bugs. Also -1 is just crap. So I was thinking taking the S8 weapon. Anyone got experience with it? The Telemon is basically my "drop in and kill what I cant get to in melee" unit since I run a lot of infiltrating E-Priests and Dragoons with my Custodes^^

I haven't used twin illastrus culverins on the telemon however I have used the calladius grav tank and had good success with that, which is 5 points more expensive and much less survivable (not to mention less shots) than a telemon with dual culverin so I can only imagine good things

Yeah they rock - S8 is such an important stat point vs 7, that and the extra AP more than make up for the reduced amount of shots, at a cheaper point cost for some reason. The Telemon is a beast of a shooty platform that can only really be efficiently neutered by tarpitting - the T8 2+ 4++ and a -1 banner to hit really limits any shooting directed at thim. When you're playing pure Custodes, forcing enemies to come to you is always a good thing. A must take in any pure Custodes force that is looking to be a true TAC list IMO.

One note on tarpitting - a shooty Telemon is a great candidate for the Unflinching stratagem. All that dakka hitting on 5s for overwatch can dissuade pretty much anything aside from a big infantry mob. On my last game my DG/Nurgle opponent attempted to charge mine with a couple of plague drones and a bloat-drone. After I used the stratagem and the plague drones got pasted he quickly reconsidered sending in the bloat drone.

the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Audustum wrote:

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Thats why you keep him in reserve, drop him in your deployment t1, open up on your priority targets. If you go second his smashcaptains will either have to reserve until t2, reducing their effectiveness, or redirect into other targets. Same goes for the castellan, they'll have to hit another target. Either way you're getting at least one round of shooting off with it.

The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

Meatgrinder wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Meatgrinder wrote:

stratigo wrote:
the problem with the telemon is that is still is a big target. A smash captain will kill it. Any army with a castellan will probably kill it. I imagine a eldar based army will probably kill it. All within a turn or two.

Deep strike it. Bring it in t1 whether you go first or second and let it do its work.

So I just did the math and then accidentally erased the post, but the answer is this:

Optimized Captain Slamguinus 1-shots a Telemon.

Optimized Castellan 1-shots a Telemon.

'Average' Slamguinus or the -1 to Hit Flag means it takes 2 rounds to kill the Telemon. So he won't get to do much before kaboom.

Thats why you keep him in reserve, drop him in your deployment t1, open up on your priority targets. If you go second his smashcaptains will either have to reserve until t2, reducing their effectiveness, or redirect into other targets. Same goes for the castellan, they'll have to hit another target. Either way you're getting at least one round of shooting off with it.

Slamguinus is waiting till T2 anyway because of the beta reserves rule. He also doesn't mind staying in reserve for as long as your Telemon does cause he's less than half the Telemon's cost. He's already helping just by making you hide.

The Castellan really doesn't care if you shoot him first. He's VERY unlikely to even be bracketed by the Telemon's shooting and has Machine Spirit Resurgent for 1CP even if he is.

Ultimately, it's not really cost effective to drop 300+ points on a model for 1-2 rounds of shooting unless it's some REALLY good shooting (which he's only slightly above mid-tier).

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

Every list that remotely matter will have their Castellan as Raven because it literally doubles its firepower through 1 stratagem.

The main problem is that if the Telemon was super good, you’d bring three of them. It’s a model that works better in mass

That said we are, as usual, falling into the trap of myopic focus on the very best lists in the game, and most games it’s going to work out fine as part of the army

But competetively, its natural predator is going to wreck it for less than half the price. Slam captains suppress the use of heavy armor. You either rock cheap gun platforms like ravagers or go straight to super heavies. The knight meta make that even tougher as every army is gearing to take out 1 to 4 knights in a game at the competetive level. The telemon just isn’t as hard a target as a knight

 Ordana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The slam captain won’t always be optimized, but the castellan will

not really as an optimzied castellan requires you to be running a specific knight house hold. and not everyone will choose to do that

Every list that remotely matter will have their Castellan as Raven because it literally doubles its firepower through 1 stratagem.

Except not everyone runs a list like that. yes the WAAC types might but thats not every list.

Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

no he's absolutely right, this kind of rediculas over the top stuff isn't the way most people play. sure it's worth ntoing that someone could take over powered unit X and that it's worth pondering ways to handle it, but a statement like "EVERYONE WILL RUN X THIS WAY" is silly.

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Re a Slam Captain or a Castellan, you could say the same thing about pretty much anything in the game.

No, you really can't. Almost any other Imperial Knight sporting the Ion Bulwark trait will fair significantly better. Artillery squads are also a good alternative because they're generally lower cost than even Captain Slammy so they aren't worth his time or capable of playing LoS shenanigans on the Castellan (and also being low point value and thus not worth his time).

Comparing anything Custodes have to tryhard WAAC netlists spamming OP units that are 99 percent likely to be nerfed in the next 2 weeks has no relevance unless you frequent GTs *puke*, or have a particularly toxic local community who play to the same loft standards. Certainly not a good measure of general effectiveness.

Funnily enough most people in the real world like to play their models as they are painted, in armies that make sense thematically and are a fair matchup vs their opponent. I pity those poor sods who don't.

Well aren't you a cheery, accepting sort of person. I hope others are more kind to your favored modes of play than you are to theirs. Generally, tactical advice is given on the consideration that your opponent is running an 'optimal' list and making minimal mistakes. This is because if you are facing opponents with unoptimized lists and/or who make many mistakes, you can basically work around any deficiency in your own list with pure skill (i.e. raise your skill ceiling to overcome the gap). When facing optimal lists and skilled opponents, however, you need to bring tools that can get their value even against the opponent's preparation. That is something people might need help analyzing and what we can contribute as fellow players in a tactical replay without having to analyze a batrep in order to aid a player in increasing his/her skill ceiling.

With that attitude, I don't think Custodes are the best choice for your needs. Better everyone just bring a Castellan, 2 Slam Captains and a Catachan Brigade to play it safe. That's the epitome of internet tactical analysis right now.

-----

Talking seriously though, what else would you recommend for Custodes against this stuff if we need to be so worried about it? If Slammy isn't coming in to kill a 310 point Telemon hes coming in to kill a 270 point Vertus Praetor Squad instead. Its still gonna be a massive win for your opponent either way, and thats the only other really solid unit option for Custodes. Your post is only useful in proving that Custodes are not top dog in the power rankings at the moment, which probably 90% of people here already know.