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Hi all

From the start, this is NOT a slur or criticism on ANYBODY's work or ideas

That said, I'm very confused over presentations of converting projects particularly ones involving the new 'old' Conversion Beamer

I know of at least four past incarnations of GW designed and released pieces of kit...

The RT cone shaped shoulder fired one, the old Chaos one, the Space Crusade hand held one, and the Space Crusade Dreadnought one.

I now see, with the release of the new C:SM, a new character - MotF, who can have a Conversion Beamer (or a Bolt Pistol and a full servo harness) and can also be on a bike.

The confusion exists when I see members creating interesting objects and weapons and calling them Conversion Beamers.

Since an approved and authorised Conversion Beamer model exists (although old and hard to find) surely a "conversion" would use some bitz to approximate the hard to obtain one. Why are members providing us with pieces that are well made, well designed, well painted, but look nothing like any of the four such models that they are representing.

Personally, I am using the Space Crusade hand held piece attached to a servo harness with all other weapons removed (to comply with the Codex) and the larger Space Crusade Dreadnought piece to be mounted on the rear of a bike.

I know, every one to their own, i'ts just confusing in the world of hobby making.

To me, what's important is that the "counts as" piece of equipment doesn't look like a different piece of already extant equipment. I mean, the conversion beamer shouldn't look like a plasma gun or something.

It would be nice to make it look like an official model, but the previous models vary in look and are old enough that many players (including me) would not remember them anyway.

The new scuplt that will arrive may well not resemble the originals which haven't been around now in over 15 years.

Very true and a valid point, however, there has been a LOT of posts on various blog sites with the question "what is a CB" or "what does a CB look like" and on every thread there is a reply post with pictures of the aforementioned four incarnations.

"Counts as" is for standard FOC games (this is really a Basilisk but it 'counts as' a Griffon because I can't afford a FW one), however, in Apocalypse games it is 'wysiwyg' if you havn't got one - then you don't have one.

Further, I believe that the true use of "counts as" is in the situation such as... I have an Iron Fists scout sgt who 'counts as' Tellion (who is of course a UM character).

Now please don't get me wrong, there is a case for designing a piece of kit and calling it a 'doodah weapon' and it's stats are 'counts as CB' but obviously is NOT a CB and as such must comply with opponent approval or a GW approved FAQ.

Of course, this entire thread and anyones similar notion, including the 'counts as' designers, is null and void if GW released a MotF, complete with the new and improved CB, next week.

I guess you're not going to like my Squat "counts as Space Marines" then?

Not unless they have spent a very long time on a very heavy gravity planet and they have genetically mutated to compensate...

Actually, thats a very plausable back story.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with any situation, I suppose in reality, I must be a hobby nazi...

To me 'converting' means - looks very much like an existing something... and 'counts as' does not.

So to avoid 'confusion', you have decided to use the Conversion Beamers you got in a totally different game system? Surely they are the least 'official' versions out of all?

Space Crusade was designed by GW and released through Milton Bradley as an introduction game to the world of WH40K prior to the release of 2ed... can't get more official than that.

The game had actual Space Marines in it, not 'counts as' and the blue ones were real Ultramarines, etc

So no confusion there...

I think that in the 2nd ed wargear book there is a picture that most closely resembles the space crusade version. That would make it the most 'official' version out of all?

Even if a "official" conversion beamer model was released, people would still make their own, and they would look completely different to the "official" model.

Its a hobby about modelling too y'know. People don't like how the model looks so they make their own version. They put alot of effort into their creation (whether it looks good or not) and i see no reason why they should be forced to adhere to the official look of things.

Deffkoptas have a offical model, but does that mean players should be discouraged from making their own versions? (ive seen some damn cool hot air balloon deffkoptas)

And after making these models why should they not use them? As long as they reasonabley resemble what they are standing in for (and that is EXTREMELY subjcetive btw)

If we all stuck to the way things are "supposed" to look like, then bar posing, conversions would lose alot of creativity.

And the next thing you know we are playing "Warhamclix"


TL;DR - creativity should be encouraged, the conversions you mention don't even sound that bad, don't be mr grumpy

i dont see what the problem is. as long as the person im playing doesnt have a bolter or something ridiculous still saying uh yea thats my conversion beamer. they honestly DONT have an offical mini IMO. they made squats and totally forgot about them, they still have the old codex for them somewhere, but you really think ill let someone play as squats using those "official" rules? now way. sure they made the minis your talking about, but that was forever ago. me personally i think the old ass minis look too weird to be played with still. go ahead and make one as long as it looks different then do it

Again, very true and a valid comment... but, creativity (and true 'converting' as well) is to take a pile of string and wax and other odds and end bitz and present a striking and brilliant or crap and vague but accurate representation of whatever.

Whereas to design an awesome 10 wheel, stunning with 50 guns, and all in a silver tower and say it 'counts as' a Land Raider is haveing fun doing what you want... but that's not acceptable in a game with certain set parameters and rule conventions.

But. Enough said... In either option, at the moment FOC WILL allow any contraption and Apocalypse wysiwyg WILL NOT (and a back door excuse at the moment - there is no CURRENT model to set the record straight)

So, I've got my concerns off my chest... The Mods can close this thread if need be.

Thanx for listening and as I said, there was never any intention to criticise or upset anyone.

There is only one problem with your idea that counts as works in normal 40k and not in Apoc. In Apoc anyone can make there own datasheet for a creation of their own making. Take my Ultramarines Strike Fighter with twin-linked Assault Cannons and 3 twin linked bolters as an example. For an Apoc game I can make a force org sheet for my strike fighter and I have already done so and used it in various apoc games. Guess what! There is no real model or even fluff to support that the Ultramarines have such a craft, but its still legal for me to play it in Apoc. Same goes for anyones weird and wonderful "Conversion Beamer super barreled, reverse hinged, gyro stablised rig" which just happens to have a datasheet listing requires MotF without servo harness for 120pts and the stats are the same as the conversion beamer and voila you have a perfect acceptable user created model ready to play with in an Apoc game.


Sounds like Apoc uses the "counts as" rule to an even greater degree through the use of the datasheet rule to me.

Lord Castellan Mik wrote:Again, very true and a valid comment... but, creativity (and true 'converting' as well) is to take a pile of string and wax and other odds and end bitz and present a striking and brilliant or crap and vague but accurate representation of whatever.

Whereas to design an awesome 10 wheel, stunning with 50 guns, and all in a silver tower and say it 'counts as' a Land Raider is haveing fun doing what you want... but that's not acceptable in a game with certain set parameters and rule conventions.

But. Enough said... In either option, at the moment FOC WILL allow any contraption and Apocalypse wysiwyg WILL NOT (and a back door excuse at the moment - there is no CURRENT model to set the record straight)

So, I've got my concerns off my chest... The Mods can close this thread if need be.

Thanx for listening and as I said, there was never any intention to criticise or upset anyone.

Er, wow.

I think you might just need to relax a bit.

I mean, just a little!

Some of the things you're actually worried about happening ("an awesome 10 wheel, stunning with 50 guns, and all in a silver tower and say it 'counts as' a Land Raider") simply are not going to because someone has 'jumped the gun' and converted up a Conversion Beamer before (IF!) GW releases the 'official' model...

Lord Castellan Mik wrote:Whereas to design an awesome 10 wheel, stunning with 50 guns, and all in a silver tower and say it 'counts as' a Land Raider is haveing fun doing what you want... but that's not acceptable in a game with certain set parameters and rule conventions.

But. Enough said... In either option, at the moment FOC WILL allow any contraption and Apocalypse wysiwyg WILL NOT (and a back door excuse at the moment - there is no CURRENT model to set the record straight)

So, I've got my concerns off my chest... The Mods can close this thread if need be.

Chill man, it's just a game, people's idea's of 'set parameters and rule conventions' differ a LOT.

Common sense dictates that what people choose to make their conversion beamers look does not have to be confined to their appearance on models from the early '90s.

Lord Castellan Mik wrote:But. Enough said... In either option, at the moment FOC WILL allow any contraption and Apocalypse wysiwyg WILL NOT (and a back door excuse at the moment - there is no CURRENT model to set the record straight)

I call shenanigans. What constitutes an "Official model"? One made by GW(of which there is no Conversion Beamer currently) or one ever made by GW(Which would include two sets of models not allowed to be spoken of to GW staff at events, as well as 2 "races" that GW says don't look the way they do). Also, I see set no rules of WYSIWYG in Apocalypse(the book itself has a Train engine that, *gasp*, counts as a Land Raider), this is just a bit too hard-lined(and tight-arsed) on something that has no current, readily available model.

It also highlights some of the gak ork players whose lovingly converted wonderful battlewagons will no longer be legal in the eyes of some people once the "official model" is released. I know that I for one will not be switching to the new model. And I'm betting that Tournament organizers will be ok with my scratch builds too.

This is not aimed as a critique of the OP, but it does illustrate that we are not all in the game for the same reason. Some people love models and converting and painting them, but putting them on a table and rolling dice and shouting loudly so that everyone in the store looks at you like you are a freak is only an optional way of showing off their creations. Others rarely bother with glue or primer and just want to play a really expensive board game. And then there are the rest of us who enjoy both parts of the hobby to some extent or another and find gratification in both gaming and modeling.

My comment to the OP is if you think that conversion beamers should only look like the ones GW has produced then model them that way, but give others who either have different but reasonable ideas credit and props for doing it their way. In the end as long as the modeling is not done to be a git(you know grots on 60mm bases, wall rhinos, etc) then take it in stride.

In a universe that only knows war the industry standards commitee was removed from the imperial budget.

Meph

Mephistoles1 wrote:
In a universe that only knows war the industry standards commitee was removed from the imperial budget.

Meph

Amen brother!

I don't understand the problem.

I have an IC model with a wierd gun that looks nothing like anything else in the game. I tell you it's a Dark Age weapon that functions as a Conversion Beamer.

What's the problem?

Mephistoles1 wrote:It also highlights some of the gak ork players whose lovingly converted wonderful battlewagons will no longer be legal in the eyes of some people once the "official model" is released.

Is this another shot at the WC and their LOS-blocking rollerskate signboards?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mephistoles1 wrote:It also highlights some of the gak ork players whose lovingly converted wonderful battlewagons will no longer be legal in the eyes of some people once the "official model" is released.

Is this another shot at the WC and their LOS-blocking rollerskate signboards?

Let's not take that line of enquiry any further.

OK. I withdraw the question.

There is no "current" model for the conversion beamer.
The last one was for late Rogue trader (when the chaos heavy weapon sprue dates to). Given that the stats for this weapon are also very different, it's as current as zoats are.

When (not if) Gw release a new MoF model (they will. their job is selling minis, not writing rules - as evidenced by their ham-fisted attempts at producing them), it's a fair bet that although it may share some roots with the original design, it will look different again.

This hobby consists of equal parts 'the game' and 'the modelling and painting'. To many, the modelling an painting take priority. To others, the models are merely pieces, akin to chess pieces (and they don't bother painting them either).
Take a chill pill and relax. It's only a game.