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Right, this is an attempt to discuss peoples considerations when they decide that any given model or unit either isn't to their taste, or not financially viable, and go down the time honoured route of kit bashing and scratch building something more suiting their tastes and/or budget.

I'll give you my own thought process as an example, and also a by now infamous example we've all read about on these boards...

Earlier this year, I embarked on my most ambitious project to date, namely converting myself a Savage Orc Warboss riding a Wyvern. The inspiration for this came from a discussion about my fledgling army, back when all I had was a single unit of Savage Orcs. Discussing with a gaming buddy the options for my General, and admiring his converted Wyvern, I eventually decided to copy his basic plan, with a little style and panache more suiting an Orc who just can't stop fighting. The Wyvern body came from the High Elf Dragon Kit, with the head and tail taken from the Wyvern. This was pretty straight forward. But the Warboss himself, well I had already decided, applying good Orcy sense, that the only way to prevent him from leaping off it's back into combat, would be to strap him in somehow. So now I have a Converted Wyvern, with the Warboss tied underneath it's neck. Turned out really well, and as soon as I can find my Camera, I shall supply pics.

So, the end result, style wise, is a model which is most definitely unique, and more or less of my own doing. This is something I am extremely proud of, though I don't let that hold me back from barrelling him into the enemy Generals unit to crack some heads (yeah. Hasn't always worked that well thus far, but he's always got his man. Usually shortly before heading for the hills or getting chopped into tiny little pieces). But gaming wise, I have wound up with a Flank double it's normal size. But hey, it looks good, and generally flanking isn't a problem. At least not yet.

But then there are the Bloodcrushers that have caused so much hoo-ha from the 'Ard Boyz Tournament. From what I've read, these were relatively straight forward conversions of the plastic Bloodletters on steeds. Now, I don't know which steeds were used, as that hasn't been revealed to my knowledge. Now, fair enough, it seems this has mainly been done with monetary intentions. Getting a few plastic horses and bunging a Bloodletter on them is a whole world cheaper than buying up the Bloodcrusher kits.

However, I find this conversion slightly suspect all the same. To my mind, a conversion should be at least as impressive as the available model, in terms of bulk and look. A Bloodletter on a Horsie just isn't as threatening as one running about on a Juggernaught, I think you'll agree. But, hey, fair enough I suppose. It's his army, and he can do as he wishes in terms of how it looks. That is actually an important part of the Hobby many sadly miss out on. However, the bases were apparently too small, which does cause a problem, as now the unit is harder to spot etc, and with TloS being an imporant part of the rules, they have now gained an arguably unfair advantage.

And it's not just this nameless person at fault. In my time, I have seem some real chin scratchers. Like Chip's little girl Daemon prince. Yep, thats right, he though it was funny to use a model of a little girl as his Daemon Prince because, hey, the rules don't state exactly how a Daemon Prince should look (this was using the original 3rd Chaos Codex!). No, true. But then, an opponent is likely to underestimate such a model. It simply isn't as threatening as it's profile suggests it should be. Is this cheating? Well, yes and no. I'd say yes, but then, it wasn't exactly against the rules. Had I done it, I'd have had her standing upon a mound of corpses, with bloodied hands. That suggests what the model is capable of.

So how do you plan your conversions? Do you even worry about such things as base size etc, or do you just plough ahead, letting your artistic license flourish?

Generally I try for at least the size of a comparable model (ie a looted wagon should be at least the size of a russ) and if I want to go bigger I do so (usually bigger is not better in 40K). My BW for example with the deff rolla on it is 12" long and 5 inches wide. And it used to be a double-decker. Even with the old LOS rules and area terrain you couldn't hide the damn thing.

Conversions of non-vehicles should be done using the existing base size if known IMHO. Otherwise you end up with stuff gaining advantages/disadvantages. If you want to make a grot sized demon prince, mount it on a large base with lots of scenic crap - makes for a more interesting model and also doesn't give you any unfair "advantage" (though honestly, any advantage gained is usually going to be pretty small, but if the DP is so small that it's easy to hide, you just managed to keep it alive a lot longer).

A conversion or substitute model which is completely unlike the original might be considered to be a fraud in terms of WYSIWYG.

My conversions are vehicles, in fact they are kit-bashes of historical vehicles in place of GW vehicles. I try to match the dimensions of the GW vehicle. It is impossible since GW vehicles are very distorted but at least I pick kits which are similar in size.

I do not complain about anyones taste in conversions but in a tournament I would ask them to replace the model or place their model on an appropriate sized empty base, again only because of the slowed LoS rules.


How about people that use all crouching position models and shelf the standing ones....

I really don't worry about it to honest. I think that the current obsession with WYSIWYG is a marketing ploy on GW's part to be ignored whenever possible.

Anybody who's going to go to all the trouble to convert up something with the express purpose of winning games isn't going to be much fun to begin with, so who cares what they've done, they're still a pain.

OTOH, anybody who's doing conversions probably has a decently painted army, which puts them head and shoulders above the Black Primer Army of Doom that seems to be the favored paint scheme a lot of places I play.

Here's the criteria that I use for my conversions:

1. Must fit the fluff - otherwise, why convert?

2. Must look cool - gaming considerations otherwise. This usually results in something that is oversized, or has a ridiculous action pose and/or scenic base.

3. Base model that the conversion is based on must be a comparable model (i.e. at least same class, size, and type)! One player that I had the chance to play against made a really awesome "Gundam" inspired Falcon conversion. It had all the right guns, but as a "robot" it was mounted on a 60mm base, and had no obvious embark/disembark spots for troops, and provided a huge advantage in terms of hiding (in 4th Ed), as it traded horizontal frontage for height - this also alowed the tank to shoot over obstacles it normally couldn't. While not knocking the quality of the conversion -it was really cool looking, but I found it extremely unsporting to play against - and the conversion would have been much better representing a wraithlord (which he had converted from smaller robots).

4. It positively must be mounted on a regulation size base (or larger). For me it is usually larger, due to the aforementioned "coolness" factor and/or scenic base.

IMO, as long as the model is lovingly converted and not an obvious "modelling" advantage gimme, I do not have a problem with it.

Me personally, I have a rough tendancy to make things tourney legal. That's really about the only hard, fast rule that I can say I hold to. It's sub-concious, but it's the biggest guiding prinncipal I have. Beyond that, every model conversion I do has it's own driving forces. Money used to be the big one. These days, it's because I think I can do better, or I know I can.

I made myself some plastic Kans and Dread that ended up being about twice as big as their official metal version. I don't think anybody would mind, cause they look to me to be exceptionally Orky.

When converting, I'm firmly in the "let my imagination run" category. I do, however, ALWAYS use the correct base size or LARGER.
I will, without though, go up in base size, but NEVER down. That is important.

With opponents, I'm of the same mind. A cool conversion is more important than meeting the exact size of the model you're replacing...to a degree, of course. The "little girl" Daemon Prince would have annoyed me for targeting purposes. it would have felt like a cheat.

I'm pretty okay with it.
It's one of GWs strongpoints that they encourage converting. I'm not much good at it, but I love a clever conversion.
Proper base size is a must, and roughly the same size is a plus.
Because of Howard A. Treesong's thread I've started a Squat force based on warmachine and scrunt minis, so tourney legal isn't a big deal for me. Ireland isn't exactly brimming with official events anyway.

Well thats the thing.

For example, one of my opponents is playing Daemons at the moment in Fantasy, and really needs to add some muscle to his line. To this end, he is now experimenting with Bloodletters, and is considering Bloodcrushers. However, he likes the 'Letters, but not the Crushers. The rest of his army is largely Slaanesh, so one idea would be to re-create the Pleasureseekers from Storm of Chaos (Daemonettes on Boobworms) mounted on appropriate base. Stylistically, this ticks the box, and size wise, it's a close enough match. Add in it will look suitably different from the rest of the force, and all is well. Just has to get the bits together!

Mad Doc, the thing you said that bother me is this:
"To my mind, a conversion should be at least as impressive as the available model"

My green stuff skills are pathetic. Still I convert models, or at least I try. I don't see myself sculpting something "at least as impressive as the available model".
Sorry, I'll keep on playing with green stuff even if you dont like it...

Your rant on minuscule deamon prince, or model with base smaller than the proper one is, of course, a good point.

I didn't say owt about sculpting. The only thing I can greenstuff is my fingers, and that is never something I do intentionally!

I'm more talking about Kitbashes, as I believe the Americans call them. Even so though, I just don't see the point in not making your Conversion as impressive as you possibly can. It's the showing off piece of your army, aimed at inspiring both jealousy, awe, admiration and inspiration in your opponent, shortly before he makes a point of killing it in as humiliating a fashion as possible.

Take another piece I did. I can actually claim to have sort of ish invented the Soul Grinder. I wanted a Daemon Prince with Daemonic Speed in my Iron Warriors army, so went to town fusing a Defiler and a Daemon Prince model. Thankfully I worked for GW at the time so expense wise, nobody felt the need to take my temprature. The end result was suitably satisfying, though I never did get round to painting it, and now I can't find the Daemon Prince torso.

By 'impressive' I think I mean more in terms of scale and battlefield presence than 'whoa man!'. For example, a Soulgrinder can, feasibly, be converted up from *any* vehicle hull (says so in the background, even though defilers are conveniently preferred!). So, yeah, you could make it from vehicle with suitable gribbly adornments. But to use say, and Orky Trakk or Buggy, or a Space Marine Bike, would be a suspicious conversion to say the least, given that the things main weakness is it's sheer size. I think it's fair to say that in most cases, any scratch build or kitbash which makes it significantly smaller can be viewed as a sly attempt at cheating....

So yeah, going up in size is fine, your really only hurting yourself (my Defiler-Prince once got ganked by no less than 15 Terminators who proceeded to pull all his legs off and ram them up his chuff)...but going smaller...hmmm...suspicious to say the least.

I'm currently working on an Ork Trukk conversion. It's a Wave Serpent converted into a hot rod / pirate ship. My original plan was to put a rokkit launcher in the crow's nest, but it occurred to me that elevating my weapon would give me an unfair LOS advantage. I decided to install the weapon on the rail somewhere so as not to take unfair advantage.

For a gaming miniature, I think that the ethical thing to do is take possible rules advantages and disadvantages into account when planning your conversion. Try to avoid them if possible. Obviously, the only "100% safe" answer is to never do conversions, but that's not an option, IMO. Just make a reasonable effort to keep base sizes the same or larger, make vehicles roughly the same size as they should be, and avoid potentially game-deforming things like huge, LOS-blocking placards or guns on the top of big masts and such.

I'm currently working on an Ork Trukk conversion. It's a Wave Serpent converted into a hot rod / pirate ship. My original plan was to put a rokkit launcher in the crow's nest, but it occurred to me that elevating my weapon would give me an unfair LOS advantage. I decided to install the weapon on the rail somewhere so as not to take unfair advantage.

I think it's incredibly fair-minded of you to not do it for that reason.
I think you're right, though. It would've looked cool.

In the long run, though, you might've been hurting yourself anyway, since you have to measure range from the weapon. LOL Much of your range would've been eaten up by the height.

LOL I can see it now:
"I'm going to target that lone Boy right in front of me."
"What? Why not pick a juicier target?"
"Because he's the only thing in range, except for my own hull."

Eric

As long as they look cool and are the approximate size (and it is easy to remember what they are) I am good with it.

As to the mention of bloodletters on regular horses - I don't like this because it is misleading. Horses are cavalry, juggers aren't. It is also much smaller, but that is easily gotten around by the base.

I'm a pretty big fan of "counts as", because it lets me field the army that looks the way *I* want it to.

If you go into my website (40k/Guard), you'll see that I do a lot of armor re-work, mostly converting goofy GW Tanks into more serious Assault Guns of some sort. I'll usually match weapons and basic chassis to some extent. But I do the conversions because I don't need to worry about in-game issues.

I've got a major Baneblade conversion in progress which will likely end up to be a Shadowsword similar to the existing Russ conversions (no pics yet, tho), and I think it'd be good to do a Hellhound conversion similar to my Demolishers.


Parallel to this, I'm working on Defiler conversions (40k/CSM) that trim the model down considerably. Still working on them, and likely to need even more work.

If I ever get around to them, I'll knock together a couple counts as Warhounds to match the Defilers.


As far as base size (hull footprint) goes, I guess I'm about the same (+/- 5%), but I typically have a much lower vertical profile, based on pseudo-military design.


In WFB, base size matters, so my "counts as" Pegasus will be on standard size base. But this is well down the road, as WFB is going to stay on the back burner for quite some time.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To this end, he is now experimenting with Bloodletters, and is considering Bloodcrushers... ...The rest of his army is largely Slaanesh

Khorne and Slannesh mix eh? Yuck! Looks like little girls are the least of your problems.

Have you all _seen_ the Bloodletters on horses conversions?

Here's a pic, top right: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=300005&pIndex=8&aId=4400015&start=9

Other than the miniscule base size, they're really well done. If they were based properly, I'd be way into them. The model's profile isn't even much smaller than the Bloodcrushers in height, although they're somewhat skinnier.

I'd play against them for sure.

I have a converted model of the Blood Angels Librarian Mephiston I made. It breaks a lot of the rules in appearance but I have never had a single complaint and have won a few awards for appearance with my Blood Angels. The first rule I broke was to use terminator armor in lieu of artificer armor. To be honest the only models GW has released with artificer armor I know of are characters such as Mephiston himself. I was worried that there might be some negative comments but all I have heard are compliments. I used the new plastic terminator armor since it is easy to convert and I wanted a large model to represent Mephiston. I made a dynamic pose and used green stuff to build the psychic hood with guitar strings cut and placed inside to represent the cabling.

I also used a combination plasma gun bolted in place of a plasma pistol. I wanted a really big gun!

Finally I used a 40mm base so I could create a mini diorama for the character. It is heavily converted to represent a small part of a Chaos ruin with green bubbling fluids spilling out.

I also used green stuff to sculpt long blonde hair plus a long mustache and beard. Some people have said my Mephiston bares a striking resemblance to a Space Wolf! I also used the long power sword from the Forge World Red Scorpions terminator sergeant for Mephiston's force weapon. Finally I also used green stuff to sculpt a leopard skin cloak attached to the back of his armor.

I reckon I easily put three weeks into this one model building and painting him... This is one of those projects that could go on indefinitely but I finally had to say good is good enough so I could start to work on the Death Company, which has bases built to match my Mephiston.

Like I said no one has ever said I can't use him because of the base or due to WYSIWYG issues. Personally this is one of my favorite creations and modelling/painting is a BIG part of the hobby for me. I love it when hobbyists create something unique. To me that is part of what the hobby is all about.

G

If you are honest about your conversion and don't try and break any rules I don't think anyone will complain. I am working on a squat army as the ork codex, I made sure that they squats are the exact same hight as the orks would have been so people don't bitch about drawing TLOS.

Why does someone (in all fairness and honesty) convert a model? Because they are not satisfied with what is available. So when you convert it you are making something new, which by default makes it cooler. I've seen the most horrid conversions and been impressed with them because of the THOUGHT that went into it.

Most people have an unconscious sense of what is a cool conversion and what is a conversion to take advantage of modelling.

I think upsizing is okay too. Terminators used to look really silly fighting meganobs.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have a converted model of the Blood Angels Librarian Mephiston I made. It breaks a lot of the rules in appearance but I have never had a single complaint and have won a few awards for appearance with my Blood Angels. The first rule I broke was to use terminator armor in lieu of artificer armor. To be honest the only models GW has released with artificer armor I know of are characters such as Mephiston himself. I was worried that there might be some negative comments but all I have heard are compliments. I used the new plastic terminator armor since it is easy to convert and I wanted a large model to represent Mephiston. I made a dynamic pose and used green stuff to build the psychic hood with guitar strings cut and placed inside to represent the cabling.

I also used a combination plasma gun bolted in place of a plasma pistol. I wanted a really big gun!

Finally I used a 40mm base so I could create a mini diorama for the character. It is heavily converted to represent a small part of a Chaos ruin with green bubbling fluids spilling out.

I also used green stuff to sculpt long blonde hair plus a long mustache and beard. Some people have said my Mephiston bares a striking resemblance to a Space Wolf! I also used the long power sword from the Forge World Red Scorpions terminator sergeant for Mephiston's force weapon. Finally I also used green stuff to sculpt a leopard skin cloak attached to the back of his armor.

I reckon I easily put three weeks into this one model building and painting him... This is one of those projects that could go on indefinitely but I finally had to say good is good enough so I could start to work on the Death Company, which has bases built to match my Mephiston.

Like I said no one has ever said I can't use him because of the base or due to WYSIWYG issues. Personally this is one of my favorite creations and modelling/painting is a BIG part of the hobby for me. I love it when hobbyists create something unique. To me that is part of what the hobby is all about.

G

Well, that ticks all the boxes as far as I'm concerned.

1) You didn't feel the normal model was to your tastes.
2) You went bigger.

Ergo, this is an 'ethical' conversion (kind of regret picking that term as it's somewhat snobbish) as the end result clearly isn't an attempt to gain an ingame advantage. Hell, if you opponent gets really narky, just paint the word 'Mephiston' on his base!

I painted Mephiston's former name (he was renamed Mephiston after spending several days trapped in the wreckage of a building and was able to overcome the Black Rage) on his banner.

: )

G

Ahh! Fair enough!

Friend of mine once made a Monolith Variant just using the corner pieces. Tried to use it against me in a game, and I refused!

Those bloodletters riding Nightmares/pookas are pretty freakin' sweet!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Ahh! Fair enough!

Friend of mine once made a Monolith Variant just using the corner pieces. Tried to use it against me in a game, and I refused!

Friend of mine face and Eldar play with a converted Wraith lord. It was converted to be laying on it's belly, and then had some sand bags piled in front of it. Okay, interesting sounding conversion, maybe a little iffy, but I think there should be more crawling models. Said Eldar player then proceeded to move the model, and attempted to claim cover from the sandbags on the models base...... Needless to say my friend was NOT happy about that.

Thats like me buying the Forgeworld Cannon and Mortar implacements, and claiming hard cover.

Somewhat cheaty to my mind, unless part of a specific scenario.

Not somewhat cheaty.
Outright cheaty.