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grouchoben wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames.
So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.

If you don't have a disc herald on the field who can zoom over to give your DS Horrors +1S and cast Flickering Flames on them, then woe is you! The damage output for 30 horrors under those conditions is dramatically higher than you've stated I think:

90 Shots @BS4+ =

45 Wounds @3+ (+1) =

37.5 armour saves @5+ =

An average of 25 dead GEQ from the 30-Horror alpha, or 16.7 from a 20-Horror. They clock in at nearly 1 dead GEQ per model... It's legit.

My calculations are correct I think. I just did not include the +1 S of the Herald, because my intention was to just include the flickering flames. It can be cast from 18 inch, so you do not have to put a character in danger.
For +1 to S the damage of 20 Pinks would be 17 dead GEQs. So I don't think you really need 30. The only reason for me to take 30 would be, because you are afraid of Auspex etc. Stratagems. But quite frankly you could also deep strike 6 Flamers for 15 damage on the GEQs.

By my mental arithmetic, adding a DP's rerolls gets the kills per horror just shy of 100% for 20 and just over for 30.

If you've taken a Tzeentch battalion, two units is entirely doable. Wouldn't get to double up with FF but still a pretty good clearance group with captains that can join a charge of Screamers and Flamers pressing on to the crunchy centre.

Bloodletters are also solid for horde clearance and have a different way of surviving retaliation. A 3D6 charge with A2 S5 AP-3 is fairly capable of stage-managing things to envelope the survivors. Then you're locked in the safety of melee, and if the enemy counter-charge, they're feeding you another round of Unstoppable Ferocity.

The most important thing for letters is to leave combat on your opponents turn so you can charge again for the bonus (unless they have flamers or something)

I really dislike "bomb" hammer but this seemed too good not to ask about:

Pox Riders (Forge World)
Take a max unit with a banner/instrument. With stratagems and a well place daemon prince you could have a unit that can:
1. Deep strike turn 1 and charge
2. Is T5 with 5 wounds
3. Has a 4++ and 5+++ (Rerolling ones with the fecundity upgrade on the DP)
4. Does extra damage on 6's (Maybe even double if you spend command points.
5. Is -2 to hit with unit rules and psychic power.
6. adds 1 to it's charge
7. Does either 27 attacks rerolling 1s at S5 ap -1 D3 that generate extra hits on 6s or 45 S4 attack with rerolling wounds and potentially more damage with strats/psychic.

I know getting all of it off is hard, but most of this unit does things in the unit profile, dabble in a power/strat in to do what you want it to do. (For 530 points)

This seems way stronger/cheaper than the bloodcrusher bomb and out performs the bloodletter bomb since it will be a bear to take off the table over time. (You can always bring back models to get them back over 6 models) If anything the opponent will be pouring a ton of firepower into this unit similar to morty.

I would never invest in anything thats charging out of deep trike without knowing 100% it's going to make its charge. Pox Riders may be cheaper than Bloodcrushers, but I know 100% those Bloodcrushers are getting in.

 Astmeister wrote:

grouchoben wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames.
So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.

If you don't have a disc herald on the field who can zoom over to give your DS Horrors +1S and cast Flickering Flames on them, then woe is you! The damage output for 30 horrors under those conditions is dramatically higher than you've stated I think:

90 Shots @BS4+ =

45 Wounds @3+ (+1) =

37.5 armour saves @5+ =

An average of 25 dead GEQ from the 30-Horror alpha, or 16.7 from a 20-Horror. They clock in at nearly 1 dead GEQ per model... It's legit.

My calculations are correct I think. I just did not include the +1 S of the Herald, because my intention was to just include the flickering flames. It can be cast from 18 inch, so you do not have to put a character in danger.
For +1 to S the damage of 20 Pinks would be 17 dead GEQs. So I don't think you really need 30. The only reason for me to take 30 would be, because you are afraid of Auspex etc. Stratagems. But quite frankly you could also deep strike 6 Flamers for 15 damage on the GEQs.

If you're going Horrors, IMO go big (i.e., 30) and make sure they're fully-supported with Flickering Flames, a Herald, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (if you can swing it, but I think a DP is essential for a Tzeentch army because of his close combat proficiency and his awesome to hit buff), and potentially a warlord with Daemonspark nearby.

Against a 30-unit mob of GEQs, one turn of shooting from those fully-buffed Horrors should result in about 34 dead GEQs, so there's even room to dial back on the buffs a bit.

I'm feeling like 2 units of 20 horrors rather than a big unit of 30 might end up being the best for bomb purposes. It has a larger footprint but it also prevents your opponent from focusing down a single unit. Plus at 8PL a piece it still only costs 2 CP for DS purposes.

 buddha wrote:
I'm feeling like 2 units of 20 horrors rather than a big unit of 30 might end up being the best for bomb purposes. It has a larger footprint but it also prevents your opponent from focusing down a single unit. Plus at 8PL a piece it still only costs 2 CP for DS purposes.

That sounds like a good idea. You will also need troop choices to fill the people in the battalion anyway (if you want to field one).

 andysonic1 wrote:
I would never invest in anything thats charging out of deep trike without knowing 100% it's going to make its charge. Pox Riders may be cheaper than Bloodcrushers, but I know 100% those Bloodcrushers are getting in.

2D6 + 1 with a reroll to a die is still an pretty high chance, and even if they miss the charge, what exactly is going to crack that unit? (Blood crushers aren't exactly tough)

Off hand with the -2 to hit going and 4++ against las cannons on space marines (an extreme opponent example), you are tanking 4.5 lascannon shots per wound....that's nuts. (22.5 shots to kill one model)

Against Bolters, 27 shots per wound. (135 shots to kill one model)

If you throw in reroll 1s strat, it gets silly.

IE: If you miss with blood crushers your game is over, if you miss with this unit you can laugh maniacally.

Brian888 wrote:

If you're going Horrors, IMO go big (i.e., 30) and make sure they're fully-supported with Flickering Flames, a Herald, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (if you can swing it, but I think a DP is essential for a Tzeentch army because of his close combat proficiency and his awesome to hit buff), and potentially a warlord with Daemonspark nearby.

Against a 30-unit mob of GEQs, one turn of shooting from those fully-buffed Horrors should result in about 34 dead GEQs, so there's even room to dial back on the buffs a bit.

I wouldn't really dial it back. The other advantage of the shooting squad is that you can more easily split your fire over multiple units. That way of you can insure you kill an entire battalions worth of GEQ.

Also some one said if you don't have the disc Herald you might not get the buff. This really shouldn't be an issue at all. You cab always chain back a model or two from the pink horror squad to do the baton pass on the str aura. You only need one horror to bask In the aura after all.

yes pox riders are extremly though, crushers hits hard but then they die pretty easily, no army can take out 9 pox riders in 1 single turn of fire, in particular if they get +1 to their invul save. 45 wounds saving at 4++ 5+++ over T 5 is huge.

45 wounds with T5, 4++/5+++ is indeed huge but so is the 567 point and 4CP price tag (deep strike and +1 inv).

I guess I'm just approaching it from a different perspective since I'm not about to drop 9 Bloodcrushers out of the warp anytime soon. You're right that 9 Pox Riders are going to last longer than 9 Bloodcrushers. I'd only drop in 3 Crushers at a time to save CP and with full knowledge that they aren't going to be around long if they are the only big target. From a Khorne Daemons / CSM player's perspective I'm not super worried about Pox Riders since I'll be punching them instead of shooting them. I can see how other armies would be sweating bullets when those things tear through the warp 9 inches away, though, and the ungodly amount of firepower needed to remove them. It seems like there are a lot of Bomb possibilities with every god that are just as viable as the other if you do it right.

Why are we talking about bloodcrushers, lol?
Sounds like the biggest waste of time ever.

I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.

What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?

Or would Centigors maybe work better.... hrm!

 matt123456790 wrote:
45 wounds with T5, 4++/5+++ is indeed huge but so is the 567 point and 4CP price tag (deep strike and +1 inv).

4cp's are nothing,considering how easy is build a brigade of use 3 battalions, 567pts is a lot i agree, but i prefer them than 475pts of Mortarion which die in 1 single turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I guess I'm just approaching it from a different perspective since I'm not about to drop 9 Bloodcrushers out of the warp anytime soon. You're right that 9 Pox Riders are going to last longer than 9 Bloodcrushers. I'd only drop in 3 Crushers at a time to save CP and with full knowledge that they aren't going to be around long if they are the only big target. From a Khorne Daemons / CSM player's perspective I'm not super worried about Pox Riders since I'll be punching them instead of shooting them. I can see how other armies would be sweating bullets when those things tear through the warp 9 inches away, though, and the ungodly amount of firepower needed to remove them. It seems like there are a lot of Bomb possibilities with every god that are just as viable as the other if you do it right.

try to remove them in CaC too... then you see you need tons and tons of attacks, i ve seen what a big unit of pox riders can do, hit them at -2 means most of ur attacks will need a 5+ to hit, easy to say very hard to do.

My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)

How much have people played with a nurgling tide with the new bilepiper? Seems like a decent hoard approach (ala conscripts) to support daemon princes/heavies and perform deepstrike board denial.

I'm thinking a battalion or two of nurglings/bilepiper with a khorne bloodletter bomb and skull cannons, something like this:
Two Nurgle Battlions of:
1x bilepiper
1x DP with wings
3x Nurglings
(One detachment has a poxbringer as warlord)

1x Khorne spearhead with:
1x BT of unfettered fury w/ skullreaver
1x bloodletters (30) with banner/instrument
2x khorne dogs (eight per unit)
3x skull cannons

Nurglings keep deepstrikers out of my deployment on turn 1, Khorne does the attacking, nurgle does the support. 10 CP will allow lots of shenanigans after the Bloodletter bomb.

i was gifted with 8 pox riders time ago, so no matter if they will nerf, i will play until i can.

Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:
My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)

They do seem a liiiiiiittle undercosted, or Bloodcrushers are a liiiittle overcosted, one or the other. Regardless I wouldn't call this a deathstar so much as a deathunit. It doesn't need much help. Even the Bloodletter bomb only needs one Herald (with Crown, Warlord Trait, and Detachment Locus, to be fair).

 andysonic1 wrote:
Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.

Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.

That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.

mmimzie wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.

Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.

That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.

Useless? Allowing every other Khorne Daemon nearby re-roll 1's is not useless. Skullreaver deletes other units with ease and the occasional mortal wounds seals their fates. He hides behind other units and can only be picked out by a very small amount of special units. His stats don't degrade. It just makes more sense to bring the Prince over the Thirster if you're trying to be competitive.

If you don't want to invest in pox riders a 9 man plauge drone squad with icon and horn will fill the exact same role.

 andysonic1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.

Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.

That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.

Useless? Allowing every other Khorne Daemon nearby re-roll 1's is not useless. Skullreaver deletes other units with ease and the occasional mortal wounds seals their fates. He hides behind other units and can only be picked out by a very small amount of special units. His stats don't degrade. It just makes more sense to bring the Prince over the Thirster if you're trying to be competitive.

Yeah if you reread my post no where in there did I say the blood thirster is better than the daemon prince.


That said in horde situations the daemon Prince really doesn't have much to do. He's just chilling out with his thumb up his butt. Yeah he's amazing when you get him into a rank or something, but if your just slobbering cheap rhinos and drop pods your gonna be sad. Even more so since he can reliably deep strike and charge so he has to take atleast a turn marching into conbat wings or not.

The reroll 1s thing doesn't get you That much value. It's a 1/6th increase in damage for units around them. This mean you need to buff 150 blood letters attacking before he's grabbed his points back on that alone.

Again not saying his terrible or bad. He's pretty much always a good take, but there are situations where he can let you down where a blood thirster won't as the blood thirst kills everything pretty well, and woth out need for any relics.

 buddha wrote:
If you don't want to invest in pox riders a 9 man plauge drone squad with icon and horn will fill the exact same role.

1 less wound, no ap-1 weapons, lower damage output and no -1 to be hit, close but not the same

 sfshilo wrote:
My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)

How much have people played with a nurgling tide with the new bilepiper? Seems like a decent hoard approach (ala conscripts) to support daemon princes/heavies and perform deepstrike board denial.

I'm thinking a battalion or two of nurglings/bilepiper with a khorne bloodletter bomb and skull cannons, something like this:
Two Nurgle Battlions of:
1x bilepiper
1x DP with wings
3x Nurglings
(One detachment has a poxbringer as warlord)

1x Khorne spearhead with:
1x BT of unfettered fury w/ skullreaver
1x bloodletters (30) with banner/instrument
2x khorne dogs (eight per unit)
3x skull cannons

Nurglings keep deepstrikers out of my deployment on turn 1, Khorne does the attacking, nurgle does the support. 10 CP will allow lots of shenanigans after the Bloodletter bomb.

Skull cannons are cheap and hit on 3+s, but I need to do some math and proxy some to see if they're really worth what you're giving up 300pts for. Either way, split the flesh hounds into more units to get more deny rolls (5+5+6 is fine)- that'll also allow you to make it an outrider. That way you can play with the # of skull cannons instead of being obligated to take 3

 blackmage wrote:

 buddha wrote:
If you don't want to invest in pox riders a 9 man plauge drone squad with icon and horn will fill the exact same role.

1 less wound, no ap-1 weapons, lower damage output and no -1 to be hit, close but not the same

All true but also around 200 less points for 9 drones. If you have pox riders play them for sure but I expect the Nerf hammer and for their real world cost I think 9 drones is the safer bet.

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.

What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?

Or would Centigors maybe work better.... hrm!

Are fiends of Slaanesh out of production? I can still get them through the web store in my region.

As for proxies, generally the rule of cool trumps all. As long as the base is the same and the silhouette is roughly the same size then most players will be OK with it.

JakeSiren wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.

What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?

Or would Centigors maybe work better.... hrm!

Are fiends of Slaanesh out of production? I can still get them through the web store in my region.

As for proxies, generally the rule of cool trumps all. As long as the base is the same and the silhouette is roughly the same size then most players will be OK with it.

I'm sorry I didn't mean out of production, I meant out of stock on the GW store. Though they have been out of stock for awhile. So it makes me wonder.. *crosses fingers*. Thanks for the tip on how people view conversions!

What do people think of the Lord of change?

 Sasori wrote:
What do people think of the Lord of change?

Been loving mine, built him with the sword and haven't regretted it yet.

He's so hard to kill that my opponents have begun to flat out ignore him, which only works to their peril as it leaves him free to deny, buff and punish misplaced units. He'll usually only make back his points worth of personally slain models if your opponent keeps letting you punish with gateway or leaves vehicles open to hack apart with the sword, but the level of disruption he can apply, and the fire magnet he creates to protect your other units for an unfamiliar/unprepared opponent is great. Best used with your second HQ having the reroll granting power.

I've found that the damage reduction warlord trait isn't super-critical, instead I've taken to using bolt/gate/flickering with the daemonspark trait to buff deepstriking horrors/flamers.