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Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Irbis wrote:
I actually like auras, they are both different mechanic and fluffy in the factor that they don't buff individual SM units as much as IG officers do theirs (because SM already work on much higher level) but the Captain can split his attention much more efficiently and juggle multiple facets at once unlike normal humans.

Normal human Canoness does the exact same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, question: is the lore included in the beta codex interesting? I'm pondering whether I should purchase or not, and since the rules are apparently pretty bad…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/16 12:16:31


Feminism is good. Racism is bad.
Sabbat-pattern helmets best helmets.
If you believe that marines aren't powerful enough on the tabletop to match the fluff, remember that Custodes got rules but Planetary Defense Force don't.
Not buying a product does not work against Marxists. They cite "white males are bad, and are just sexist women haters that live in the basement and move on with their day." They do not care about profits only to acquire more vehicles to infect their politics into.”, ThatMG on Karl Marx's influence on the Russian revolution, 2019 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 insaniak wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I think people are absolutely missing the point of the character creation rules, and why they're listed as Open Play only.

If you attend a tournament, do you think any TO is going to take the time to verify your bespoke made-up gak? No.

The Vehicle Design Rules weren't generally allowed in tournaments, but still had points costs...


Tournament organisers are always free to allow or disallow whatever they choose. That's not a reason to make it harder for people to use stuff in casual play.


The thing is, the lack of points values is only half of the problem. The bigger issue is the same as we faced with the VDR - you can use these rules to create awesome, characterful pieces for your army... that most likely won't be valid for use next edition, when these creation rules are completely forgotten about. There's been a long history of GW creating rules for creating awesome custom stuff and then forgetting all about it five minutes later (Cursed Foundings, anyone?), which is painful when you've gone and built a bunch of models based around those rules.

Even if they're going to be Open play only, it would be nice to have these sorts of unit creation rules bundled into a proper standalone supplement that gets updated each edition.


My Legion of the Damned Dreadnought, bikes, Terminators and Landspeeder say "Hello!". Also my Kroot Merc army.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
I actually like auras, they are both different mechanic and fluffy in the factor that they don't buff individual SM units as much as IG officers do theirs (because SM already work on much higher level) but the Captain can split his attention much more efficiently and juggle multiple facets at once unlike normal humans.

Normal human Canoness does the exact same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, question: is the lore included in the beta codex interesting? I'm pondering whether I should purchase or not, and since the rules are apparently pretty bad…


There is a bit of lore - 5 pages plus some minis pages but thats about it. There is nearly as much on the Eight whch speaks volumes.

The rules do not appear to be great - big nerfs to the good units, there are a few nice new bits mostly just meh - especially the AOF replacement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm impressed at how lazy the much advertized Looted Vehicles rules are. They're literally just Rhino (which can add enough small arms to be a Chimera), Russ and Baneblade with imperial guns swapped out for Ork guns and one random D3 table. They even go as far as typing out the entirety of the Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! rule in full on each of the 3 datasheets just to fill up white space.


What should they have done instead? Sounds perfectly fine approach to me. Looted Russ has rules resembling Russ, makes perfect sense to me. Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to use these in matched if people are willing to be flexible; you only need to come up with point cost for the chassis.


Looting Eldar, Tau and Necron vehicles as an option would have given a bit more variety.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/16 16:15:43


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.
And let's face it, a wheeled, looted grav tank is one of the most Orky things ever.

5250 pts
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Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.


Except you can't get FLY etc to represent either mad Orky tech or partially functioning other tech.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.


Except you can't get FLY etc to represent either mad Orky tech or partially functioning other tech.

Considering that Ork vehicles do not seem to use anti-grav, it seems realistic to me that they would be unable to maintain it on a looted vehicle.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Crimson wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.


Except you can't get FLY etc to represent either mad Orky tech or partially functioning other tech.

Considering that Ork vehicles do not seem to use anti-grav, it seems realistic to me that they would be unable to maintain it on a looted vehicle.


Yeah but they could put big propellas and such on it Necron and tau tech is pretty strurdy - that bit might work for quite a while

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/16 17:41:12


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Manchester, UK

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And let's face it, a wheeled, looted grav tank is one of the most Orky things ever.


Orks do love their looting.

Spoiler:


Or, of course, my favourite type of looting:

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/16 20:53:03


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

There is fluff that the Necrons have paid-off invading Orks with their tech. Mostly as more resource sensible than fighting them. Sure, mechs then tinkered with it and blew up half a city.... but if Necron tech can survive 65 million years it can survive a few days in ork hands.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Indomitable Hell Rider of Glorious Renown






102nd Expeditionary Fleet

Has anyone else already messed around with the Hero creation stuff?

I gave it a couple of looks and while it looks fun, it's also quite.. over the top! Probably a good thing that it's for Open Play only, as tacking on eight extra skills / buffs can result in some obscene builds.

Be ash and cinder forevermore!

V - 11 | T - 3 | 敗 - 40

DakkaDakka | Where you thank the mods for baning you! 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 Crimson wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
That is an option. The rules just mention they usually use Imperial, but nothing to stop you popping wheels on a looted grav tank and use these rules to represent it.


Except you can't get FLY etc to represent either mad Orky tech or partially functioning other tech.

Considering that Ork vehicles do not seem to use anti-grav, it seems realistic to me that they would be unable to maintain it on a looted vehicle.


Indeed. But as we’re talking Open Play there’s nothing stopping you just using a Necron Croissant, Datasheet and all, in an Ork army anyway.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 BrookM wrote:
Has anyone else already messed around with the Hero creation stuff?

I gave it a couple of looks and while it looks fun, it's also quite.. over the top! Probably a good thing that it's for Open Play only, as tacking on eight extra skills / buffs can result in some obscene builds.

Yeah, I can see why it is restricted. Being able to give one trait, perhaps for one CP, might work for matched though.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
I actually like auras, they are both different mechanic and fluffy in the factor that they don't buff individual SM units as much as IG officers do theirs (because SM already work on much higher level) but the Captain can split his attention much more efficiently and juggle multiple facets at once unlike normal humans.

Normal human Canoness does the exact same.

Eh, "normal" how? It's pretty much the same thing as SM, monastic warriors molded and indoctrinated from birth, fighting being their only call in life. Maybe they aren't as resilient as SM (represented by lacking ATSKNF) but Sisters will have a decade of training by the time IG trooper merely enlists, making SM-like rules quite appropriate. I fail to see the problem.



   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





The Shire(s)

 Irbis wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
I actually like auras, they are both different mechanic and fluffy in the factor that they don't buff individual SM units as much as IG officers do theirs (because SM already work on much higher level) but the Captain can split his attention much more efficiently and juggle multiple facets at once unlike normal humans.

Normal human Canoness does the exact same.

Eh, "normal" how? It's pretty much the same thing as SM, monastic warriors molded and indoctrinated from birth, fighting being their only call in life. Maybe they aren't as resilient as SM (represented by lacking ATSKNF) but Sisters will have a decade of training by the time IG trooper merely enlists, making SM-like rules quite appropriate. I fail to see the problem.




Shouldn't Tempestor Primes have the same then, seeing as they come from the same background? (Schola Progenium).

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Irbis wrote:
Eh, "normal" how?

Normal humans as in “not modified through a weird process that include adding several organs, being able to spit acid, and learn memories of the things you eat.".
I thought that was what you meant too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
There is a bit of lore - 5 pages plus some minis pages but thats about it.

Does this include new stuff, or is it just rehash of old things?
W293UK had only 6 pages on the Sisters, but was better than Codex: Witchhunter. Actually, to this day, I think the best sources of fluff for Sisters is WD293UK, with Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd edition) as best source of fluff for the Ecclesiarchy. Got those two books? Don't really need anything else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/17 00:12:34


Feminism is good. Racism is bad.
Sabbat-pattern helmets best helmets.
If you believe that marines aren't powerful enough on the tabletop to match the fluff, remember that Custodes got rules but Planetary Defense Force don't.
Not buying a product does not work against Marxists. They cite "white males are bad, and are just sexist women haters that live in the basement and move on with their day." They do not care about profits only to acquire more vehicles to infect their politics into.”, ThatMG on Karl Marx's influence on the Russian revolution, 2019 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Haighus wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
I actually like auras, they are both different mechanic and fluffy in the factor that they don't buff individual SM units as much as IG officers do theirs (because SM already work on much higher level) but the Captain can split his attention much more efficiently and juggle multiple facets at once unlike normal humans.

Normal human Canoness does the exact same.

Eh, "normal" how? It's pretty much the same thing as SM, monastic warriors molded and indoctrinated from birth, fighting being their only call in life. Maybe they aren't as resilient as SM (represented by lacking ATSKNF) but Sisters will have a decade of training by the time IG trooper merely enlists, making SM-like rules quite appropriate. I fail to see the problem.




Shouldn't Tempestor Primes have the same then, seeing as they come from the same background? (Schola Progenium).

Perhaps, but don't they have their own unique Orders anyway?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 BrookM wrote:
Has anyone else already messed around with the Hero creation stuff?

I gave it a couple of looks and while it looks fun, it's also quite.. over the top! Probably a good thing that it's for Open Play only, as tacking on eight extra skills / buffs can result in some obscene builds.

Yeah, I can see why it is restricted. Being able to give one trait, perhaps for one CP, might work for matched though.

I think that the basic 4 traits would've been fine for 1CP. The 6 or 8 might've been too much for sure though, agreed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 04:09:38


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





The Shire(s)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Haighus wrote:

Shouldn't Tempestor Primes have the same then, seeing as they come from the same background? (Schola Progenium).

Perhaps, but don't they have their own unique Orders anyway?

They do, which is the point!

My understanding of the discussion (heavily paraphrased) is that someone suggested all aura buffs should work like AM orders, because it makes things much easier to balance, and is fluffy anyway.

Then someone countered by saying it is fluffy for Space Marines to have auras, because they are super humans capable of processing huge amounts of data and issuing many individual orders.

This was countered by someone pointing out Sisters of Battle also have auras, despite being unaugmented humans.

Then the idea of Sisters not being nornal humans due to their lifetime of indoctrination and training was raised, so it makes semse for Sisters to have auras.

To which I pointed out that Tempestor Primes (and Scions in general) have a very similar background to Sisters, yet do not use the same aura mechanism.

I think it should be clear that orders versus auras is entirely a mechanical consideration, not a fluff consideration. Imperial Guard Officers had auras before they created the order system in 5th ed.

Personally, I think replacing auras with orders could be a cool way of adding more player choice into the game. The exact implementation could vary by race.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Perhaps, but don't they have their own unique Orders anyway?

Not any longer. The really unique Orders for them were all in the Tempestus book, now they just get a single Order that is really kind of lackluster for what Scions have(reroll Wounds vs Monsters and Vehicles). It certainly improves plasma spam but that's not really something they needed help with.


That said...
I think Tempestor Primes really do need some help, since they either issue a single Order as an HQ choice(which the only other Officer doing so is a fricking Tank) or ditch their ranged weapon for a second Order.

I don't know what I would do to make them a bit more appealing for anything outside of just ensuring you get the Stormtrooper Regiment perk in a Patrol, but I think there should be something.


Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Perhaps, but don't they have their own unique Orders anyway?

Not any longer. The really unique Orders for them were all in the Tempestus book, now they just get a single Order that is really kind of lackluster for what Scions have(reroll Wounds vs Monsters and Vehicles). It certainly improves plasma spam but that's not really something they needed help with.


That said...
I think Tempestor Primes really do need some help, since they either issue a single Order as an HQ choice(which the only other Officer doing so is a fricking Tank) or ditch their ranged weapon for a second Order.

I don't know what I would do to make them a bit more appealing for anything outside of just ensuring you get the Stormtrooper Regiment perk in a Patrol, but I think there should be something.


Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

Eh it isn't like they would've had much range output anyway, so I'd be okay just losing. I understand it's the principle of it though, as now you're also limited to just 3 dudes.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





The Shire(s)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

I prefer the orders approach because the playstyle is different. Auras promote cramming units next to each other more (especially with the demise of templates), because they typically have a short range, and they tend to benefit all units in range.

Orders tend to have a longer range (range could also be varied hugely between factions) and the number of affected units is predictable. Therefore, it can allow for a more distributed playstyle (I'm not saying this is currently effective under AM rules, but then I play Steel Legion). I think this suits the elite nature of Marines more than forming a large cluster does. The Marine fiction has them constantly communicating via vox and coordinating disparate units

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Haighus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

I prefer the orders approach because the playstyle is different. Auras promote cramming units next to each other more (especially with the demise of templates), because they typically have a short range, and they tend to benefit all units in range.

Orders tend to have a longer range (range could also be varied hugely between factions) and the number of affected units is predictable. Therefore, it can allow for a more distributed playstyle (I'm not saying this is currently effective under AM rules, but then I play Steel Legion). I think this suits the elite nature of Marines more than forming a large cluster does. The Marine fiction has them constantly communicating via vox and coordinating disparate units

Yep. Preferring the orders to auras has nothing to do with which mechanic is more powerful, and everything to do with which results the better gameplay.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Crimson wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

I prefer the orders approach because the playstyle is different. Auras promote cramming units next to each other more (especially with the demise of templates), because they typically have a short range, and they tend to benefit all units in range.

Orders tend to have a longer range (range could also be varied hugely between factions) and the number of affected units is predictable. Therefore, it can allow for a more distributed playstyle (I'm not saying this is currently effective under AM rules, but then I play Steel Legion). I think this suits the elite nature of Marines more than forming a large cluster does. The Marine fiction has them constantly communicating via vox and coordinating disparate units

Yep. Preferring the orders to auras has nothing to do with which mechanic is more powerful, and everything to do with which results the better gameplay.


From mechanical design, auras limit design because of how powerful they are. Orders don't have to be limited and could be more flexible in terms of design. Auras are merely 6" everything gets this, which is more powerful, but limiting cause it could be overpowered entirely and encouraging 'death balls' which I hope GW wants to avoid as it leads to less interactive and fun board placement.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The counterpoint to that is units with LQR, Guide, Fortune, Protect, and Fight Twice.

Almost all CWE buffs are limited to 1 target each, yet people complain to high heaven about them.

I agree that targetted buffs are easy to balance, but it's not a silver bullet.

I prefer the buffs to auras in large part because GW moved the game from `DeathStar unit` to `DeathStar blob of units`.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Bharring wrote:
The counterpoint to that is units with LQR, Guide, Fortune, Protect, and Fight Twice.

Almost all CWE buffs are limited to 1 target each, yet people complain to high heaven about them.

I agree that targetted buffs are easy to balance, but it's not a silver bullet.

I prefer the buffs to auras in large part because GW moved the game from `DeathStar unit` to `DeathStar blob of units`.


Oh i agree, but there should be a way to punish players for blobbing up as much as they are currently. Punishing blobbing and or 'stretching' (Where you spread your entire unit as far from unit cohesion) should be looked at for design issues.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Haighus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

I prefer the orders approach because the playstyle is different. Auras promote cramming units next to each other more (especially with the demise of templates), because they typically have a short range, and they tend to benefit all units in range.

That's an issue with Marine auras benefiting large numbers of things at once rather than specific items.

Orders tend to have a longer range (range could also be varied hugely between factions) and the number of affected units is predictable. Therefore, it can allow for a more distributed playstyle (I'm not saying this is currently effective under AM rules, but then I play Steel Legion).

Orders have a higher basic range but also are limited as to what gets affected and you have a limited number of models issuing them to start with. Orders only affect Regiment Infantry, you need to take specialized Order units(Tempestor Primes for Scions and Tank Commanders for Leman Russes--not even all vehicles, just Leman Russes) to get them anywhere else.

I think this suits the elite nature of Marines more than forming a large cluster does. The Marine fiction has them constantly communicating via vox and coordinating disparate units

And the Guard fiction has tank commanders issuing orders to their accompanying troops, Scions taking orders from Regimental officers and issuing them to Regimental assets, etc etc.

Screw Marines getting Orders. Auras work fine for them as is, the "clustering" is going to happen no matter what since Order range isn't exactly a huge thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Asherian Command wrote:

Oh i agree, but there should be a way to punish players for blobbing up as much as they are currently. Punishing blobbing and or 'stretching' (Where you spread your entire unit as far from unit cohesion) should be looked at for design issues.

It's called "Wholly Within".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh it isn't like they would've had much range output anyway, so I'd be okay just losing. I understand it's the principle of it though, as now you're also limited to just 3 dudes.

For me, personally, it's that the Scion Orders were actually unique and interesting.

You had stuff that let them get Rending, Fleet, Sniper and Pinning(at the expense of being unable to charge or Rapid Fire), twin-linked, Crusader, and Preferred Enemy for their shooting attacks.

People love to whine about the Scions getting their own book, but it honestly was a better representation of the way Guard have been portrayed in fluff than Guard themselves have ever been portrayed IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 23:44:37


 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Manchester, UK

 Kanluwen wrote:
People love to whine about the Scions getting their own book, but it honestly was a better representation of the way Guard have been portrayed in fluff than Guard themselves have ever been portrayed IMO.


I never fully understood the hate that the Tempestus book got. I guess it was just indicative of all those mini-codexes that came out, and the way 7th edition eventually spiralled into insanity. The book itself was pretty good, and a pure Scions force was really fun.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ca
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot





 Trickstick wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
People love to whine about the Scions getting their own book, but it honestly was a better representation of the way Guard have been portrayed in fluff than Guard themselves have ever been portrayed IMO.


I never fully understood the hate that the Tempestus book got. I guess it was just indicative of all those mini-codexes that came out, and the way 7th edition eventually spiralled into insanity. The book itself was pretty good, and a pure Scions force was really fun.


Yeah, personally I was pretty happy with how the Tempestus book turned out, considering how barebones the army is, it had considerable flavour. I know it has hate primarily due to the fluff it introduced, many see it as unnecessary torture porn origins on how the Scions are raised.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

If people are arguing about auras vs orders, I prefer orders. Blobbing is not cool.

It's also not just a marine issue. I think the most ridiculous blobbing involves hordes of plaguebearers or cultists, all chained back to Abaddon or a tree.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Asherian Command wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, obligatory "Orders are inferior versions of Auras" post. Yeah I know people want to pretend that Orders are better, but it's easier to forget that it requires a specific setup for things to really get crazy for Orders.

I prefer the orders approach because the playstyle is different. Auras promote cramming units next to each other more (especially with the demise of templates), because they typically have a short range, and they tend to benefit all units in range.

Orders tend to have a longer range (range could also be varied hugely between factions) and the number of affected units is predictable. Therefore, it can allow for a more distributed playstyle (I'm not saying this is currently effective under AM rules, but then I play Steel Legion). I think this suits the elite nature of Marines more than forming a large cluster does. The Marine fiction has them constantly communicating via vox and coordinating disparate units

Yep. Preferring the orders to auras has nothing to do with which mechanic is more powerful, and everything to do with which results the better gameplay.


From mechanical design, auras limit design because of how powerful they are. Orders don't have to be limited and could be more flexible in terms of design. Auras are merely 6" everything gets this, which is more powerful, but limiting cause it could be overpowered entirely and encouraging 'death balls' which I hope GW wants to avoid as it leads to less interactive and fun board placement.

The thing of it too is that you can keep auras for specific units like Chaplains and Dark Apostles (who would be a more inspiring presence rather than a Commander, so to speak), and then the Captain and Lieutenant would have separate orders. Or something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
People love to whine about the Scions getting their own book, but it honestly was a better representation of the way Guard have been portrayed in fluff than Guard themselves have ever been portrayed IMO.


I never fully understood the hate that the Tempestus book got. I guess it was just indicative of all those mini-codexes that came out, and the way 7th edition eventually spiralled into insanity. The book itself was pretty good, and a pure Scions force was really fun.

I think it's the lack of contents. I remember how stupidly excited I was when the Legion of the Damned "codex" was announced. I then saw the contents.

I don't think I was ever as mad as that towards GW ever in the entirety I had been playing this game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 02:34:35


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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