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 some bloke wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Big Trakk - I tried it last week and I was happy with it. Holds more, go faster and even killed 2 guardsman. But 1 game is too less to judge.

I liked especially the shape. Low profile keeps him in cover, large footprint control more area and blocks the enemy movement pretty well.

I actually quite like the idea of the Big Trakk as a juiced up Trukk. The mobility, wounds and big shoota is welcome for the 20pts extra you pay for it. Its just annoying its a Heavy Support in that configuration when it feels more like a Fast Attack or even a Dedicated Transport. I havent worked out what id use it to transport yet but for its cost I like it. With the rise of Eradicators and other AT options cropping up in 9th, the lower toughness doesnt matter all that much as whatever is out there will most likely kill a Battlewagon as easily as a Big Trakk and atleast they will overkill the Trakk with Eradicators.

I agree, big trakks should go to dedicated transport, and should also be able to be fielded in heavy support with the big guns. Simple rule could let this happen, saying can be dedicated but dedicated can't take big guns. Or separate the datasheets to big trakk & Guntrakk (and give us guntrukks, they would be so cool!)

We used to have Guntrukks way back during the raid on kastorel-novem IA book most if not all new Ork players dont really realise how much Ork players lost in terms of units, characters and wargear! Wazzdakka was my boy way back in 4th! And all he is now is just a bit of fluff

i even kitbashed a relatively accurate model for wazdakka eons ago.
He was awesome. Still pissed they removed him.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i even kitbashed a relatively accurate model for wazdakka eons ago.
He was awesome. Still pissed they removed him.

For whatever reason, GW will pump out endless captain/lieutenant variants but god forbid they give some HQ character options for other xenos factions that aren't centerpiece models. His fluff was always hilarious too, being able to singlehandedly take down a warlord titan by crashing through its void shields and into its cockpit. Classic Ork solution.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i even kitbashed a relatively accurate model for wazdakka eons ago.
He was awesome. Still pissed they removed him.

For whatever reason, GW will pump out endless captain/lieutenant variants but god forbid they give some HQ character options for other xenos factions that aren't centerpiece models. His fluff was always hilarious too, being able to singlehandedly take down a warlord titan by crashing through its void shields and into its cockpit. Classic Ork solution.

Sadly that's not a one off any more. A random nob does it in a novel by nicking a Shokkjump Dragsta and porting through the void shields. Technically he does it better I guess as he's not on fire after. (Is that better? I dunno.)

Ah yes IA 8, the book that really got my kitbashing juices flowing. Dear GW, Orks do not need a model to have rules, we need rules so that we can kitbash the models!

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.

What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)

I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.

I dont understand why GW takes rules away that doesnt have models.
Vast majority of orks would buy multiple kits from other armies to kitbash those units, or even just multiple other ork units to kitbash it.

Kitbashing from total scrap isnt as common as people think.

That wazdakka i have took pieces from like 5 boxes lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I dont understand why GW takes rules away that doesnt have models.
Vast majority of orks would buy multiple kits from other armies to kitbash those units, or even just multiple other ork units to kitbash it.

Kitbashing from total scrap isnt as common as people think.

That wazdakka i have took pieces from like 5 boxes lol

Even my builds from mostly scrap and trash still use a hefty amount of bitz.

Not caught up on the thread, but in 8th I was playing an inquisition player who routinely had a 10-man unit buffed to a 2++.

I was taking 10-man Nobz plain for mass attacks (maybe dual choppa, I can't remember) to just bypass the INV with as many wounds on the small footprint as I could fit in. I haven't played 9th yet so I assume the viability of his unit has lessened given Ob Sec?

Going forward I wouldn't want them to necessarily be a shooting unit but instead something with a viable threat and maybe freely armed with Big Choppas. Also access to a Skarboy like strat could be interesting if you could do mass attacks cheaper than just PKs. It is clear in elite-creep they have been left behind.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

They are great regardless.

I've had so much success with Deff Koptas with *any* loadout. The rockets are nice if you want that utility pick, but having them as cheap as possible also makes it less painful to throw them away.

The Big shootas hit like a wet noodle, but for the 2-3 MSU koptas I bring, could those 30-45 points be used elsewhere? Probably. And I still get a unit that is just so bloody annoying.

Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless

 Jidmah wrote:
Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless

I'm not even an Ork player and I miss Koptas with Rokkits/KMB and Killsaws as cheap flanking threats. That plus Deffrolla Wagons loaded with Burna Boyz tank shocking something and laying 15 templates over it for enough hits to melt almost anything.

Beardedragon wrote:
If forge world kannonwagon has free big shootas, hopefully the regular GW versions, like gunwagon will have them free too when codex drops.

Right now a kannon wagon has free big shootas, but the gunwagon does not.

Has the FW model have option to NOT have the big shootas?

If not the cost is baked into model cost. Similarly if weapon is upgradable the point cost will show DIFFERENCE between weapons(you have weapon that costs 10 pts and can upgrade it to 15 pts, point cost sheet will show upgrade as +5 pts)


And free big shoota if there's option to have 0...x big shootas would be bad idea from game design POV. Who WOULDN'T take free big shootas then

What's so bad about people always taking four big shootas all the time?

It essentially just allows people who have their wagons modeled in a different way to have less than four. I'm fairly sure all my big shoota gunners ended up being converted to other models, and you can only fit two on top and one on the 'ard case.

shogun wrote:

Also looking at a triple kill-tank list. I got 3 blue battle fortresses so I really want to use them (deathskull's). Not a Tournament winning army but could pack a decent punch. Also going to get a warbike warboss and a KFF-big mek but after that I'am a little stuck.

I might pick 12 tankbusta's, 10 flash gits and a few commando squads plus deathkopta's for objective grabbing. Really trying to find the balance between objective grabbing and damage output. I got some great looking grot's and want to add at least 2 units but dunno if I should get more boyz or simply stick with smaller objective grabbing units. Also might trade the tankbusta's with the boomer gun weagon.

Any advice?

I am also trying to make a list with multiple Kill Tanks, and so far, until I get my bitz for the 3rd Kill tank, I will have to make due with only two.
This means two aux superhavy detachments (costing the hefty sum of 6 cp, just like a superheavy detachment with Titanic units in it, but the units don't get the evil sunz trait benefits, but that is ok).

I think the investment is worth it, because of the extreme tankyness of a 275 points gigashooter kill tank.

The list I dislike the least is this Evil sunz one:



Why ? Well because visions of the smoke make a kill tank quite threatening (shooting phase + assault phase), and because a Warboss on Warbike + a Battlewagon can rush up the board and charge stuff from far away, along with the kill tanks (especially if you drop the shooting with
the gigashooters to run + charge using the bikerboss aura). You can (theoratically) play cagey then in one spread out and assault stuff.

You can support these charges with da jumping boyz, with the evil sunz trait, we all know how reliable a boyz charge is.

So basically the plan is to send relatively durable stuff down the opponent's throat turn 1 (or charge the midfield units he may send if that cheeky git gets first turn and tries to occupy the midfield), as well as boyz (which are not very durable, but at least they block enemy movement quite well).

And why we do that, we try to outscore our opponent by deplying scramblers, by engaging on all fronts, and by trying to spread out on these primary objectives to hold more than our opponent.

Of course harlequins and a few other slippery armies will crush this plan with ease (harlquins have the tools to dispose of our kill tanks in short order), but I want to try it out anyway.
The 2 Kill Tanks and the Forktres BWagon means 48 wounds (toughness 8, ramshackle, KFF 5++ for first and perhaps second turn), and the Froktress 16 more wounds (5++) carrying 20 boyz in it. A total of 64 tougness 8 wounds !
And lets not forget the T8 biker boss with 8 wounds and a 4++ !

The list also has 62 boyz (42 footslogging boyz, 20 boyz in the forktress), and the Waagh banner will ensure the kill tanks and the boyz will be able to hit decently.
We have the mandatory 2*5 kommandos and the kopta to reliably do the 2 sec missions orks are pretty good at: engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers, as well as help with primaries. 3rd mission will be chosen on the spot.
Grots will deploy first scrambler, but perhaps I should just take another 5 kommandos instead, i don't really know.

What do you guys think ?

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

They are great regardless.

I've had so much success with Deff Koptas with *any* loadout. The rockets are nice if you want that utility pick, but having them as cheap as possible also makes it less painful to throw them away.

The Big shootas hit like a wet noodle, but for the 2-3 MSU koptas I bring, could those 30-45 points be used elsewhere? Probably. And I still get a unit that is just so bloody annoying.

Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless

I get it. They are in a really bad spot. It's really hard to justify paying points for them, although I generally like having big shootas for free. My recent run of a kannonwagon, I appreciated just having some extra free dakka, and I don't mind them on megatrakks.

I really hope they get a lot of love next codex. More shots, rend, and possibly a damage upgrade (if it's our analogous heavy bolter) would go a long way to making a bad weapon actually pretty decent, given we seem to be stuck with either them or rockets.

Given the context of "I want a small, cheap Fast Attack choice that goes really fast for board control purposes, even if damage potential is low," it sounds like Deffkoptas are still better than minimum size units of Stormboyz at their ridiculous 12ppm? Or is there more to be said for Stormboyz with their deepstrike ability and being ObSec in a Deathskullz army?

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Given the context of "I want a small, cheap Fast Attack choice that goes really fast for board control purposes, even if damage potential is low," it sounds like Deffkoptas are still better than minimum size units of Stormboyz at their ridiculous 12ppm? Or is there more to be said for Stormboyz with their deepstrike ability and being ObSec in a Deathskullz army?

To be honest, they don't really do the exact same thing. As you've noted, Stormboys can also get obsec... and they can also perform actions. Since they can also get a Saw / Klaw, they also can bloody certain targets.

Deff Koptas imo do the following:

1) Screen, be it Deep strike, smite, move blocking, etc.

2) Engage on all fronts. This can probably be done turn 1 too for a measly cost of 35 points, as they can auto advance 20/23". The Evil suns version, cheekily, can move 46" for 1 CP.

3) Tag. With their speed / fly and the ability to do ramming speed, it is trivial for them to tag some annoying targets. I've had some really clutch ramming speeds too to clear out move blocking vehicles.

Deff Koptas also have a much better defensive profile than 5 stormboyz. T5, 4 wounds, 4+ save actually requires a decent amount of bolter fire OR a proper heavy weapon to really deal with efficiently. This can be compounded by KFF or DS invul save.

tulun wrote:

Deff Koptas also have a much better defensive profile than 5 stormboyz. T5, 4 wounds, 4+ save actually requires a decent amount of bolter fire OR a proper heavy weapon to really deal with efficiently. This can be compounded by KFF or DS invul save.

Koptas as vehicle can also be Loot It! targets, offering a friendly unit a snazzy +1 save.

Yeah, tagging has always been a big strength of them. Our sisters player nearly went insane when I kept tagging his big blobs with a single kopta each.

 Jidmah wrote:
You are a decade too late for that. Orks have been losing options left and right ever since 7th.

since 2nd ed. O_o The 4th ed and 8th ed book brought a little back.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.

What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)

I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.

We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so

Madjob wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.

What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)

I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.

We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so

Well Warbikers dont have a single big shoota.... they have 2 dakkaguns which are 2 short ranged big shootas and even then 6 shots per bike doesnt add up to much.... 2 hits, 1 wound against your standard primaris which then he will probably pass all whilst we pay a hefty cost for our bikes compared to other factions and what they get rules, wargear and synergy wise. 27ppm is quite a lot for not much staying power or hitting power, hell our bikes arent even the fastest. A CSM biker is 28ppm, a Reaver 20ppm, Windrider 20ppm (30 with a shuriken cannon), Shining Spear 35ppm, Skyweaver 55ppm, Tomb Blade 25-30ppm, Vertus Praetor 95ppm, SM Bike 30ppm, RW Black Knight 40ppm, Outrider 45ppm, Atalan Jackals 15ppm, Serberys Raiders 16ppm, Sulphur Hounds 20ppm.

We arent exactly cheap. 3pts more gets you a SM biker with 1 extra wound, all the perks of being a SM with AoD, a flat 6" advance and better chapter tactics/strats in addition to just a better statline right out of the gate.

I dont think just increasing shots will work, some if not most of datasheets kind of need fundimental changes. First off just make exhaust cloud innate, our bikers have no special rules as it is unlike all these other bike units. Why do we have to pay a CP to make 1 bike unit puff out more smoke when all bikes should be gunning exhaust like its going out of style? If outriders get a charge mechanic, surely ork bikes should? Choppas need a AP, dakkaguns need some teeth.

Deffkoptas need a change too, they are great as 1 man units for objectives but 35pts for a 4 wound model that gives away Bring it Down and is an easy way to Grind them Down is super silly and it can be designed to be more than just a throwaway roadblock/secondary scorer. It needs to be a (jet)bike again. And (with all speed freak keyworded units) should have Exhaust Cloud baked into its rules. Give it a proper scout move instead of the outflank, give it some weapons worthy of firing and why arent the spinnin' blades atleast AP1.

I dont think just doubling the shots on our units is the right way to improve things. Id like to see big shootas be 4 shots with an AP of 1 atleast. Currently, an ironhail heavy stubber puts the big shoota to shame which is just sad.

I agree, I was using the Dakkaguns as an easy example of how just increasing the number of shots doesn't help - we already have a unit armed with the equivalent (range aside) to 6 shot Big Shootas, and we can see how just adding more shots is not sufficient to overcome our low BS and lack of AP. That said, yea, they're not exactly cost effective, you could afford two boyz with 6 shot Big Shootas for the price of one warbikers.

Yeah it's hard to deny that warbikers are in an abysmal place right now. As an assault unit they fail due to only having weak, low AP attacks. As a tank they're far to flimsy for their price to justify. As a shooting unit they lack accuracy and punch to really do anything against the weakest units. Pretty much everything they could do a big unit of shootaboyz with Da jump would be my preferred choice.

Maybe we'll luck out and this weekend's reveals will be a shiny ork codex for us to sink our fangs into.

Warbikers need a better melee weapon. I'm fine with boyz not getting ap1 on their melee, it could be kinda disgusting but warbikers need a boost.

Wonder if they got the +1Str +1Ap boost it would be enough. S6 w/ the strat at AP1 wouldnt be amazing but it would have some bite.

Madjob wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.

What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)

I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.

We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so

Ohh trust me I know. But if a standard Big shoota was assault 6 than at 5pts it would be worth its value (ish). And Imagine a Deffkopta with 12 shots, with DDD that is averaging 1 wound a turn against a SM stat line. I can only imagine the shock on a persons face when you tell them your Scrapjet gets 24 S5 shots, half of which are BS4

Not saying this would fix the issue, but its a step in the right direction. Conversely, what they might do is give us the Heavy bolter treatment and just make them D2, which has a similar effect as doubling ROF. I would prefer 6 shots and -1 AP as opposed to D2.

SemperMortis wrote:

Madjob wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.

That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.

What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)

I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.

We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so

Ohh trust me I know. But if a standard Big shoota was assault 6 than at 5pts it would be worth its value (ish). And Imagine a Deffkopta with 12 shots, with DDD that is averaging 1 wound a turn against a SM stat line. I can only imagine the shock on a persons face when you tell them your Scrapjet gets 24 S5 shots, half of which are BS4

Not saying this would fix the issue, but its a step in the right direction. Conversely, what they might do is give us the Heavy bolter treatment and just make them D2, which has a similar effect as doubling ROF. I would prefer 6 shots and -1 AP as opposed to D2.

Personally I wouldnt want 6 shot big shootas. It just becomes tedious rolling that many dice a turn for not much gain, I already watch marine players roll buckets of dice and it isnt fun. The big shoota needs stopping power and as orks we lack shooting with AP. Flashgitz fill that void currently but outside of them we dont have much AP shooting that isnt tied to mek guns or expensive units. The other thing they could do with big shootas to imitate the feel of mass shots is something like the boomstikks, +1 to hit at half range or whatever they shot at is -1 to hit as they get surpressed (make a strat like with the Skystalkers for admech).

A big shoota is strapped to pretty much everything, you dont want it to be oppressive and you have to think about it in regards to other shootas, what happens to a supa shoota? A dakkagun? Deffguns? 6 shots AP1 on mass would invalidate even more lootas and to some extent bikers as your just past a threshold of too many shots with AP.

If boyz instead got more special weapons options (like a new kit hopefully) that added burnas/deffguns/big choppas then we could have dedicated squads to take on 2 wound infantry or your guard equivalents

And if anyone says orks should be rolling buckets of dice.... that hasnt been a thing for our shooting for a long long time that's imperial armies that do that

The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.

*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*

that would be disgusting. It would make any attack with a bigshoota take about twice as long to resolve than it currently does.

Random can be fun, but random can also be extremely annoying.

 Jidmah wrote:
What's so bad about people always taking four big shootas all the time?

It essentially just allows people who have their wagons modeled in a different way to have less than four. I'm fairly sure all my big shoota gunners ended up being converted to other models, and you can only fit two on top and one on the 'ard case.

I'm sure you are fine with giving free rules for opponents then?

If it's not obvious why free rules with zero downsides you can "choose" to take is bad then no idea. If you don't want unit to pay anything it should just have 4 big shoota period without "option" to take 0 or 4.

It's basic game design ABC. If you support 0 point cost 0 downside upgrades you would make for super crappy game designer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that would be disgusting. It would make any attack with a bigshoota take about twice as long to resolve than it currently does.

Random can be fun, but random can also be extremely annoying.

Amen. Less dice rolling TYVM. Slows down, makes harder to get point cost right as well.