This is stupid

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**Frazzled**

I'm all for celebrating other countries' holidays on an unofficial basis (aka if its potato day that means its time for booze), but an offical holiday? Further, they were in rebellion. What part of TRAITORS do they not understand? I'm all for re-enactments, etc. etc. but this is just stupid.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090204/D964E6FO0.html

Bill would require paid Confederate holiday in SC

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Feb 3, 7:32 PM (ET)

By JIM DAVENPORT

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) - A black state senator is pushing a bill that would require South Carolina cities and counties to give their workers a paid day off for Confederate Memorial Day or lose millions in state funds.

Democratic Sen. Robert Ford's bill won initial approval from a Senate subcommittee Tuesday. It would force county and municipal governments to follow the schedule of holidays used by the state, which gives workers 12 paid days off, including May 10 to honor Confederate war dead. Mississippi and Alabama also recognize Confederate Memorial Day.

Years ago, Ford said, he pushed a bill to make both that day and Martin Luther King Jr. Day paid holidays. He considered it an effort to help people understand the history of both the civil rights movement and the Confederacy in a state where the Orders of Secession are engraved in marble in the Statehouse lobby, portraits of Confederate generals look down on legislators in their chambers and the Confederate flag flies outside.

"Every municipality and every citizen of South Carolina, should be, well, forced to respect these two days and learn what they can about those two particular parts of our history," Ford said Tuesday.

In a state steeped in a segregationist past, "there's no love in this state between black and white basically," he said. That's not apparent at the Statehouse, where black and white legislators get along, "but if you go out there in real South Carolina, it's hatred and I think we can bring our people together."

Lonnie Randolph, president of the state conference of NAACP branches, objected to that reasoning.

"Here Senator Ford is talking about the importance of race relations by forcing recognition of people who did everything they could to destroy another race - particularly those that look like I do," Randolph said. "You can't make dishonor honorable. It's impossible."

Ron Dorgay, a Sons of Confederate Veterans member from Elgin, said race relations have moved far from hatred but he hopes Ford's bill brings more understanding of the state's past.

"Even in school systems, they don't teach the correct history," Dorgay said.

Local governments, meanwhile, are seeing green, not race, when it comes to adding holidays to their calendars.

Large and small counties would put up more cash to cover holidays they don't now recognize, largely for law enforcement and emergency worker overtime, municipal and county association lobbyists said.

Only 10 of the state's 46 counties recognize Confederate Memorial Day and only 27 observe the more benign Presidents' Day.

Greenville County, one of the state's wealthiest and most populous counties, doesn't offer the Confederate holiday. The Judiciary Committee said the county would spend $156,900 to add each holiday to its calendar. Much smaller Laurens County would spend $37,080.

Ford dismissed the costs.

"The good outweighs any kind of rationale you can come up with," he said before the subcommittee sent the bill forward to the full Senate Judiciary Committee for debate, which won't happen until at least next week.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Glenn McConnell, R-Charleston, supports the bill - and holding back chunks of the more than $300 million the state sends local governments each year.

Counties and cities "should be respectful of that as political subdivisions of the state," said McConnell, a Civil War re-enactor who runs a Charleston Confederate wares gallery and on Tuesday fretted how new junk metal collection legislation might affect his cannon. "If they don't want to be a subdivision of the state, then don't take the money."

**Miguelsan**

I want a Celebrate Me holiday!

M.

**dienekes96**

Losers don't get to celebrate losing.

No Confederate holiday.

You have July 4th.

**Grignard**

First off, I really don't care what reason I have a day off. Any day I get paid for doing nothing at all is good, I don't care for what reason.

This man is just trying to stir the pot though. It seems like he has some sort of bone to pick or chip on his shoulder, and he is trying to make some sort of point by doing things to get people's ( and organizations ) attentions, like the NAACP.

**dietrich**

Government employees get too many holidays, and I can't imagine adding a controversial one to the mix. He'd get less resistance if he pushed through a bill letting employees use a floating holiday, vacation, or leave without pay to honor the holiday.

And I think all businesses should give veterans the day off on Veterans Day. When I'm king (and everyone should hope that never happens), that's one of the first rules that I'd pass.

**malfred**

If Juneteenth isn't a holiday, why would this be?

**dietrich**

I once tried claiming that I was a Wican and asked for Halloween off as a holiday, but offered that I would come work on Christmas day, when no one else was in the office, and 'work' that day instead. My boss didn't go for it.

And just to make it clear, I'm totally joking..........

**sexiest_hero**

I don't understand why the traitors still get to wave thier flag around let alone ask for a holiday. I can let slide re-creating battle were brother slew brother. But Isn't it time that the south, Along with the rest of America, Left the messy past behind. A few people still believe that the "South will rise again." For once I'm with Frazz 100%!

**dietrich**

sexiest_hero wrote:For once I'm with Frazz 100%!

Is that the first or second sign of the Apocalyse? Yesterday, I had to agree with Shuma - that might have been the first.

**Ensis Ferrae**

i do find it funny, and mildly ironic that the senator pushing for this bill is black... pushing for a bill to honor a segment of the country who turned traitor, in order to try and keep black people enslaved... irony doesnt begin to describe this to me.

of course, i only get federal holidays off, and unit 4 day weekends whenever the commander says we do, so it doesnt bother me to have time off... lawmakers on the other hand, i think do not work enough, they sit about yakking, and not conducting anything remotely productive to the governance of a state/country.

**sexiest_hero**

I think It's the 3rd I saw a couple of birds flying backwards the other day......

**Grignard**

sexiest_hero wrote:I don't understand why the traitors still get to wave thier flag around let alone ask for a holiday. I can let slide re-creating battle were brother slew brother. But Isn't it time that the south, Along with the rest of America, Left the messy past behind. A few people still believe that the "South will rise again." For once I'm with Frazz 100%!

You know, I can take exception to someone calling people who are in my family traitors. That is not the correct interpretation there. If that is the case, all americans traitors to the British crown. Civil war isn't treason, it is civil war.

There is a world of difference between someone walking down the street in a white hood and someone who has the stars and bars on their truck.

**Frazzled**

Respectfully,

They were traitors to the United States of America. Later they were pardoned. However, its an accurate statement. I'm ok with that and I had relatives from both sides in the conflict. I am proud of my Southern heritage but also ok to look at what happened dispassionately.

**Grignard**

Frazzled wrote:Respectfully,

They were traitors to the United States of America. Later they were pardoned. However, its an accurate statement. I'm ok with that and I had relatives from both sides in the conflict. I am proud of my Southern heritage but also ok to look at what happened dispassionately.

And I also fairly point out to people that at least half of the people at the time living where I am from were Unionists. Thats not the point. I don't equate treason and rebellion, unless you're defining treason as to whether or not you win.

**Kilkrazy**

There shouldn't be a holiday just for confederates. It should remember all war dead equally.

**Platuan4th**

Frazzled wrote:
I'm all for celebrating other countries' holidays on an unofficial basis (aka if its potato day that means its time for booze), but an offical holiday? Further, they were in rebellion. What part of TRAITORS do they not understand? I'm all for re-enactments, etc. etc. but this is just stupid.

Mississipi already lets state employees off for Confederate Memorial Day. I only know this because that happened to be the day that my wife went to get her new Driver's License
after we got married.

Grignard wrote:You know, I can take exception to someone calling people who are in my family traitors. That is not the correct interpretation there. If that is the case, all americans traitors to the British crown. Civil war isn't treason, it is civil war.

There is a world of difference between someone walking down the street in a white hood and someone who has the stars and bars on their truck.

The American Civil War was treason though. The issue was that(aside from Texas, Virgina, and New York) is it legal to secede from the Union. The Constitution says nothing about secession but does mention "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

The secession of the states neither alters nor abolishes the government, so the Union saw the secession as rebellion and not a separate sovereign nation(the fact that no foreign power would recognize the Confederate States was taken as evidence of this). As the arguably rightful government saw it as rebellion, it is in fact treason.

After the war, Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 was argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The Court held in a 5–3 decision that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".

And yes, we could be seen as traitors to the crown aside from the fact that we seceded from the Empire and were recognized as a sovereign power by foreign states.

**whatwhat**

Grignard wrote:You know, I can take exception to someone calling people who are in my family traitors. That is not the correct interpretation there. If that is the case, all americans traitors to the British crown. Civil war isn't treason, it is civil war.

There is a world of difference between someone walking down the street in a white hood and someone who has the stars and bars on their truck.

Frazzled wrote:Respectfully,

They were traitors to the United States of America. Later they were pardoned. However, its an accurate statement. I'm ok with that and I had relatives from both sides in the conflict. I am proud of my Southern heritage but also ok to look at what happened dispassionately.

And I also fairly point out to people that at least half of the people at the time living where I am from were Unionists. Thats not the point. I don't equate treason and rebellion, unless you're defining treason as to whether or not you win.

He said they were traiters to the united states, which they were. Just as my ancestors, the border reivers, were traitors to king james the 1st. The term traitor by itself is not a derogatory term. For example Oskar schindler was a traitor to the nazis, I doubt many view that as a derogatory remark.

So it's not unlikely people are going to wonder why you have taken offense to it.

**reds8n**

Grignard wrote:
, all americans are traitors to the British crown.

*files away for when the day comes.....*
...carry on...nothing to see here...

So....you don't have a day in rememberence of the civil war already then ? I was about to type that seems odd but I guess we don't have days comemorating our civil war/similar either.

**Lordhat**

Frazzled wrote:
I'm all for celebrating other countries' holidays on an unofficial basis (aka if its potato day that means its time for booze), but an offical holiday? Further, they were in rebellion. What part of TRAITORS do they not understand? I'm all for re-enactments, etc. etc. but this is just stupid.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090204/D964E6FO0.html

"Here Senator Ford is talking about the importance of race relations by forcing recognition of people who did everything they could to destroy another race - particularly those that look like I do," Randolph said. "You can't make dishonor honorable. It's impossible."

LOL this me laugh. It's not like he was telling jews to clebrate Adolph Hitler. The Confederacy was formed due to issues about the rights of indivudual States versus the Union as a whole. Slavery wasn't a major concern to EITHER side until Licoln (more likely his advisors) hit upon the idea to get them to revolt, hence the emancipation proclamation.

Now we can all agree that slavery is a bad, bad, thing, but it WASN'T the cause of the civil war, and the Confederacy wasn't fighting against the freeing of all the slaves (who weren't all black, or even non-white. Indentured servitude may have been prettied up but it was still slavery), nor were they out to 'destroy another race'. They just wanted industrialization.

**Lordhat**

dietrich wrote:I once tried claiming that I was a Wican and asked for Halloween off as a holiday, but offered that I would come work on Christmas day, when no one else was in the office, and 'work' that day instead. My boss didn't go for it.

And just to make it clear, I'm totally joking..........

Legally he has to give the day off. I use religion as a way to get my D&D day off every week. "Religious purposes"(hey I DO game religiously!). Not only do they HAVE to give you the day off, but they aren't even allowed to ASK about your religion if you don't mention what it is.

**reds8n**

Legally he has to give the day off. I use religion as a way to get my D&D day off every week.

...really ? That's golden !

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

So, in Judaism, Friday is the Sabbath. One would assume that Jewish employees have Fridays off? Or do they not really bother?

**Frazzled**

Er, Saturday is the Sabbath MDG.

The argument that slavery is not issue is belied by the fact that the election of the first Republican (an anti slavery party at the time) immediately led to secession.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Sorry. My mistake.

Could have sworn it was the Friday. Perhaps thats Islam instead, or just the feotid imaginings of my mind.

**dienekes96**

The court case mentioned above is from 1869, and the American Civil War ended in 1865. So clearly the rights of states were not so clearly defined in 1861. I think calling secessionists "traitors" is misusing the word, and giving very short shrift to the seismic issues facing 1860 America.

You will find no greater celebrant of Abraham Lincoln than I. He is the greatest single "thing" (person, place, invention) my country has ever produced, save our Constitution. But the men who opposed him did so on their own principle, and their own belief in what the law of the land dictated. They were wrong, and they paid the price for it. The country as a whole did. Read Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address for a nice, tidy little rundown.

They should not get the holiday because, as I said, LOSERS.

And second, they have thye day. It is called Veteran's Day. They even have a back-up called Memorial Day.

**reds8n**

Starts Friday night from memory...when the first stars appear in the sky "officially", until the same time Saturday.

**Grignard**

whatwhat wrote:
Grignard wrote:You know, I can take exception to someone calling people who are in my family traitors. That is not the correct interpretation there. If that is the case, all americans traitors to the British crown. Civil war isn't treason, it is civil war.

There is a world of difference between someone walking down the street in a white hood and someone who has the stars and bars on their truck.

Frazzled wrote:Respectfully,

They were traitors to the United States of America. Later they were pardoned. However, its an accurate statement. I'm ok with that and I had relatives from both sides in the conflict. I am proud of my Southern heritage but also ok to look at what happened dispassionately.

And I also fairly point out to people that at least half of the people at the time living where I am from were Unionists. Thats not the point. I don't equate treason and rebellion, unless you're defining treason as to whether or not you win.

He said they were traiters to the united states, which they were. Just as my ancestors, the border reivers, were traitors to king james the 1st. The term traitor by itself is not a derogatory term. For example Oskar schindler was a traitor to the nazis, I doubt many view that as a derogatory remark.

So it's not unlikely people are going to wonder why you have taken offense to it.

Looking at it that way, I suppose I can see that. The orignial argument though *is* stupid, I think the idea of allowing people to use a moving holiday is a better idea. Like I said, this is just someone who is stirring the pot. I don't know what this guy's alterior motive is, or even if it is a motive more than attention, but there is some reason for it. I presume it is to do just what he's done, to get the attention of someone like the NAACP and make a scene. Stirring the pot.

**dietrich**

The guy's alterior motive is most likely to draw attention to himself so when he runs for a bigger office in a few years, people know the name. Well, that's my cynical answer.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Sorry. My mistake.

Could have sworn it was the Friday. Perhaps thats Islam instead, or just the feotid imaginings of my mind.

yep, you're thinking Islam. Even if you never look at a calendar over here, you always know when its friday, because of the increased number in PA system uses, for the call to prayer and preaching over the "vox-horn"

besides, we all know from many different history lessons that Traitors and Heroes are determined largely by the winner, and therefore the history writers.

**Frazzled**

Thats true.