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After putting some thought into it, I don't see wraithguard as being particularly problematic with their base gun, D or no D. Why? Because at what point does it cease to matter how dead that one target you shot at is?

Eldar already have a unit that will wipe big monsters and big vehicles from thw board with equal ease. This unit is called Fire Dragons, and with the new formation rules, they will be rocking a BS of 5. If I shoot your tank with equal points of fire dragons or wraithguard, is it less dead from the one than the other? If your model is immune to melta, sure, but in most cases, the difference seems largely semantic.

www.communitycomp.org

That is the Aussie group that started the 40k comp system for anyone that is interested, they are pretty strict with comp points already, i am.... very interested? to see how harsh they are with the Eldar codex.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.

40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.

Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.

It makes me laugh that people can't read.

I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.

40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.

Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.

It makes me laugh that people can't read.

I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.

It wasn't aimed just at you. It gets said a lot. I actually agree that banning the dex wholesale isn't a good idea. But we shouldn't have to fix the game in the first place. If I'm spending £35 for a codex it should come fully fixed.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?

I distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine many years ago when we were doing our own version of 40K. He was writing our Eldar Codex and we got into a discussion over whether Exarchs should have 2 wounds. I convinced him they shouldn't based on the fact that:

1. Marine Sergeants, super-humans genetically altered to do nothing but fight wars, and the leader variety, didn't have 2 wounds, and cost about the same in points.
2. Ork Nobz, who did have two wounds, were just more massive, justifying their W2.

And now here we are - Exarchs have two wounds. He would laugh and laugh if he saw this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?

I distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine many years ago when we were doing our own version of 40K. He was writing our Eldar Codex and we got into a discussion over whether Exarchs should have 2 wounds. I convinced him they shouldn't based on the fact that:

1. Marine Sergeants, super-humans genetically altered to do nothing but fight wars, and the leader variety, didn't have 2 wounds, and cost about the same in points.
2. Ork Nobz, who did have two wounds, were just more massive, justifying their W2.

And now here we are - Exarchs have two wounds. He would laugh and laugh if he saw this.

Exarchs, Skitarii Alpha's... Is this a new trend for sarges to make them useful?

The thought did cross my mind, but as I keep saying: GW's only trend is a lack of trends. Don't expect anything.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As I keep saying: GW's only trend is a lack of trends. Don't expect anything.

Ugh, good point. In any average company you'd be able to identify trends. In GW you get lucky if you get balance.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.

40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.

Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.

It makes me laugh that people can't read.

I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.

I agree. Some people are starting to sound more and more like "I can't win, ban it!" babies. So ban the new codex and then what's next? What about the next dex GW releases? Ban riptides because they are invincible in your meta? What about Nurgle, I don't like Nurgle so let's ban Deathguard lists...

This is not the 1st time a codex has been deviled before having all the info so people should wait and see before going off half-cocked, plus other mathhammer deathstars also seemed unbeatable at the time only to be hard countered once people knew how to play against them. Does nobody remember the ruckus with the prior GK dex?

M.

Yup keep banning everything until all that is left is Sisters. Then and only then will GW come out with Sisters.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.

40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.

Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.

It makes me laugh that people can't read.

I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.

I agree. Some people are starting to sound more and more like "I can't win, ban it!" babies. So ban the new codex and then what's next? What about the next dex GW releases? Ban riptides because they are invincible in your meta? What about Nurgle, I don't like Nurgle so let's ban Deathguard lists...

This is not the 1st time a codex has been deviled before having all the info so people should wait and see before going off half-cocked, plus other mathhammer deathstars also seemed unbeatable at the time only to be hard countered once people knew how to play against them. Does nobody remember the ruckus with the prior GK dex?

M.

While I agree with all the complaining about the Eldar book, in my opinion, the wanting to ban this codex doesn't come solely on the fact that it is ridiculously OP. For me, it stems from the fact that it gaks on every other army's units. Troop choices? Yeah, 7th edition books will have less of them. Eldar? Jetbikes with Heavy weapons galore and Obj Sec. Strength D in regular games and codexes? Alright, here's one unit with it in melee, or a random shooting attack. Eldar? Here's a gak ton of it. OP cheese being nerfed? MSS gone, Tesla nerfed, JotWW nerfed, ext. Eldar? Wave Serpent is still just as good, barely receiving a nerf, and got cheaper. Everything else appears to have gotten better. Super Heavies in regular games? Sure, but they'll usually be appropriately costed and more balanced towards regular games (Obelisk, being very tame and just shooting AP- tesla, is 300 points). Eldar? Here's a 295 point unit that was already being spammed because of its goodness, thats now better and actually cheaper than it was.

Point is, Eldar were already on top. Long range firepower, very devastating firepower, sheer weight of high strength firepower, mobility, durability, psychic powers, special rules, ext. Eldar had it all, and it's even worse now. How are Dark Eldar players suppose to feel? Or Ork players? Hell, I play Necrons (sure, go ahead and say my opinion doesn't matter on this subject), and I don't like the idea of playing against an army that invalidates my army wide special rules. (Massed Strength D ignores my only special rule, and doesn't give a gak about how tough my vehicles are.)

The sheer power level of this codex isn't necessarily the only factor in this rage at the moment. Its the fact that no other codex has received any amount of the same attention (Even Nercons, being very well balanced internally, are not game-breakingly strong. They're just tough units). What's there to say about Chaos as well? Khorne Daemonkin is nowhere near this level, which also doesn't bode well for future Chaos releases.

The fact there's so much doom and gloom about this codex release is hilarious.

Well, i don't see much trouble with 7-th eldar dex, to be honest. We won't go in for: ban this unit, restrict scatter lasers, etc. We'll just stick to 6-th eldar dex - it's allready good enough for power-gamers and not bad enough to face for others.

Perhaps the single most telling thing that shows how bad this is that people are seriously suggesting that Eldar Players stick to the OP 6th Ed Codex instead of this monstrosity with the old Cheese Serpents etc now being the lower tier for the powergamers...........

We I guess Eldar have evolved from:

"Wave Serpents - the hard counter to fun" to

"Eldar: the hard counter to Balance..................

Iuchiban is back and answers questions with the Codex book in hands

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent/page92


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by ZeroNoRyouki
Thank you again!
How the Warlock council work now?
Holofields: are they a 5+ inv like in the Harlequins codex? For how many points?
Is there anything that got worse at all?

Warlock conclave Works as a single psyker. 1-3 Lvl1, 4-6 Lvl2, 7+ Lvl 3. They can choose Sacred Daemonlogy and Battle Runes.
Holofields are 5++
Worst things? All is known already: Laser lock is gone and Serpent shields got nerfed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by Archonon
What about Ghosthelm, and all runes ?

Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by ZeroNoRyouki
Also, any changes for the Autharc and excharh powers?

Exarch powers, as we all know them are gone. Now all aspects get a new ability for free. Exarch get for free another one (free as well). And they have 2W.
Autarchs are pretty much the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by totgeboren
Do you lose the Serpent Shield for the rest of the game if you shoot it? That is, do you lose the protective aspect of it too if you fire it (since it is one-use only).

Yes. If the shield is fired, you lose it for the rest of the game.

"Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."

That... is hilarious.

Well at least now you lose it all once you fire the serpent shield. That is a much bigger nerf then previously thought and while it doesn't justify the 15(?) point drop it certainly makes it better to swallow.

The shield is 24" and one use only, and Laser Lock is gone. IMO the Serpent is fixed 100%, which sadly doesn't help matters much.

Mymearan wrote:
"Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."

That... is hilarious.

He got me at the "Farseer can spend one warp point to ignore the wound"....

The rest is pretty ridiculous but follows the lines of the codex along with the dominant psychic race of the galaxy, now with extra str6 weaponry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 arinnoor wrote:
Well at least now you lose it all once you fire the serpent shield. That is a much bigger nerf then previously thought and while it doesn't justify the 15(?) point drop it certainly makes it better to swallow.

Basically you get to fire them in your last round if you are going second pretty safely so I can say it is quite fixed.

After giving this a bit of though i'm no longer so negative about it. At least i no longer deem necessary reverting to Codex: Wave Serpent.

Let's do a bit of an analysis, trying to follow this concept:

What is good to the gameplay and fun factor of a friendly/semicompetitive /competitive game? Those are the vast majority of the games being played after all.
I'll go through perceived problems one by one.

1) D Template Wraithguards: A min unit dropped with DE ally can take out pretty much any model in game. The chance to take out a land raider is close to 100% with 5 guys, but the unit also costs more than a LR. Something bigger can counter an AD Lance with ease, but the cost starts getting high. Contrarily to the Farsight bomb, they have no mobility to get out of there, and no uber commander to increase survivability. Once dropped they are dead. Taking a squad would be betting on the chance that the enemy is bringing a suitable target, I.E. a model/unit where i can apply 300-350 points of damage in a shooting phase, or is using an army that can't shut them down reliably before a second shooting phase comes. This makes them the counter to:

a) Knights and AD Lance in particular
b) Decurion, they negate their resilience and have good chances to get a second round of shooting (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
c) Tank units
d) Nice way to get rid of Thunderfire cannons
e) Thunderwolves
f) Any deathstar if you can negate invisibility (highly possible with eldar)

In conclusion those guys punish cheese choices (with the exception of point C, poor guards). I dont' see a reason why i wouldn't like to see those in my LGS.

2) A similar analysis can be done on the Hemlock. Sure it has scary firepower, but again we are talking about a lot of points for a 10/10/10, and those blasts can miss. High risk/high reward unit. I like it.

3) Vaul's wrath. If the points remain the same then those things have a scary amount of firepower for their cost. Will have to see the details. There again, they have range 24 on an artillery, so they do have some drawbacks.

4) Bikes. No excuses here, they need something to keep them in check.
5) WKs. No counters in the game except for one unit in one codex that is already getting abused. Exceedingly undercoster. Definitely no go.



So in conclusion:

1) No WKs.
2) 1 in 3 weapons for bikes

And nothing else. With those rulings, the eldar look like a really fun army to play against, and at the same time "heal" our competitive meta a bit, by adding counters to the most cheesy lists. Sure they do have counter to anything in the game and always in a cost efficient way, but that's the eldar's way of doing things. It's not like they don't pay a price on model costs and durability for that. They are the faction that can reap nice rewards but heavily punishes any mistake. What's not to like?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
"Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."

That... is hilarious.

I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.

Let's go

Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++

Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.

Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll

Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS

Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests

Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

Fun(tm), even if you stay from Wraithstuff or Scatterbikes.

BS5 Fire Dragons with no-scatter Falcon Deepstrike (or WWP) got even better.

Perils - yes. He made it more clear in a later post.

Aspect Warrior rules

Originally Posted by cob
What sort of abilities if you dont mind illuminating us? USRs?
Let's go

Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++

Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L

Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.

Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll

Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS

Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests

Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate

Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by RedemptionNL
- Does Illic now have a Destroyer strength sniper rifle?
- Rangers; any changes? Upgrade to Pathfinders still possible?
- Warlock council; squad size?
- Exarch powers? Do all Exarchs now have Battle Fortune or just the DA one?

Illic weapon is NOT D. He always has precision shots. If the joins a unit of Rangers, all the models in the unit get this ability
Rangers have Shrouded

Spoletta wrote:
(wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)

Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.

I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.

You don't even have any warp charge points in any other phase than the psychic phase anyway. But yeah, he clarified that it was perils only.

I'm actually loving all those Aspect rules. They fixed Banshees and buffed Scorpions, now all Aspects seem useful. Don't see the need for the Fire Dragon buff, but oh well. Maybe an all-aspect force could be viable, fun and not seen as super cheesy?

Oh and they made Rangers better! The sad thing is that apart from bikes and Wraith-units, this codex seems a lot of fun.

Good god the raggggge and sweet salty tears, which is especially amusing considering a number of the anti-eldar people have previously mentioned playing centstar and other cheese builds.

So honestly I think much of the whining is from people that have found there cheese countered.

Also look on the bright side wave serpents got mauled with a nerf bat like everyone wanted.

Those aspect rules seem pretty cool. At first I thought the codex was largely unchanged from the previous one, but at least there seems to be quite a few things to play around with.

Gutted I didn't pick up on this rumour sooner so I could have sold my old Eldar Codex.

Any word on what Autarchs do? I quite like the new model and the +1/-1 to reserves was really useful for a Dark Eldar Allied army I had in mind.

Point costs etc for Vehicle upgrades -> http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407490-Eldar-imminent&p=7427071&viewfull=1#post7427071


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Originally Posted by Minsc
He's translating for us, so most likely -2 Ld. Seems logical considering that they have Fear.

I'm so happy right now, Howling Banshee's wont be a pointsink this edition!

Edit: Got ninjaed by the man himself.



Nice, Vyper's are cheaper.
Otherwise it seems like GW recycled most of our old upgrades.

So, this is a longshot Iuchiban, but I'm assuming that since you didn't list Holofield amonst the vehicle-upgrades, that means that all Eldar skimmers either come with it by deafult, or have no option to get it?

Forgot that one. Holofields + 15 points. Fliers cannot purchase it.

 Redemption wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
(wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)

Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.

But Wraiths are pretty much the epitome of (pre-Eldar) cheese (and would likely get Scatter-biked to death by any 7th-Eldar player).

What about Genestealers? Ork Bikers? Bloodcrushers? Ya know.... all your good ol' average 40K-stuff. Even an Imperial Knight is more likely to die in overwatch than not.

 Redemption wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
(wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)

Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.

I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.

You don't even have any warp charge points in any other phase than the psychic phase anyway. But yeah, he clarified that it was perils only.

Oh that's right, i forgot that they still wound on 3+. So yes, wraiths can counter them.

Add to that though that eldars are also a counter to flyrants with the new dark reapers, so they are shaping to be really good for our meta.

 MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Well, personally I think the balance problem of 40k is mainly NOT related to the rules. Most of the problems just come from some ...(fill in an unkind word for guys with minor intelligence) rolling a D6 to determine point costs of a unit. But this is something that can be fixed. The easiest way to do so is introducing a handicap related to the power level of the codices.

So just an example with some made up numbers:

Eldar 0.83
Orks 1.3

If the tournament says 1850 points, you just multiply that number with the handicap and get a new maximum point value for each army. So in this example orks are allowed to field 2405 points while Eldar just get 1536 points. As I said, the numbers are totally made up and not based on a realistic codex analysis.

I agree that handicap system would be a nice, simple way to balance things out. You could take something like a huge bunch of games, for example combine some big tournie preliminaries, then adjust the handicap based on faction win probability until you get close to an even ~0.5 win chance for every main faction. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but probably the optimal considering the effort spent, and would do the job of getting the power levels closer than currently.

If you wanted it perfect, you could of course take all the codexes, analyse them through, calculate everything.. but that would take months and essentially be rewriting all the codex entries. After that, you'd need to distribute all that stuff to everyone - pretty much impossible for pickup games etc. - and everyone would need to rebuild their lists. Handicap numbers are super simple, just one number for each faction and that's it. Really easy to adopt by anyone, and you can even edit your army list on the fly.