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Without further ado:

Headquarters
2x Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission

Troops
2x 7 Plague Marines with 2 Meltaguns, Personal Icon, and Champion with Powerfist
1x 7 Plague Marines with 2 Flamers, Personal Icon, and Champion with Powerfist
-Each squad has its own Rhino with Daemonic Possession, Dozerblade, and Pintle twin-linked bolter-

Heavy Support
3x 3 Obliterator Cult

Yup, thats all she wrote. I'm thinking that each squad is hearty enough and with mass oblits and lashing around I can keep things manageable. C&C please.

Only criticism drop all the upgrades on the Rhinos and the Personal Icons, for Rhinos they are simply not needed your get smokes for free, also the Icons are not needed and you have no Daemons for them to be summoned off.

Just adding some more Plague Marines you may even be able to jig the points around and get another squad in there.

Icon's for (if needed) guarenteed oblit Deepstriking

I wouldn't bother DSing your oblits - the more turns they're on the board, the more shots they can do, and the more dead menz that can result.

dozer blades are pretty much unneccessary. drop them, and perhaps the second twin linked bolters, and add more PM's. personal Icons -- if you're going to take any, just take one. it's all you really need.

mmm. Thanks. Im big on keeping demonic posession as even WITH smoke its only 50% shot negation. I'd still rather not ever worry about 1's and 2's on the damage chart.

PM = 23
Dozer blade = 5
Pintle twin-linked bolter = 5
Personal Icon = 5

So, at most I have 45+2. (luckily this list ends up at 1848) Just enough for 2 more PM's. Both in the close combatish flamer squad? or evenly over the two melta squads?

No Demon Princes ....Jump Pack sorc are better.
Hop from squad to squad .

Oblits hide behind your plague marines and plasma blast what ever.
Deep striking will expose them and isolate them to mass fire which will drop them quickly.

More attacks, more wounds, more WS, more toughness, more strength. Why pick the sorc vs the prince?

IMHO, that's a decent list..... apart from the personal icons.. drop them.

Deewalla wrote:More attacks, more wounds, more WS, more toughness, more strength. Why pick the sorc vs the prince?

Also look at it like this, Lash Sorcerer = 145pts, Lash Prince = 155pts

I know which one i'm taking

@99MDeery: erm, I think you're agreeing with me, but not sure.

Here's my thoughts on Prince vs Sorc.

Prince:
(PRO) +2 WS, +2 Str, +1 A, +1 T, +1 W. It's also Fearless, Immortal Warrior, and a Monsterous Creature. That MC CCW is also very nice.
(CON) It's a Monsterous Creature... so can't join units, won't have much cover ever. It also cannot take any more wargear then it already has, and cost 10 points more then the Sorc.

Sorc:
(PRO) Is infantry, so can join the troops and reduce it's ability to be picked out. Can take more wargear and options then the Prince. Force Weapon can instant kill. Is cheaper then the Prince by 10 points, smaller too.
(CON) Can be instant killed, if takes Wings or Jump Pack can't ride in the Rhino with the troops so would have to run behind the transport. Weaker stat line then the Prince.

Taking one of each might be a good choice.... One can join a squad and be protected while the other is a DP and isn't. This way if the DP goes down, you still got one protected in a squad of bodies?

Yeh I am agreeing with you, Princes are overall better, I tend to use my 2 Lash Princes together when both of em charge an Ork Unit there aint enough Orks left to deal enough damage back, Sorcerers are just too fragile and not effective in combat

The Sorcerer can enter a transport if he has Wings. Not so much if he has a Jump Pack. Of course, you have to model the difference, but that's why GW invented the Possessed Chaos Space Marine Winged-backpack.

The Sorcerer's advantages over a Daemon Prince can be summed up as:

Independent Character (enter transports, join units, move through cover, skilled rider, not a big obvious target, etc)
Terminator Armour (and thus possible Plasma, Melta, or Flamer Combi-Weapon)
Steeds of Chaos
Bikes
Personal Icon
More Psychic Powers (via Familiar, Force Weapon)

If not being Fearless is a problem, have the Sorcerer join a Fearless unit.

Lash of Submission is a bad idea for Daemon Princes since the power has a short range, requires line of sight, and cannot be used in close combat. If your Daemon Prince is not in close combat, its increased WS, S, and I (thanks to the Mark of Slaanesh) are useless.

While it has +1T and +1W, it'll need them against all the shooting weaponry that will be able to hit it while it's exposed. And while the Daemon Prince has A4, the Sorcerer has a Force weapon and a Pistol if you don't take Terminator Armour, for four attacks. Furthermore Wings are necessary for a Daemon Prince to be effective, while Sorcerers have more options such as Bikes, Steeds, and transports. You could hide a Daemon Prince behind a Land Raider, but you would do better to simply put a Sorcerer inside of the Land Raider.

If a Daemon Prince takes a Lash of Submission, it cannot take another psychic power, which leaves it useless if the enemy is mechanized, like it should be in 5th edition.

Finally, all the weapons that excel at taking down Daemon Princes also excel at taking down Plague Marines, and Obliterators. Your list is practically begging for your opponent to spam Plasma, Power weapons, and Assault troops. Just about everyone has seen and played against the Lash Spam list. If it's still competitive in your area, go for it. Otherwise you may win the Sportsmanship award for providing a one-trick pony for your opponents to buff their scores with.

Nurglitch wrote:The Sorcerer can enter a transport if he has Wings. Not so much if he has a Jump Pack. Of course, you have to model the difference, but that's why GW invented the Possessed Chaos Space Marine Winged-backpack.

The Sorcerer's advantages over a Daemon Prince can be summed up as:

Independent Character (enter transports, join units, move through cover, skilled rider, not a big obvious target, etc)
Terminator Armour (and thus possible Plasma, Melta, or Flamer Combi-Weapon)
Steeds of Chaos
Bikes
Personal Icon
More Psychic Powers (via Familiar, Force Weapon)

If not being Fearless is a problem, have the Sorcerer join a Fearless unit.

Lash of Submission is a bad idea for Daemon Princes since the power has a short range, requires line of sight, and cannot be used in close combat. If your Daemon Prince is not in close combat, its increased WS, S, and I (thanks to the Mark of Slaanesh) are useless.

While it has +1T and +1W, it'll need them against all the shooting weaponry that will be able to hit it while it's exposed. And while the Daemon Prince has A4, the Sorcerer has a Force weapon and a Pistol if you don't take Terminator Armour, for four attacks. Furthermore Wings are necessary for a Daemon Prince to be effective, while Sorcerers have more options such as Bikes, Steeds, and transports. You could hide a Daemon Prince behind a Land Raider, but you would do better to simply put a Sorcerer inside of the Land Raider.

If a Daemon Prince takes a Lash of Submission, it cannot take another psychic power, which leaves it useless if the enemy is mechanized, like it should be in 5th edition.

Finally, all the weapons that excel at taking down Daemon Princes also excel at taking down Plague Marines, and Obliterators. Your list is practically begging for your opponent to spam Plasma, Power weapons, and Assault troops. Just about everyone has seen and played against the Lash Spam list. If it's still competitive in your area, go for it. Otherwise you may win the Sportsmanship award for providing a one-trick pony for your opponents to buff their scores with.

I am stunned by that post. I have played with both extensively, and the Daemon Prince in a lash list is a no brainer. If your argument is that everyone brings plasma and power weapons, it will kill ANY lash list, be it daemon or sorcerer. Mechanized is not bad to deal with at all, the oblits pop the rhinos and the prince lashes them to where they need to be. To make a sorcerer with more psychic abilities, wings, a familiar... you spend WAYYY more points than the prince. My princes frequently jump into combat - it is one of the primary reasons for taking them. They cannot be insta killed and they mow bodies. A smart player jumps into combat that is more than likely going to resolve in the opponents turn, and the prince flies to another combat or safety.

Perhaps knowing how to properly play a prince in a lash list is more critical, but sorcerers are just too easy to kill. You will lose one of the two princes, that is a given, but as long as he gets a couple hundred points in kills, he did his job. A sorcerer in a lash list finds his home in 2000 point lists, now the lower point packages.

No, my argument is that a Daemon Prince is a big fat target that dies to shooting, doesn't synergize its close combat potential with its psychic power, and wastes points.

If you're going to value a Daemon Prince by the number of points in the opposing army it is instrumental in killing, you've already failed in 5th edition where the important things are kill points and objectives. As for popping Rhinos, you know this is 5th edition right? 5th edition is about Land Raiders.

Good luck killing four Land Raiders before they waste, in order, your Obliterators, your Princes, and then deliver the Terminators that will annihilate your Plague Marines before delivering the troops to capture your objectives.

@Nurglitch:
Thanks for the view. Truthfully, I never thought of using the Sorc. Upon thinking of the armies and their composition that come to every Tourny we have at our Local Game Store I think I'm going to stick with the Princes. Maybe New Hampshire is just behind the rest of the world, and maybe the group of people that get together at the Store even more-so. So far the people who are competeing for 1st and 2nd every tourny here is an Ork list and this Daemon player who runs Masque, 3 squads of 18(or about) Daemonettes, and two Soulgrinders. We've got a TFG who show's up with his half-arsed lash-ish list, but he really never makes it far. Few space marine players. Another daemon player too. So far... infact... I own the most AV 14 in the Store. As the resident IG treadhead, I've brought mechinized, and armour-company. Heck, I've even brought conscript spam for fun.

This list is for my Adepticus Mechanicus army I'm making. So most of the models are converted with lots of painting detail too. I'll update my P&M blog soon too.

Thanks for the feedback all.

-Deewalla

Nurglitch wrote:The Sorcerer can enter a transport if he has Wings. Not so much if he has a Jump Pack. Of course, you have to model the difference, but that's why GW invented the Possessed Chaos Space Marine Winged-backpack.

The Sorcerer's advantages over a Daemon Prince can be summed up as:

Independent Character (enter transports, join units, move through cover, skilled rider, not a big obvious target, etc)
Terminator Armour (and thus possible Plasma, Melta, or Flamer Combi-Weapon)
Steeds of Chaos
Bikes
Personal Icon
More Psychic Powers (via Familiar, Force Weapon)

If not being Fearless is a problem, have the Sorcerer join a Fearless unit.

Lash of Submission is a bad idea for Daemon Princes since the power has a short range, requires line of sight, and cannot be used in close combat. If your Daemon Prince is not in close combat, its increased WS, S, and I (thanks to the Mark of Slaanesh) are useless.

While it has +1T and +1W, it'll need them against all the shooting weaponry that will be able to hit it while it's exposed. And while the Daemon Prince has A4, the Sorcerer has a Force weapon and a Pistol if you don't take Terminator Armour, for four attacks. Furthermore Wings are necessary for a Daemon Prince to be effective, while Sorcerers have more options such as Bikes, Steeds, and transports. You could hide a Daemon Prince behind a Land Raider, but you would do better to simply put a Sorcerer inside of the Land Raider.

If a Daemon Prince takes a Lash of Submission, it cannot take another psychic power, which leaves it useless if the enemy is mechanized, like it should be in 5th edition.

Finally, all the weapons that excel at taking down Daemon Princes also excel at taking down Plague Marines, and Obliterators. Your list is practically begging for your opponent to spam Plasma, Power weapons, and Assault troops. Just about everyone has seen and played against the Lash Spam list. If it's still competitive in your area, go for it. Otherwise you may win the Sportsmanship award for providing a one-trick pony for your opponents to buff their scores with.

This is the most insightful post Nurglich has made in recent memory. Learn from it well.

Well, while I might have already paid for all the bits I was going to make my Princes out of I havent completed them. If the Princes got dropped to Sorcs. I would have 67 points left over (was planning on spending on 2 Plague Marines). Would there be better places to put it? Familars? Wargear?

-Deewalla

I would stick with the princes.

G

Are you sure that you didn't just copy this from white dwarf issue 342?

Looks good. Keep the DP, as Sorcerers can be instantly killed.

Nine Obliterators are a bit much for what they can achieve. I'd drop three of them and add either a LR or some Raptors/Termies.

Nurglich's point is invalid - everything he says would have no bearing on your list if you changed from princes to sorcerers. 4 Land raiders ( you will not see 4 land raiders often at all - I have seen 3 and still beat the list with 2 dp) will be hell on ANY lash list.

Sure princes are big targets, learn how to use cover and play with them properly. I just don't understand what the problem with close combat is with the prince either - a naked prince in combat is a killing machine. How does +1 initiative not synergize well?

As for your comment "you have already lost", you say very intelligent things and then stupify yourself a sentence later. If you are not building your list based on the points of the game then YOU, my fiend, have already lost.

If you are playing below 1750, then DP are superior to sorcerers. 2000 and above, sorcerers become a valid choice.

Remember that lash is a utility power. It needs to have things to use with it. On its own it does nothing.

The point that people make about princes dying quickly when compared to a sorcerer in a squad is completely true, but it is still favourable to the alternative. Princes will eat anti-tank fire in the game, this is unavoidable, but if the princes are not there the anti-tank fire will be directed towards your far more precious obliterators and rhinos. It is much more vital that these survive than a lash carrier because lash on its own cant kill anything or hold objectives.

Against mechanised armies princes again come out on top because they, unlike sorcerers, are very capable of killing vehicles by themselves. Four S6+2d6 attacks are much better than one S8+2d6 attack.

Finally princes are much better at killing things in combat. Force weapons are good at killing enemy characters and MCs if you roll well. Demon princes are good at killing everything.

Stick with princes

Ok, a revised listing:

Headquarters
2x Daemon Prince with Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission

Troops
2x 7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Powerfist
1x 7 Plague Marines, 2 Flamers, Champion with Powerfist
-Each squad has its own Rhino with Daemonic Possession-

Heavy Support
3x 3 Obliterator Cult

But that does put 47 points on the board to play with....

Thanks to all, the C&C is welcomed.

@Regwon:
Yeah... Lash will need things to lash around. I hope to learn how to utilize them effectivly, and make sure they are in CC during the opponents shooting phase. CC they can win at too.

@Inigo Montoya:
I don't think I'll be seeing 4 LR's soon either, but who knows. Being that these Daemon Princes are conversion jobs, while still on the same base and similar size, I think my model will come out a tad smaller and more compact. Not fully exploiting using modeling to my advantage, but it'll help keep my "Daemon Prince" alive a little longer gaining cover from things a GW Daemon Prince might not. As for points, this is all based around 1850 (Was originally 1500, so have been wishy washy about what to do with this other 350 points)

@Wuestenfux:
Thanks, like I've said earlier, I'll have to get more pictures up with the conversion work, and paint that has been done. Oddly, my 1500 list had only 6 Obliterator Cult, thus my Forge World order was for 6. With that said, I'd gladly (as I wouldn't have to speed order more FW stuff asap) drop 3 oblits, gaining me 225 points. Coupled with the 47 I already have floating, what would you do with 272 points?

@Illuknisaa:
Checked my White Dwarf collection, and sadly I do not have issue 342. Closest I found was 345. My inspiration for modeling this army did come from Dave Taylor's beautiful Adeptus Mechanicus army featured in WD308. Infact my Obliterators will almost be carbon copys of his Obliterator Cult conversion. The list itself was aiming for the "classic" build of dual lash.

@Green Blow Fly:
Thanks, yeah the more waffle about it, the less time I'm modeling, converting, greenstuffing, pinning, glueing and painting.

-Deewalla

Well if you want to keep the 3 oblitz you could just switch out 1 of the melta squads with plasma's...really not much you can do besides some cheap wargear in a chaos list.

If you drop the oblits perhaps you could squeek in another PM squad and rhino (no dex on hand).

Ooh, quick side thought. I'm hoping to have this army done before the IG release. So, when going to the Tourny I can bring both. This one, and my IG. Then, upon viewing the others figure if I want fun or curb stomp. Asking myself questions like if Daemon boy brought his Masque and 18 strong x 3 packs of Daemonettes AGAIN... or if TFG CSM cheese man has his "these are sonic blasters see! I put a blob of greenstuff on the end of the bolter." and still insists that because his old rhinos are tiny and falling apart that his guys can shoot over the top. TLOS!!!! well anyway, a lil bit of justice for the Imperium.

@Casper:
PM's are 23 a pop, and a Daemonicly Possessed Rhino runs me 55. Upgrading to a champion with Fist is an extra 40. Soooo. (23*7)+55+40=256
Leaving 16 points left. Two Flamers for this extra squad (and scoring unit) for 6 points remaining.... Makes writing the list easy as heck. Maybe 1 Flamer and 1 Melta? Or is sacrificing 3 obliterators worth it?

-Deewalla

Princes work well if you field Rhinos.
They can hide partially behind Rhinos such that with good placement they will get a 4+ cover save.
Stick with them.

List looks good.
I've always run Princes for their CC ability at 1850 or below. Yes they are vulnerable to anti tank fire but if they shooting your princes they are not shooting your Obliterators and your scoring plague Marines. Princes can get cover saves hiding behind Rhinos, Vindicators or other Vehicles so actually aren't so easy to kill.

Princes do start to be not so great at 2k+ when the opponent can kill them really fast because they have enough fire power.

I like to go Melta/Flamer on my Plague marines because of hordes are increasingly popular in 5th.

I would drop Daemonic Possession on Rhinos. Not worth 20 pts for 1 result on the table for a vehicle you don't shoot with.

I'm not really a fan of 9 Oblits. I run 2-6 in my lists. I like to mix up my heavies with a Vindicator with Daemonic Possession which is pretty awesome if you lash the enemy into a tight clump and don't scatter too much and the Land Raider full of Terminators or Berserkers. Leaning towards Berserkers in 5th because they score although it is debatable that Terminators are more effective.

Maybe go with 6 Oblits, and put in a Vindicator with Posession and cut the Posession on the Rhinos and see if you can fit in another scoring unit like maybe 5 Noise Marines with a Doom Siren in a Rhino or if you can fit in the 4th Plague Marines squad not sure how it works points wise. Doom Siren is pretty good against opposing marines lists. 4 Scoring units is pretty nice especially with the d3+2 objectives mission that can end up with 5 objectives.

I don't like Possession on the Rhinos. It makes them 55pt tanks that are still extremely easy to kill. Ignoring 1s and 2s seems cool, but its hardly hard to penetrate AV11 at this point, especially with all the melta weapons people like to run these days. You can save 60 points by kicking possession (for a total of 107 points to spend). I'd consider a small unit of deepstriking combimelta terminators with those points (3 termies with combimeltas is 105pts and should blow up pretty much watever armor it lands near, its a solid anti-Land Raider tool if it comes down on turn 2 or 3).