Necron 9th edition general discussion thread.

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**Sasori**

p5freak wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
p5freak wrote:
If necrons are killed in the psychic phase by mortal wounds, or by any other rule which doesnt involve shooting or fighting, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by an explosion of a vehicle, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by a weapon which does mortal wounds (in addition) they can reanimate This is a huge nerf

They weren't getting RP in any of those situations before either, is the thing.

Yes, they did. You rolled for RP whenever a model was slain. You didnt roll when a model ran away because of morale.

Reanimation Protocols: Roll a D6 for each slain model from this unit (unless the whole unit has been completely destroyed) at the beginning of your turn. Do not roll for models that have fled the unit......

If they were targeting a unit in the Psychic phase, that unit was not going to survive until next turn to use RP.

**alextroy**

The real question now is did they change Living Metal? We have some indication that multi-wound Necrons are getting this rule. Will it continue to just restore 1 wound to a wounded model, or will it be able to resurrect dead models for the unit if none are wounded? That would help even out the RP issue if it can. That darn “wait and see” has cropped up again.

**Overread**

Who knows maybe living metal means they get +1 to all RP dice allocations. So instead of 1 dice for 1 wound its 2 dice for 1 wound.

**Sasori**

alextroy wrote:
The real question now is did they change Living Metal? We have some indication that multi-wound Necrons are getting this rule. Will it continue to just restore 1 wound to a wounded model, or will it be able to resurrect dead models for the unit if none are wounded? That would help even out the RP issue if it can. That darn “wait and see” has cropped up again.

I think for sure Living metal is going to change, and I feel like it's going to have diffrent attributes depending on the unit type. Heal + something for Vehicles, and Heal + something for Infantry.

**Arachnofiend**

Sasori wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
p5freak wrote:
If necrons are killed in the psychic phase by mortal wounds, or by any other rule which doesnt involve shooting or fighting, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by an explosion of a vehicle, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by a weapon which does mortal wounds (in addition) they can reanimate This is a huge nerf

They weren't getting RP in any of those situations before either, is the thing.

Yes, they did. You rolled for RP whenever a model was slain. You didnt roll when a model ran away because of morale.

Reanimation Protocols: Roll a D6 for each slain model from this unit (unless the whole unit has been completely destroyed) at the beginning of your turn. Do not roll for models that have fled the unit......

If they were targeting a unit in the Psychic phase, that unit was not going to survive until next turn to use RP.

Eeyep. 8th edition RP was objectively stronger... but only in the pie in the sky situation where you actually got roll it. The new RP is much more consistent in its application and value.

**godardc**

Yeah indeed I have been kinda quick to call them out. But things do look grim, RP doesn't even stop psychic powers. And we know for sure it can't be better than 4+. Spending some precious CP to help the RP of one unit (as they are by unit) seem to add up quiclly... Well, we'll see.

**Daedalus81**

Voss wrote:
When you have a pool that is not divisible by the wounds --

Lasguns kill 4 W1 models - 4 dice - 1.33 in pool - 1 or 2 get up
Lasguns kill 2 W2 models - 2 dice - 1.33 in pool - 0 to 1 get up

Eh? If 2 W2 models are killed, you've got 4 dice.

There is no point where you have a wounds/dice mismatch. The only point you can have a mismatch is the # of 5+ rolls.

Derp. I did the math right for dice in pool, but just wrong the original dice wrong. :(

**Kharne the Befriender**

I've been mulling it over and trying to math it out, and I think the largest boon we can receive for buffing RP is adding dice to the pool.

The +1 to RP seems like it might be rather easy to maintain if Crypteks keep their aura, but even if they don't, more dice is always better right?

So if we get a strat or piece of wargear or something that adds dice to the pool, I think that'll be far more valuable than a roll modifier.

The only other thing I can think of that could help is a way to roll for previously dead units, via a strat or potentially the Res Orb/Ghost Ark as that would help mitigate the mortal wound conundrum

Thoughts?

**Egyptian Space Zombie**

I'm not a fan of the new RP. A good rule should be worded simply but provide depth when used. This is very awkwardly worded.

**Platuan4th**

the_scotsman wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
godardc wrote:
Bye bye necron hype. It was good to have hopes for a xenos faction for once, while it lasted...
This is an absolute shame and insult to the necrons if there is no way to bring back models destroyed earlier. That was their iconic feature through the ages !

Resurrection orb?

Also, no.

Necrons always got to come back (rolling each turn) in 2nd edition

2nd ed also had the odd "buy extra Warriors for when Destroyers came back as Warriors because their hover chair got broken" version.

**Wakshaani**

The notation that RP doesn't work on mortal wounds certainly explains the one dynasty getting a 5+ FNP against them.

I also expect to see more Blackstone things around as options.

**Voss**

Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
I'm not a fan of the new RP. A good rule should be worded simply but provide depth when used. This is very awkwardly worded.

Yeah, part of it is working around the base restriction that you can't have multiple wounded models in the same unit, another is trying to really tighten down the rule with the first two paragraphs, but they basically nailed it down by hammering a nail in every possible surface that would secure the box, and hoped they didn't miss anything, rather than going for something elegant. They broke it down into steps, but didn't go the full distances and make the steps 100% obvious in natural language OR specific game terms. Just take a look at the multiple pages of people trying to puzzle it out in this thread.

The charge phrase restriction I understand basically by independently figuring out what they're trying to stop, not by any virtue of the wording of the restriction. And its vague enough (closer than what model, exactly? If you take the closest model off as a casualty for some reason, I guess you can't put it back in the same spot?) that I think it creates some problems. What if you're trying to multicharge units that surrounds yours? Or even charge a single unit that's managed to surround your unit?

Five paragraphs and three bullet points is just plain wordy for 'roll a die, on a 5+ a destroyed model comes back' OR 'roll a die equal to the wound characteristic of a destroyed model, on a 5+ restore 1 wound to a destroyed model. If it matches the full wounds characteristic of the model, the model comes back. Any model not completely restored to their full wounds is completely destroyed'

**Matt Swain**

Well, warrior blobs become pretty hard to whack totally now as they get to roll over and over to reanimate and reroll ones.

Destroyers, tomb blade, etc now become target priorities. Maybe they will get strats and gear to help them survive longer than 2 turns.

**p5freak**

Nobody will play multi wound models because they are crap now with the new RP, its almost impossible to bring them back, when only one model dies.

**Mixzremixzd**

p5freak wrote:
Nobody will play multi wound models because they are crap now with the new RP, its almost impossible to bring them back, when only one model dies.

Other factions seem to get along fine with their multi-wound models that stay dead. I understand RP is our shtick but let's not blow this outta proportion without seeing if those units have been hit with a big RP tax.

**Matt Swain**

Sasori wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
p5freak wrote:
If necrons are killed in the psychic phase by mortal wounds, or by any other rule which doesnt involve shooting or fighting, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by an explosion of a vehicle, no reanimation. If necrons are killed by a weapon which does mortal wounds (in addition) they can reanimate This is a huge nerf

They weren't getting RP in any of those situations before either, is the thing.

Yes, they did. You rolled for RP whenever a model was slain. You didnt roll when a model ran away because of morale.

Reanimation Protocols: Roll a D6 for each slain model from this unit (unless the whole unit has been completely destroyed) at the beginning of your turn. Do not roll for models that have fled the unit......

If they were targeting a unit in the Psychic phase, that unit was not going to survive until next turn to use RP.

Also let us not forget that most psychic powers did MW which made RP moot.

**gibbindefs**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Nobody will play multi wound models because they are crap now with the new RP, its almost impossible to bring them back, when only one model dies.

Other factions seem to get along fine with their multi-wound models that stay dead. I understand RP is our shtick but let's not blow this outta proportion without seeing if those units have been hit with a big RP tax.

Other factions don't pay extra points for Reanimation Protocols. The worry is GW is gonna overprice our multi-wound models because of RP, even though it will barely ever work on them.

**-Ňecrontyr-**

The problem is half their army isnt designed around the concept of their models coming back; synergies, strategies, stratagems and point costs all tied into that particular concept.

Point costs being the first and foremost worry to most of us here. If they are point costed for it being a vestigial theme, thats fine, but if RP is costed like its actually supposed to work; we may be in serious trouble.

**unitled**

Mixzremixzd wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Nobody will play multi wound models because they are crap now with the new RP, its almost impossible to bring them back, when only one model dies.

Other factions seem to get along fine with their multi-wound models that stay dead. I understand RP is our shtick but let's not blow this outta proportion without seeing if those units have been hit with a big RP tax.

Also, like, focusing down the bigger threats so they don't come back is just the same as what happens now? So, a 3.5% chance of saving a Destroyer is better than what we have. At least now you'll be able to deploy your RP boosters and have them do something rather than have them standing next to a pile of ash when it's time to start rolling.

Also creates some interesting forks for your opponent... Your destroyers are getting +1 RP and an extra two dice for the pool, do you want to pump a load of fire in or target something else?

**Mixzremixzd**

That's why I said "but let's not blow this outta proportion without seeing if those units have been hit with a big RP tax.".

Pitchforks and complain after you have the relevant information, not before.

**Sunny Side Up**

Matt Swain wrote:

Also let us not forget that most psychic powers did MW which made RP moot.

Generally with the new RP it becomes damn hard to wipe out a warrior blob within a 4 turn game barring absolutely overwhelming and likely unattainable levels of firepower since each attack is separate.

If I'm reading the new rules correctly, and correct me if I'm mistaken, say you have a 20 warrior blob, and a single enemy unit somehow manages to wipe out 15 of them, which would take a massive and pretty devastating attack from ONE unit.

Roll 15 dice, reroll ones, reanimate a warrior if you get a 5+.

Repeat until you get no 5+s, reducing the number of dice by one each time.

Really, until you get down to 3 dice the odds are on average rolls you're very likely bring back one per roll. Even at 3 dice you will likely bring back one. So out of the 15 whacked, you can count on with average rolls getting 13 back, possibly all 15. It's not unreasonable that the last dice would work since you succeed 1/3 of the time and have a 1/4 reroll chance if you fail.

So the days of just wiping out an entire warrior blob by firing your whole army at it to prevent any RP are now mostly a memory, bitter to necron players, fond to everyone else.

Of course things could go south and you can roll 6 dice and not get a 5+ or a 1, making it always possible to get really shafted by the odds. So it's not an iron clad certainly.

lacking the reroll 1 rule things are a bit less rosy for immortals, and multiwound models will see a massive nerf to RP barring some wargear,. rules or strats.

But one thing's for sure, once you plop a warrior blob on an objective they're pretty damn likely to hold it for a while... In the games where you get beaucoup points for holding an objecting on the far side of the table a warrior blob plus VoD or deceiver just might win you the game.

That's not how it works.

20 Warrior-blob loses 15 models to a single enemy unit shooting.

- You roll 15 dice and each 5+ is added to your pool. Average you get 5 dice/wounds into your pool. Now you use that pool to bring back models back one by one until you have no more "pool" left (for 1-wound models, you bring back 5).

Now you have a unit of 10. Let's say another enemy unit now shoots at that reduced-to-10 warrior blob and kills 6.

- You now roll 6 dice (just those killed by the latest attack sequence) and each 5+ is added to your new pool. Average you get 2 dice/wounds into your pool. Now you use that pool to bring back models one by one until you have no more "pool" left (for 1-wound models, you bring back 2).

You now have a unit of 6 Necron warriors.

Any future attacks will allow you to reanimate using as many dice as models were killed in the latest attack sequence. Stuff that "previously" died doesn't add any dice anymore and there's no way to ever re-animate a unit "over" what it lost in the last attack sequence anymore.

For single wound-models, there's, not much of a difference, but for multi-wound models (say 3-wound destroyers), it's actually better to shoot them with lots of MSU units. If you only kill one 3-wound model per attack-sequence, the Necron player is far less likely to get one back rolling only 3 dice for 3 5+ after each attack, compared to rolling, say, 9 or 12 dice at once after you kill 3-4 models with a single unit of yours.

**TheArchmagos**

I think the deciding factor on how good RP is for multi-wound models will be if living metal gets changed significantly, and if there is a way to roll for units that have already been removed previously. We still don't know what "Rites of Reanimation" does unless I missed that and we could very well get a strat along those lines. There's also resurrection orbs. Maybe one of those things could have an ability like "once per battle round when the last model of a unit is removed, make an RP role for every model in that unit (starting strength) at the end of that phase," but maybe that would be too good?

**Bosskelot**

Matt Swain wrote:
Well, warrior blobs become pretty hard to whack totally now as they get to roll over and over to reanimate and reroll ones.

Destroyers, tomb blade, etc now become target priorities. Maybe they will get strats and gear to help them survive longer than 2 turns.

They were always priorities and they also had no way to mitigate or survive the firepower that would be directed to them.

Now they do. The new RP is better for multiwound models than the old one.

People need to get this in their heads.

**Dudeface**

Bosskelot wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, warrior blobs become pretty hard to whack totally now as they get to roll over and over to reanimate and reroll ones.

Destroyers, tomb blade, etc now become target priorities. Maybe they will get strats and gear to help them survive longer than 2 turns.

They were always priorities and they also had no way to mitigate or survive the firepower that would be directed to them.

Now they do. The new RP is better for multiwound models than the old one.

People need to get this in their heads.

If they attract enough firepower to be reduced to low numbers for RP to kick in and be successful, then they've probably already attracted enough firepower to risk being wiped with no RP. The only way the new one is better for multi-wound is if your opponent heavily depletes the target unit in 1 volley but fails to wipe them. In the event 1 model gets back up either your opponent wipes them back out again with a 2nd unit (same as before just with less overkill) or they're now stuck at that reduced size when previously they had a chance of 1/3 of the models getting back up on full wounds every turn.

A lot of this both was is hyperbole because if a unit of destroyers lose 1 model in a phase, odds are it's dead. if your opponent is killing 5 out of 6 then they're either being unlucky not to wipe all 6 or they're not caring that out of the 5 dead models, you've good odds that 1 will get back up.

**Bosskelot**

Any unit being able to completely wipe 6 destroyers in one shooting attack is incredibly rare anyway. Even Aggressors and Eradicators cannot manage it (well, maybe Aggressors....) because shoot twice abilities are a separate shooting attack, meaning the unit would get to make 2 RP rolls if both attack sequences result in casualties.

**Dudeface**

Bosskelot wrote:
Any unit being able to completely wipe 6 destroyers in one shooting attack is incredibly rare anyway. Even Aggressors and Eradicators cannot manage it (well, maybe Aggressors....) because shoot twice abilities are a separate shooting attack, meaning the unit would get to make 2 RP rolls if both attack sequences result in casualties.

If a unit can kill 3 per volley, it will now take 3 when it used to take 2 which is a definite improvement, but kill them 2 at a time and odds are none get back up albeit this is still better as they have the chance to even if they don't.

**IHateNids**

As a tiny little aside-point from someone who hasnt had time to read the 9th Ed rules yet, are we still expected to kill off wounded models first?

I'm expecting so, but given I haven't heard I thought I'd check because it would make new RP so much better

**Dudeface**

IHateNids wrote:
As a tiny little aside-point from someone who hasnt had time to read the 9th Ed rules yet, are we still expected to kill off wounded models first?

I'm expecting so, but given I haven't heard I thought I'd check because it would make new RP so much better

Yes, wounded models are removed first still.

**torblind**

Dudeface wrote:
Bosskelot wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, warrior blobs become pretty hard to whack totally now as they get to roll over and over to reanimate and reroll ones.

Destroyers, tomb blade, etc now become target priorities. Maybe they will get strats and gear to help them survive longer than 2 turns.

They were always priorities and they also had no way to mitigate or survive the firepower that would be directed to them.

Now they do. The new RP is better for multiwound models than the old one.

People need to get this in their heads.

If they attract enough firepower to be reduced to low numbers for RP to kick in and be successful, then they've probably already attracted enough firepower to risk being wiped with no RP. The only way the new one is better for multi-wound is if your opponent heavily depletes the target unit in 1 volley but fails to wipe them. In the event 1 model gets back up either your opponent wipes them back out again with a 2nd unit (same as before just with less overkill) or they're now stuck at that reduced size when previously they had a chance of 1/3 of the models getting back up on full wounds every turn.

A lot of this both was is hyperbole because if a unit of destroyers lose 1 model in a phase, odds are it's dead. if your opponent is killing 5 out of 6 then they're either being unlucky not to wipe all 6 or they're not caring that out of the 5 dead models, you've good odds that 1 will get back up.

No the entire point here is that your enemy will kill them piece meal, if he can, effectively denying RP (again!). First unit kills off just the one model from each of your destroyer-like units. No effective RP with only one 3W model lost. The second unit does the same. And the third. Boom. 3 destroyer-like models gone from each unit, 6 total. And no RP. Just like 8th.

Remains of the initial units live on but are no real threat any more and are easily dealt with the subsequent turns if need be.

This is the worst case.

You have to mitigate that as good as you can. But RP isn't really "fixed" for these models going into 9th. They still don't have an effective RP. Sure they cause your enemy to distirbute fire in a certain way, just like RP did in 8th, but its perhaps even more easily handled now as your enemy can evenly distribute his fire power where it does the most damage, no longer wasting fire power by over killing like he did in 8th. That's the new framework from which anti-necron tactics will form.

That beinng said, 20 blob warriors are likely back with a vengeance. For some time they might not see that threat coming and all the time they focus on our destroyer-like units, the warriors might live to score points until its too late to shift them. Who knows.

**Dudeface**

torblind wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Bosskelot wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, warrior blobs become pretty hard to whack totally now as they get to roll over and over to reanimate and reroll ones.

Destroyers, tomb blade, etc now become target priorities. Maybe they will get strats and gear to help them survive longer than 2 turns.

They were always priorities and they also had no way to mitigate or survive the firepower that would be directed to them.

Now they do. The new RP is better for multiwound models than the old one.

People need to get this in their heads.

If they attract enough firepower to be reduced to low numbers for RP to kick in and be successful, then they've probably already attracted enough firepower to risk being wiped with no RP. The only way the new one is better for multi-wound is if your opponent heavily depletes the target unit in 1 volley but fails to wipe them. In the event 1 model gets back up either your opponent wipes them back out again with a 2nd unit (same as before just with less overkill) or they're now stuck at that reduced size when previously they had a chance of 1/3 of the models getting back up on full wounds every turn.

A lot of this both was is hyperbole because if a unit of destroyers lose 1 model in a phase, odds are it's dead. if your opponent is killing 5 out of 6 then they're either being unlucky not to wipe all 6 or they're not caring that out of the 5 dead models, you've good odds that 1 will get back up.

No the entire point here is that your enemy will kill them piece meal, if he can, effectively denying RP (again!). First unit kills off just the one model from each of your destroyer-like units. No effective RP with only one 3W model lost. The second unit does the same. And the third. Boom. 3 destroyer-like models gone from each unit, 6 total. And no RP. Just like 8th.

Remains of the initial units live on but are no real threat any more and are easily dealt with the subsequent turns if need be.

This is the worst case.

You have to mitigate that as good as you can. But RP isn't really "fixed" for these models going into 9th. They still don't have an effective RP. Sure they cause your enemy to distirbute fire in a certain way, just like RP did in 8th, but its perhaps even more easily handled now as your enemy can evenly distribute his fire power where it does the most damage, no longer wasting fire power by over killing like he did in 8th. That's the new framework from which anti-necron tactics will form.

That beinng said, 20 blob warriors are likely back with a vengeance. For some time they might not see that threat coming and all the time they focus on our destroyer-like units, the warriors might live to score points until its too late to shift them. Who knows.

Oh I agree, I was trying to highlight that if they start being gunned down by bigger weapons, it's still not really that much better. the 3+ wound stuff needs to be cheap imo to offset the improbability of it returning at any point. Poor heavy lokhust with it's 1.2% chance of resurrecting.