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Well the tyranid monstrous creature list is getting nailed in the other two scenarios as the MCs cannot capture objectives.

Question that wasn't answered that I saw -

Big things can be shot over regular sized models, but can the big things shoot over regular sized models to things behind them?

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:

Total Anihilation = Get 'Kill Points' for units destroyed or falling back. HQ=3pts. Fast, Heavy, Elite = 2pts Troops=1pt

so "cheesy" armies like the Tyranid Monstrous Creature list, where you have all your points sunk into relatively few hard-hitting units, suddenly gain another advantage in that they provide their opponents with fewer targets from which to gain Kill Points. and those players looking to play a well rounded army with a little bit of everything get shafted, because they're presenting 10+ targets, often almost double that which their cheesy opponent may provide? i feel like this scenario is pushing the game in a bit of a wrong direction. i do like how troops only award one point, though.

These Armies may only have half the targets, but those targets will be worth double the kill points. Surely that balances up?

It does give another incentive to bring larger Troops units though, as a point sink. kill off all 180 ork boyz or gaunts, get 6 kill points as a reward. Alternatively, just take out 2 HQ's for the same score. I know which i think is easier.

It's cool actually, like the old assassinate mission card.

If you have 8 TMCs, that's 2x 3KP for 2 HQs, 6x 2KP for 6 Feces, and 2x 1KP for 2 Rippers = 20 KP total.

If you had 6 huge mobs of 20 PM, that might be only 3 KP for the prince, and 6 KP for Troops = 10 KP total.

What this does is penalize small "throwaway" squads (i.e Stormtroopers, IG Weapons teams, 6-man Las/Plas).

Big mobs of Boyz & MEQs will not be giving up KPs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you have 8 TMCs, that's 2x 3KP for 2 HQs, 6x 2KP for 6 Feces, and 2x 1KP for 2 Rippers = 20 KP total.

If you had 6 huge mobs of 20 PM, that might be only 3 KP for the prince, and 6 KP for Troops = 10 KP total.

What this does is penalize small "throwaway" squads (i.e Stormtroopers, IG Weapons teams, 6-man Las/Plas).

Big mobs of Boyz & MEQs will not be giving up KPs.

Interestingly because it uses the terms 'unit' it looks like Dark Angels are worth 1 KP if they stay together and 2 KP if they use Combat Squads.

Being able to choose whether to be two units (e.g. for holding objectives) or one (for denying KP) is going to be a useful advantage in 5th.

That means that Wave Serpents and Falcons without SMF aren't quite the death traps people feared as long as you have a Farseer to keep them Fortuned (~55% or so chance to ignore each hit).

Fortune doesn't need line of sight so fire points are irrelevant. What is relevant is whether there is a rule that says that characters who are inside transports count as being 'out of the game'. If the Farseer is in game, then he can cast most of his spells from the flying car. The rule isn't exactly unambigous even now but it would be nice if it was clearly possible in the 5th edition. I think the only power that can be used from a Falcon right now is the Eldritch Storm.

Does anyone else think that ordnance might be coming back in a big way? Do partial template hits now affect vehicles normally? Sounds to me like 3rd edition ordnance rules but even better since partials hit all models. How does casualty removal work from under the templates? Are Defilers and Leman Russes coming back?

My only real complaint is how land tanks and infantry can get 5+ / 3+ cover saves, but skimmers only get 5+ when moving "flat out".

Well, it's hard to understand how GW thinks any skimmer is worth its points now. They aren't fast enough nor resilient enough to justify the points cost especially as transports. 35 points for a Rhino, 165 points for a Falcon. Let me see. To me it seems the best way to use Hammerheads is to land the vehicle behind some 4+ or 3+ cover and shoot the Railgun and SMS from there all game. Fire Prisms can't land so they suck.

And, if these rumors are true, with scoring completely determining winning, and only non-vehicle troops scoring, there are at least two codex legal army lists where it is impossible to win with regardless of anything else that happens in the game. Both based off of fluff descriptions of types of those armies (End of days Nid list and Dreadmob Ork List).

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you have 8 TMCs, that's 2x 3KP for 2 HQs, 6x 2KP for 6 Feces, and 2x 1KP for 2 Rippers = 20 KP total.

If you had 6 huge mobs of 20 PM, that might be only 3 KP for the prince, and 6 KP for Troops = 10 KP total.

3 kp for the hq and 6kp for the troops = 9kp total.

I will assume you were in a rush

JohnHwangDD wrote:What this does is penalize small "throwaway" squads (i.e Stormtroopers, IG Weapons teams, 6-man Las/Plas).

Big mobs of Boyz & MEQs will not be giving up KPs.

IG will definately suffer. From my assumption on how this works, they can give up 6kp PER TROOP SLOT, with each unit being easilly killed. Most of their support falls into your "throwaway squad" category too. I guess thats the trade off for having so many scoring units for the other scenarios

As I've stated earlier, I fail to see why this should be a problem.

If the player knowingly chooses to select an army that cannot win, that is not the fault of the designer.

It is no different than a player choosing to take a less competitive list, take a handicap, or playing for a sporting minor win / draw rather than WAAC Massacre.

Well I can't see anyone hoping that the KP system actually makes it into the final version of the game. It's too easy to abuse and affects army design in a massive way. It isn't fair in any shape or form that if player A destroys 1000 points of players B's army and player B does the same to player A, one of them gets a solid victory since his units were from a different force organisation slot.

As I see it, even in the "Take and Hold" and "Recon" missions, if you kill the enemies troops off, it now a VP game. So armies that don't have Scoring troops (Ripper swarm troops or Dread troops for Orks) can still attempt to win the game by breaking/killing all the enemy troops then winning the old fashion way.

skyth wrote:And, if these rumors are true, with scoring completely determining winning, and only non-vehicle troops scoring, there are at least two codex legal army lists where it is impossible to win with regardless of anything else that happens in the game. Both based off of fluff descriptions of types of those armies (End of days Nid list and Dreadmob Ork List).

If you're desperate to win so much, just don't take those armies!

I don't know about the End of days nid list, but i was very tempted by a dreadmob when i read the new codex. The way i worked it out, after taking 2 big meks (with force fields), 2 deffdreds (troops) and 9 killa kans you still have around half your points left over in a 1500 point game (depending on your weapons and other upgrades) as well as 4 troop slots. plenty of room for a handful of grot slaves, maybe some mini-kans (ard boys), or whatever you can cram in.
More importantly, it is definatly a "fun" build for use against friends, instead of a serious tournie army. Why not agree for the dreds to count as scoring, or use a scenario where it doesn't matter.

Of course, if you were wanting to play a real dredmob, there is always apocalypse. There's no Force Organisation Table to screw things up there.

Leggy wrote:I will assume you were in a rush

You're far more charitable than others.

IG will definately suffer. From my assumption on how this works, they can give up 6kp PER TROOP SLOT,

Actually, I think it's 7 KP per slot: Platoon Command, 5 Platoon Squads, & REMNANTS!

Perhaps you were hurried, too?

I guess thats the trade off for having so many scoring units for the other scenarios

Yup.

Players will need to balance Scoring units against risk of giving up KPs.

But with 2/3 of the scenarios being Objectives instead of KPs, it's not hard to see which way to go as a default.

I just noticed something interesting.

When it states "allocate wounds" it specifically states "allocate wounds to visible models". I thought it was going to be cover saves for the models not visible.
It looks like you can choose not to fire certain models in the unit if you wish as well (This was a grey area with our group)

Therion wrote:It isn't fair in any shape or form that if player A destroys 1000 points of players B's army and player B does the same to player A, one of them gets a solid victory since his units were from a different force organisation slot.

If it's easier to destroy 1000 pts of Troops than 1000 pts of Heavy / Fast / Elite then it's completely fair.

If those Heavy / Fast / Elite concentrate a lot more offensive power per point, then it's completely fair.

The idea that all points or units should be equally valuable from a strategic standpoint is kind of strange.

Particularly as Troops are currently widely considered less valuable per point than non-Troops.

If it's easier to destroy 1000 pts of Troops than 1000 pts of Heavy / Fast / Elite then it's completely fair.

Correct, but it isn't.

Particularly as Troops are currently widely considered less valuable per point than non-Troops.

I'm not sure what it's like where you play but where I'm from that's not the case at all. Have a look at Ork Boyz. Masses of wounds, close combat orientated, benefit from new run rule, carry S8 anti tank weapons and a S9 power klaw. 30 of them are rock solid beyond your wildest dreams, and they are worth 1KP. They are harder to kill than almost anything in the game, especially if they have cover saves, all the while being a scoring unit and because of the KP rule completely expendable. Boyz, boyz, boyz.

As far as tanks go, after reading some of the opinions on Warseer, I'd like someone to run some maths on killing an AV14 vehicle in 4+ cover (rocks, ruins, hills, etc) with the new damage table. I think you'll find the new '4th ed Falcon' in there.

Lascannon kill : 2/3 hit x 1/6 Pen x 1/3 Destroyed x 1/2 cover = 1/54. Same chance of destroying a Holofield Falcon?

Railgun kill: 2/3 hit x 1/3 Pen x 1/2 Destroyed x 1/2 Cover = 1/18.

A very good point. But wasn't the horrible thing about the falcon that is was also a skimming transport for 6 specialists? A leman russ can't fly over terrain while shaken, tank shocking those inside before dropping a squad of specialised death dealers. It's also more vunerable to assault. So I have less of a problem with it being super durable.
Land Raiders are going to be a bit mental though. But still vunerable to close assault.

You're also right about ork boys being insane in the new edition. With running and waaagh!-ing and the new scoring rules, they just went from "Strong and bordering on broken" into "broken".

Things that jumped out at me after a brief skim (Sorry if some of them are repeats):

Assault: 2 inch kill zone is gone. You can remove any models from your unit in HTH now. This makes Ini mean alot less, makes horde units that barely reach HTH alot better.

Assault: You are a -1 to Ld for each wound you took in HTH (If you lose HTH).

If you get a "Crew Stunned" result you can't disembark. Egh.

You can run the turn you Deep Strike. Deep Strike Mishap table is nasty.

Things that jumped out at me after a brief skim

Is the PDF downloadable somewhere? If anyone has it PM me a link to a torrent or whatever.

Therion wrote:They are harder to kill than almost anything in the game, especially if they have cover saves, all the while being a scoring unit and because of the KP rule completely expendable.

I don't think Boyz are any more difficult to kill than 20 Plague Marines, and they're Troops worth only 1 KP.

Some interesting changes from 4ed to 5ed that have not been mentioned that i know of:

1) It appears that LOS is measured from modeles eye view (or weapon mount for vehicles). Period. So yes a carnifex can shoot over the gaunts in front of it as long as models eye view wise it can see its target completely unobscured by freind/foe (partially obscured is allowed for terrain or the afore mentioned shooting beyond a friendly vehicle with low S weaponry). And again, Yakface's sig hold true even more in 5ed.

How much are laser pointers?

2) 25% casualty moral check is for each phase -- not just shooting.

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a
single phase of the turn must pass a Morale check
at the end of that phase, with the appropriate
modifiers, or else it will fall back." Emphasis mine.

I think this is potentially huge for non-fearless units. You could win combat, sweep, and still fall back afterward if you lose 25% casualties in the assault phase. Or you could fall back due to dangerous terrain.

3) Which brings up another change. Wrecks are dangerous as well as difficult terrain.

4) Out numbered doesn't affect moral check for running, this is now deteremined by the differnce in wounds you lost by (eg you inflicted 2 wounds, opponent inflicted 6, you lost by 4 wounds, -4 to your ld check).

5) Out numbered still affects fearless much like now, only there is no limit to the number of wounds inflicted (eg 10:1 outnumbered = 10 wounds).

6) falling back is much more dangerous. Basically you go straight back to your board edge 2D6". As mentioned you can fall back straight through friendly models (all friendly models) and if these are non-vehicle models they must take moral test or run too. Difficult terrain does not slow this movement down. The kicker: if the movement is blocked by impassable terrain or enemy models, the model is removed. This is done on a model to model basis, and remember that there is no rule for moving to avoid anything. You always go straight back toward theboard edge. Could be brutal.

7) Invulnerable save s allowed against Perils of the Warp, but requires two succesful rolls.

8) I think this was stated but is good to mention again: if a unit destroys a transport, it may assault the disembarking occupants.

9) Monsterous creatures can still fire two weapons (and on the move). They also cannot be pinned (voluntary or otherwise). They can run as far as I can tell.

10) Walkers, like other vehicles cannot fire more then one S5+ weapon if they moved (eg MCs are the better shooting platforms). They can most certainly run like infantry.

11) Jet pack (eg Tau) can fire heavy weapons as if stationary (gogo marker light drones) as well as rapid fire. eg they have relentless, which is for both rapid fire and heavy weapons and there is no caveat at all.

12) skimmers/jetbikes cannot float above terrain at the end of their move. They must take a dangerous terrain test if they end their move above terrain. Skimmers are allowed to end on immpassible terrain if the model will stay there, but must take a dangerous terrain test (i don't think jetbikes can do this however). Huge nerfage.

13) 3+ cover save for vehicles in a very limited circumstance: If you fire at a vehicle and the facing that you'd normally shoot at is 100% blocked, but you can still see a part of another facing, you may shoot at that facing but the extreme angle makes it a 3+ cover save. I can see this being situationally abused by certain vehicles (like land raiders).

14) Using instakill on Force Weapon is now most certainly a psychic power, so 1kson sorcerer can use force weapon and warp time in 5ed.

15) Models, both firendly and enemy are defined as immpassible terrain.

Much more but I'm offline for ahwile.

Enjoy!

If I get this right, crisis suits and tyranid warriors can shoot over their own men (eyes are higher up) but cannot be shot back at (partially obscured by friendly models, not monstrous creatures). Terrain must be high enough that the line of sight is COMPLETELY clear of any intervening friendly/enemy models.

Gun drones are on flight stands.

I just noticed something interesting.

When it states "allocate wounds" it specifically states "allocate wounds to visible models". I thought it was going to be cover saves for the models not visible.
It looks like you can choose not to fire certain models in the unit if you wish as well (This was a grey area with our group)

Yeah what I noticed is that the cover save rules read much like they do in 4ed, including models being out of LOS being unable to be removed as casualties. Totally contradicts the wounding section above it. here 's a quote:

"Note that even models that are completely out of
sight and/or out of range of all of the firers
(including those behind intervening models) can
be wounded."

Then a page away in the cover save section:
"Models that are completely out of sight of all of
the firers are not counted in either category, and
they cannot be hit."

It does contradict a bit, except the difference is one is "wounding" and one is "hit". I believe the last quote is only saying that a model out of LOS cannot be counted in determining whether a unit is in cover or out of cover, but no suprise GW has some contradicting rules.

Personally, I don't understand why they wouldn't assign cover saves to models instead of the 4ed way but that is not the way it reads.

If I get this right, crisis suits and tyranid warriors can shoot over their own men (eyes are higher up) but cannot be shot back at (partially obscured by friendly models). Terrain must be high enough that the line of sight is COMPLETELY clear of any intervening friendly/enemy models.

It will depend on the situation but yeah, that is exactly how I read it (granted I need more time to read it a couple more times.

winterman wrote:

I just noticed something interesting.

When it states "allocate wounds" it specifically states "allocate wounds to visible models". I thought it was going to be cover saves for the models not visible.
It looks like you can choose not to fire certain models in the unit if you wish as well (This was a grey area with our group)

Yeah what I noticed is that the cover save rules read much like they do in 4ed, including models being out of LOS being unable to be removed as casualties. Totally contradicts the wounding section above it. here 's a quote:

"Note that even models that are completely out of
sight and/or out of range of all of the firers
(including those behind intervening models) can
be wounded."

Then a page away in the cover save section:
"Models that are completely out of sight of all of
the firers are not counted in either category, and
they cannot be hit."

It does contradict a bit, except the difference is one is "wounding" and one is "hit". I believe the last quote is only saying that a model out of LOS cannot be counted in determining whether a unit is in cover or out of cover, but no suprise GW has some contradicting rules.

Personally, I don't understand why they wouldn't assign cover saves to models instead of the 4ed way but that is not the way it reads.

Yeah I noticed that too. I'm inclined to believe you can only allocate to visible models considering this is new wording and specifically in the shooting phase section.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

What do you mean useful again? The wave serpent has always been useful. Just ask all of the player's who faced it in Vegas.

Most eldar players would disagree with you.

Capt K

That would mean they are bad players. How many times do we have to take Mech Eldar to events, win and get crushed in sportsmanship just to prove this point? And yet, we have the Wave Serpent naysayers out there still. In fact, I shouldn't even say anything. Mutscheller is gonna kill me for even posting on this. Ugh.

Since this is a discussion about 5th ed - I won't digress any further.

I'm on ebay right now looking for Warwalkers. I want 24 str 6 shots at 36", fortuned and guided in 4+ cover. OUCH!!

What? You mean Vypers and warwalkers will be about on par now? You mean, Warwalkers might actually be worth taking now? (but with all the extra goodies)