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If by on par you mean War Walkers are already playable and Vipers are only going to get worse. Then yes, they're on par now.

12) skimmers/jetbikes cannot float above terrain at the end of their move. They must take a dangerous terrain test if they end their move above terrain. Skimmers are allowed to end on immpassible terrain if the model will stay there, but must take a dangerous terrain test (i don't think jetbikes can do this however). Huge nerfage.

Unless you buy sensor spines. Then you can be in cover and shoot both your S5 weapons, presumably while still in cover.

So the Tau skimmers will hide behind/in cover and just shoot? I hope I'm wrong about that.

They are playable now, but in comparison to the survivability and maneuverability of the vyper, there isn't much reason to take them. Especially with the heavy slots being used for Falcons and Prisms.

The saves are going to make it very interesting. Fast vehicles can get a save for speeding across open ground, while the rest will have to use cover, but all of it is pretty much one nice even rule.

Anyone kind enough to PM a link to me? Feeling left out here.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:12) skimmers/jetbikes cannot float above terrain at the end of their move. They must take a dangerous terrain test if they end their move above terrain. Skimmers are allowed to end on immpassible terrain if the model will stay there, but must take a dangerous terrain test (i don't think jetbikes can do this however). Huge nerfage.

Unless you buy sensor spines. Then you can be in cover and shoot both your S5 weapons, presumably while still in cover.

So the Tau skimmers will hide behind/in cover and just shoot? I hope I'm wrong about that.

How come? It's pretty nifty. Unless you're using them as assault-blockers, they might as well be hiding behind a good plot of land anyway. You still get a 5+ save if you need to reposition them.

Hi all, 40k newbie here, popping in to see what was up with all these rumors I'd been hearing about.

Asmodai wrote:That's a good point Kilkrazy. They suggest literally picking up the dice and placing it next to each model that it wounded. You're right that probability-wise, you couldn't use the short-cut I suggested.

You can replace any model killed with a model with the identical equipment, which led me astray. You do have to take each model individually.

Also interesting, and a mate just reminded me, you can allocate both Plasma Gun wounds to the same model if you wanted to minimize casualties. (That's the example they use in the leak.) This constitutes a subtle nerf to Plasma Guns.

Wow. I may be new to the game, but this seems like a pretty big deal. Beyond just subtly nerfing plasma guns, it seems to have a significant impact on the attacks of any unit that can put out a mix of armor-penetrating and non-armor-penetrating hits, as well as any unit that relies on causing a large number of saves, particularly when targeted against small units.

An example:

A brood of genestealers charges a 6-man marine squad. The stealers inflict 2 rending and 4 non-rending wounds (the average result for 12 hits). In this case, the marine player removes two models and makes one save on each of the rest.

But if I'm understanding Asmodai correctly, if the stealers caused one extra regular wound, for 2 rending and 5 non-rending wounds, the marine player would have to "wrap around" with assigning wounds and could put both rends on the same model. Thus, the marine player removes one model and makes one save on each of the rest.

Net result? Rolling one extra non-rending wound has effectively made one of the two rends disappear and spared a marine.

Of course, this could happen with other squads as well. You also run into issues of high-RoF units (like those guided warwalkers) forcing 2 or even three saves per model on small-to-medium units, which will often result in some models failing more than one save, thus causing (slightly?) fewer casualties than they would currently. So such high-RoF units, while gaining better odds of picking off sergeants and heavy weapons, would actually become somewhat less effective against certain infrantry targets in terms of total killing power.

Dire Wombat wrote:Wow. I may be new to the game, but this seems like a pretty big deal. Beyond just subtly nerfing plasma guns, it seems to have a significant impact on the attacks of any unit that can put out a mix of armor-penetrating and non-armor-penetrating hits, as well as any unit that relies on causing a large number of saves, particularly when targeted against small units.

This is assuming that the existing rule of handling wounds that don't allow armor saves first and by themselves doesn't make it into the new codex. Somehow I'd be surprised if you end up able to allocate two unsavable wounds to the same model when there are saveable wounds left to allocate.

I'd also be surprised if that didn't get fixed... it's just a little alarming that, assuming the leak is genuine, it apparently hasn't been addressed yet.

The effects on high-RoF units would be easier to live with, seeing as the small loss in average casualties caused is a trade-off for increased odds of picking off special models.

OK, I just found the rules posted on the web.

My favorite part is the new reserve rules - you can now choose to start in reserve.

Also, starting turn 5, you automatically come in from reserves (no 2+). Very helpful.

I also like because the rules are very clear on the order you roll and bring reserves in (roll all reserve roles first, then bring in units).

Outflanking is cool and will help infiltrating and scout units!

Oh, and one more unrelated thing - having a squad leader with higher Ld actually now (officially) gives you a benefit!

Mez

Therion wrote:

Things that jumped out at me after a brief skim

Is the PDF downloadable somewhere? If anyone has it PM me a link to a torrent or whatever.

Can I get that as well?

Edit:

Please don't even help anyone to procure the leak. I'm sure they can find it if they try hard enough.

And please don't ask where to find it here on Dakka.

--yakface

My favorite part is the new reserve rules - you can now choose to start in reserve.

That might be a good thing for eldar skimmers carrying assault troops. Come in with star engines from reserve and avoid getting downed on turn one.

Wow. Just wow.

After reading through it once, my immediate, self-centered thoughts are as follows:

Mwuahahaaha! Black Templars horde squads FTW!

Vindicators are even better now according to the new Ordnance rules.

But, in relation to Imperial Guardsmen out there:

It's a sad, sad day to those of us who ever thought fielding an Armored Company would be fun. More like Codex: Leman Russ Main Bunker Tank.

S4 Defensive sucks. Horribly. I don't mind skimmers slowing down, but I'd like to see some clarification (and much needed) improvement on tanks, especially now that a Hellhound, which probably weighs in at over 15 tons, cannot shoot a heavy machine gun, flamethrower, and .50 cal in the same turn. Riddle me that one, Gee Dub!

Monoliths are even more broken now that the new Vehicle Damage Chart is the way it is. Maybe my usual Necron opponent (my most common adversary at the moment) will consent to a points hike to 265 points.

I will say though, that with S4 Defensive Weapons being the norm, I see Leman Russes becoming shells. No more Triple HB pimping, no sir. If the tank wants to move at Combat Speed and not shoot its Battlecannon (for fear of obliterating a friendly squad on the scatter, especially now that everything touching the template is hit), then IG players should just buy a Hull Heavy Bolter and either forgo a pintle weapon or take the Stubber.

All I know for sure is that my tanks just dropped in cost from 168 points (HM Las, HB Spon, Smoke) to 148 points (Hull HB, Smoke). Yay, 40 more points freed up.

I'll get back when I re-read the entire thing again.

CK

Bikes all now get a 3+ cover save for their turbo-boost. So the psy-cannon thing is out the window.

This is ridiculous. It solves nothing. Now flamers will ignore the saving throw instead of weapons like psy-cannons. It’s the EXACT same problem but with different weapons.

I really hope it’s “Bikes have the option to take a 3+ cover save” and not “a bike’s armor save becomes a 3+ cover save".

P.S. I realize we talked about this back on page 3. But I had to comment on it.

~Logic

I really hope it’s “Bikes have the option to take a 3+ cover save” and not “a bike’s armor save becomes a 3+ cover save".

Bikes "benefit" from a 3+ cover save. Much like a unit in a bunker benefits from a 3+ cover save. They can still choose to use their regular save.

winterman wrote:

I really hope it’s “Bikes have the option to take a 3+ cover save” and not “a bike’s armor save becomes a 3+ cover save".

Bikes "benefit" from a 3+ cover save. Much like a unit in a bunker benefits from a 3+ cover save. They can still choose to use their regular save.

Maybe. It depends on how GW words it.

Right now bikes that turbo-boost "benefit" from an invulnerable save... But they "benefit" from an invulnerable save at the cost of their armor save.

~Logic

Wow. I may be new to the game, but this seems like a pretty big deal. Beyond just subtly nerfing plasma guns, it seems to have a significant impact on the attacks of any unit that can put out a mix of armor-penetrating and non-armor-penetrating hits, as well as any unit that relies on causing a large number of saves, particularly when targeted against small units.

Yeah it was a surprising example they gave (and without the example it would cause a YMTC thread to end all threads). But using wrap around to minimize casualties is exactly what is allowed. Honestly, it just makes smaller units a bit more resilient but at the same time those smaller units are more likely to lose a key model. There's a give and take which isn't so bad on my first pass through the rules.

Maybe. It depends on how GW words it.

Umm, that is how they word it the leaked document: "the bike benefits from a Cover Save of 3+"

There is no replacement of their save. There is even a section which talks about choosing to use cover save or regular armor save in the shooting rules.

Honestly, this is a solid change. Nashing of teeth is more warranted on other changes...

Slow and purposeful now allows bonus attacks on the charge. So Ghaz and meganobs are better buys now, and ghaz's ability makes sense.

So is this way it's supposed to work? Let's say some Genestealers attack 5 marines.

In scenario one they get 2 rending wounds and 9 normal wounds. The space marine player is then allowed to allocate them as such and rolls:

SM A: rend, rend, normal wound rolls (1) – one very unlucky space marine
SM B: rolls (1), (2)
SM C: rolls (3). (4)
SM D: rolls (3), (6)
SM E: rolls (5), (5)

So even though the space marine squad suffered 2 rends and 3 failed saves, only two guys bite it?

Contract this with Scenario 2, 1 rending wound and 9 normal wounds:

SM A: rend, normal wound rolls (4)
SM B: rolls (1), (4)
SM C: rolls (2). (4)
SM D: rolls (1), (6)
SM E: rolls (5), (5)

So in this hypothetical scenario, twice as many casualties are done (4) even though only one rending wound and three failed saves were suffered?

And in both scenarios you have to roll 5 sets of dice?

This is better how?

Nobody is really bringing this up, but how 'bout them scouts?

Its seems borderline stupid to me that every army in the game is going to have a unit that can come on by the enemies table edge. Stand and shoot armies will suffer horribly for this. I know there are new rules for consolidating into fresh units (not being able to) but coming onto the table with a powerfisted cheap squad of scouts and pummelling a 3 man broadside teams seems just too easy now. Squads like devestators/reapers/broadsides/lootas are all really vulnerable to these types of units that are now all too common.

I really dont like the idea of that. Its always been nearly impossible to defend or prepare for an assault by units like this (Space wolf scouts) now everyone will be bringing one to the table.

...forget snikrot, every infiltrater has his rule now, just bring some komandos with a powerklawed nob.

I've gone through the PDF a couple times and it's mostly OK.

It's odd that Snipers lost the hit on 2+. Now they rely on BS4+, which isn't so bad, given that they got the nerfed Rending.

It's amusing that Power Fists got nerfed to block the +1A except for double Fists. I guess Lighting Claws are the answer, rather than Fists being the do-it-all no-brainers.

Glaring inconsistencies in the rules:

1. Turbo-boosting is still 24" while Fast Vehicles are 18". This makes absolutely no sense that a Bike having to navigate cross-country can be faster than helicopter or grav-tank that only has to deal with air resistance. Either Turbo-boosting should drop to 18", or else both Jetbikes and Fast Skimmers should be able to move up to 24".

2. Turbo-boosting and deep cover give 3+ cover saves, but Skimmers moving fast only gain a 5+ (like cheap 1-shot Smoke). For better consistency, either bring Turbo-boosting down to a 4+ or (more sensibly), bring Flat Out up to a 3+. At least Skimmers don't have to go Flat Out to get their SMF save, and that Cruising Speed (6+") is enough for the 5+.

3. Assigning wounds to models out of sight / range, but not assigning hits to models out of sight / range. Better to assume models move up and die, as it appears that 40k5 is increasing lethality. The out of sight / range should simply count as non-Exposed for the purposes of determining whether the unit may take Cover Saves.

____

Oh yeah, the Deep Strike Mishap table is great. If you can't place all of the models, 1/2 the time the unit is dead, and 1/2 the time, the opponent places them. Awesome!

I agree with deadshane on this one. Scouts that can roll onto the table from wherever are way too powerful. I sincerely hope that GW takes these rules back to the drawing board big time. There is a lot of potential, but also a lot of stupidity. Strength 4 or less defensive weapons are useless, I think that they were fine as Str 6. Vehicles need to be able to move and fire, period. The individual allocation of wounds will take forever and will result in a lot of bullcrap about who is hit with what. The line of sight rules are just asking for abuse and the prospect of fortuned vehicles is sickening. I like the vehicle cover save rule, but it shouldn't result in a return to the pillbox tanks of old. If GW hears our criticism and carefully folds it into the new rules to create a better product I will be really happy, but if they just release the same messy rules leaked here, then it will definitely make the game less fun.

"yea, my lascannon devestators are going to shoot at your landraider."

"Umm, how, its behind this building. you cant see it."

"Well, if you look from my devestators, im perfectly lined up with that single little window in the building, I can see the side of your tank through that, and we never said that the building cannot be seen thru."

"Are you serious, you're shooting at me thru THAT? Its only just bigger than a marines head."

"Yea, but I can still see your LandRaider thru it!"


....Yay....

Ebon wrote:This is better how?

Now you see what I mean by GW dumbing down the rules in many places (damage tables, keeping majority toughness) but at the same time introducing utterly perplexing rules that seem to exist for no other reason than to slow things down (this armour save rule, having to roll scatter for every damned blast marker, fuggin' barrage for multiple blasts).

Why can't the 5th God of Chaos - Priestley - save us from these incompetants who run 40K now...

BYE

Yes indeedy. Especially considering that allocating wounds/saves individually means you could just as easily allocate hits/wounding individually and avoid the pitfalls of majority toughness in the first place.

JohnHwangDD wrote:...

1. Turbo-boosting is still 24" while Fast Vehicles are 18". This makes absolutely no sense that a Bike having to navigate cross-country can be faster than helicopter or grav-tank that only has to deal with air resistance. Either Turbo-boosting should drop to 18", or else both Jetbikes and Fast Skimmers should be able to move up to 24".

2. Turbo-boosting and deep cover give 3+ cover saves, but Skimmers moving fast only gain a 5+ (like cheap 1-shot Smoke). For better consistency, either bring Turbo-boosting down to a 4+ or (more sensibly), bring Flat Out up to a 3+. At least Skimmers don't have to go Flat Out to get their SMF save, and that Cruising Speed (6+") is enough for the 5+.

3. Assigning wounds to models out of sight / range, but not assigning hits to models out of sight / range. Better to assume models move up and die, as it appears that 40k5 is increasing lethality. The out of sight / range should simply count as non-Exposed for the purposes of determining whether the unit may take Cover Saves.

____

...

I'm happy with bikes being the fastest vehicles but I think a 3+ cover save is a bit too good.

The rules on assigning wounds and stuff look like they are going to be as big a mess as the current rules, which I still have difficulty understanding.

Going through this PDF is quite funny. It's amazing the amount of stuff they've added that we've had in The Revisited Project for years now. I mean even something as simple as Ballistic Skill 6 and above - we've had that in our rules for years, and now they're adding it? We made pistols 'effectivley' Assault 1 a while back. We added Ramming rules that are simpler.

I think we'll take credit for that one, along with Shadow of the Warp, something I made a year or so before the 'Nid Codex.

Other things are written in a way to make new players go 'Huh'? Using the BS6+ example again, they talk about a character that's BS7 firing a Plasma Pistol who rolls a 1, and therefore gets to re-roll it. They also mention how it allows him to avoid the Gets Hot! rule. We haven't got to the Gets Hot! rule yet, so mentioning it is pointless as new players won't even have the slightest clue what it is and it's likely to stop them reading so they can leaf through to the weapon section. Why even bother mentioning it - why even mention the weapon, it's immaterial to the example and does nothing but clutter it up, yet they seem to want to include it. Doesn't make sense. Examples as supposed to be clear, not introduce new concepts mid-fg-sentence

It's idiotic that you have no choice whether IC's join units.

As I've said before, Defensive Weapons = S4 and below = Epic Fail for these rules.

I love their justification of Ordnance being the only weapon that can fire - 'requires the attention of all the crew'. Why? Isn't the point of having multiple crew so the tank can do different things at the same time? Do they all stop to wish the gunner good luck, or deliver a catchy one-liner each time they fire?

The Hull Down in Area Terrain rule is not at all congruent with the Cover Saves in area terrain. Infantry get it no matter how much is touching, and vehicles still have to have 50% covered...

Hit & Run now adds yet another dice roll to the game for no apparent reason.

The Kill Point system is just... oh... words fail me.

VP's are only used in the case of objective-based ties. Wonderful.


No, having read through it, I take back what I said. The 'scoring unit' rules are stupid, the 'Kill Point' rule makes me wonder (and desire) the drugs the Dev team uses for their 'brain storming & sniffing glue' sessions, and their vehicle rules make me thank the Emperor for The Revisited Project.

BYE

I've read the pdf and since it's in so early a state, I can only comment that I think it's a move in the right direction. The only thing that absolutely kills me is the defensvie weapons being S4 or less. Vehicles should be mobile rather than static pillboxes. I hope the leave the defensive weapons being S6 or less, like they got it in 4th edition. They had the righ mobility + firepower feel, even though they blew up like crap.

I'm over the 'ooh and ahh' phase with 40K. Fluff's great, models are great, but I'm looking for a good game with a good core ruleset. S4 defensive weapons, and the effect it has on vehicle use, would be a major detractor for me within that context.

Kudos to GW for great fluff and models, though. 10 out of 10 there, no doubt.

Sorry, I'm going to go on record here and say I like the new rules. A lot.

For the most part, it balances the game a lot.

I like the fact that you can't move and fire gobs and gobs of weapons now. It's about mobility or about shooting, you do not get everything in one easy to use package. More choices mean more mistakes or good moves.

And to balance that, Tanks of all kinds except Holofield Skimmers got much harder to kill. That would normally be a problem, except VP Denial armies don't really work most of the time now. I don't care if your Falcon isn't dead, I've got troops on an objective - I win.

At the same time, you can neutralize tanks by glancing them. Sure Venom Cannon's can't KILL tanks, but you can stop them from shooting the crap out of your now important troops.

And if you really NEED to kill tanks, you can if you use the right weapons to do the job - which includes things like Meltas or Power Fists, or rending in many cases. Skimmers don't get cover saves from CC attacks, and AP1 helps a lot.