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The Khornate skull rune is not a stylized winged skull. The tops of the two "Bunny Ears" of the helmet are the 'orbits' of the skull, with the bottoms forming the cheekbones and the helmet itself forming whatever it is called that holds your top teeth.

These helmets were employed by Khorne associated Chaos Warriors and Berzerkers long before the Night Lords were given a paint-scheme, and well-before they were given those ridiculous bat-winged helmets. It's hard for Khorne Berzerkers to steal something they had first.

Though, funny story: at one point I considered buying a bunch of those Night Lord winged helmets and using them to designate Raptors...

I did not realise I complained, sorry.

Actually I said my main objection but hey yeah.

Of and see codex space wolves as they now have exactly the same if not better than my "best troop choice in the game"

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This might be true if you limit your enjoyment of the Hobby to just winning games as easily as possible.

The problem is not about winning, I dont care (in a non tourney environment) if I win. It's whether or not I have a chance of winning.

However, the problem is the GAP between the chances of winning. There is a massive difference between the 1 cookie cutter list and using things like Bikes, Possessed, etc. which are completely cost inefficient. You will be completely outnumbered even moreso than usual, except this time you will have worse units. If you take things like Bikes you are going to get completely slaughtered. To say its simply ok to go into a battle expecting to lose is unrealistic. However, thats just the way it is if you dont run the best units.

The only unit that really falls into the medium tier that I can think of are raptors (basically CSMs with jump packs). They can be good if used properly, but an army focused around them just wont work. A few rule changes (ie. making them scoring) would help tremendously, but as of right now, taking a regular squad in a rhino for less points and scoring is just so much better and almost the exact same thing.

----

As for how to make Night Lords (or any other legion) fluffy, look at the old codex. A rule as simple as stealth (an old NLs special rule) for the entire army would change things a ton. Cover would now only have 1/3 marines dying instead of 1/2. Going to ground in cover would have 1/6 marines dying instead of 1/3. They would be harder to kill, like they should be - theyre the elite versions of already elite units. Mix this in with night vision, maybe raptors scoring for them, and you have a completely different playstyle and a unique army. Look, it only took 3 rules to do that.

Ofcourse, they wouldnt be able to use the non NL units like oblits, defilers, daemons, etc. in return for their new rules. That balances things out, and keeps things fresh and original.

As of right now my "Night Lords" play no different to black legion, alpha legion, iron warriors, and so on. If you were to swap my blue armour with black, you wouldnt even know there was a difference.

And which bit of 'when we wrote this book, the plan was to cover the Legions in their own books' is it you are struggling with exactly?

That is why you don't have a World Eater/Death Guard/Thousand Son/Emperor's Children Lord available. They will seemingly be covered in their own books.

At least Gav had the good graces to point out that whether this is still the plan or not, is information he doesn't have.

Interesting you mentioned that unit restrictions in exchange for spangly rules somehow keeps things fresh. It doesn't. It simply limits your list options immensely. Now given their own book, rather than the mish-mash of fail/win that was the last book, you could have more restricted access to such units, either with 0-1 or FoC Slot Shifts, and THEN you are opening stuff up. Night Lords may not be noted for their use of Obliterators, but sooner or later stealth has to give way to brute force. Perhaps your force represents a distraction army. Engage the enemy with heavy stuff so smaller forces can better infiltrate whilst their attention is fixed on the very obvious threat?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And which bit of 'when we wrote this book, the plan was to cover the Legions in their own books' is it you are struggling with exactly?

That is why you don't have a World Eater/Death Guard/Thousand Son/Emperor's Children Lord available. They will seemingly be covered in their own books.

At least Gav had the good graces to point out that whether this is still the plan or not, is information he doesn't have.

You asked why I dont use the other options for fun. I gave you a reason that has absolutely nothing to do with legions. The units as are already are unbalanced and not fun to use. Its almost as if this book is a demo version of the final book, just giving us a taste of each unit.

As for the legions, the CSM codex came out over 2 years ago. The best weve gotten off a legions book is an "announcement" this year that they might do one, but it wont be for a long time. So because they decided not take 15 minutes to copy and paste the legions rules into the new codex, until then I have to play with a dumbed down soulless army with no customization or variety?

And who knows how theyre going to do it? For all I know, the Night Lords (who are probably the least popular) are going to be last and 10 years away. But just hang in there right?

Great reasoning...

Cover would now only have 1/3 marines dying instead of 1/2. Going to ground in cover would have 1/6 marines dying instead of 1/3.

As an example. In addition to the general PA save, they can also take this rule as an option? I shoot 6 marines and in all likelihood one dies, instead of three? Terminators? Do they get this rule? Why/why not? If that's possible, why can't Striking Scorpions get it? This game is unbalanced...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Interesting you mentioned that unit restrictions in exchange for spangly rules somehow keeps things fresh. It doesn't. It simply limits your list options immensely. Now given their own book, rather than the mish-mash of fail/win that was the last book, you could have more restricted access to such units, either with 0-1 or FoC Slot Shifts, and THEN you are opening stuff up. Night Lords may not be noted for their use of Obliterators, but sooner or later stealth has to give way to brute force. Perhaps your force represents a distraction army. Engage the enemy with heavy stuff so smaller forces can better infiltrate whilst their attention is fixed on the very obvious threat?

Wrong. And Wrong again. You sound just as ignorant as Gav. Clearly there are people who like the idea that some units (that I personally like) are powered up at the expense of not being able to use other units (units i generally dont like). This is the ENTIRE idea around legions. You are restricted some units for balance purposes, but you are given an entirely new playstyle. Like I said, NLs would be moving from cover to cover having a 3+ save, or a 2+ save when going to ground. Having raptors as scoring means you now have a build (an all raptors list) that is impossible to use with this codex.

This would change the way its played and open up completely new lists and tactics.

If you dont like restrictions, play black legion. Nothing is stopping you from having berzerkers running alongside a slaneesh squad. That option is and was ALWAYS there. All they did was take away the OPTION to play as the different legions with special rules.

So it's my imagination that you can freely mix and match your various units, rules etc, and that indeed does equate to customisation and variety?

Perhaps we have different books?

You also neatly avoided my point that the Chaos Space Marine book is just that. A book about Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps I should whinge that the Space Marine Codex does not represent Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Black Templars?

That was the ethos the book was designed in. The plan, as Gav stated which set that ethos was to have further books offering specialised lists for those itching to do a more specific style of warfare. You however, seem to be demanding the book does something it was not supposed to do.

Does it suck that said Legion Codecies are yet to materialise? Yup. I quite fancy a full on Death Guard army. Is that reason to lambast the author and book already written? Absolutely not.

endless wrote:

Cover would now only have 1/3 marines dying instead of 1/2. Going to ground in cover would have 1/6 marines dying instead of 1/3.

As an example. In addition to the general PA save, they can also take this rule as an option? I shoot 6 marines and in all likelihood one dies, instead of three? Terminators? Do they get this rule? Why/why not? If that's possible, why can't Striking Scorpions get it? This game is unbalanced...

Uhh, What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So it's my imagination that you can freely mix and match your various units, rules etc, and that indeed does equate to customisation and variety?

Perhaps we have different books?

You also neatly avoided my point that the Chaos Space Marine book is just that. A book about Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps I should whinge that the Space Marine Codex does not represent Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Black Templars?

That was the ethos the book was designed in. The plan, as Gav stated which set that ethos was to have further books offering specialised lists for those itching to do a more specific style of warfare. You however, seem to be demanding the book does something it was not supposed to do.

Does it suck that said Legion Codecies are yet to materialise? Yup. I quite fancy a full on Death Guard army. Is that reason to lambast the author and book already written? Absolutely not.

Oh my...

You could do all those things in the old book. The new one just took away options.

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines. I dont care about SW, BAs, DAs or BTs. They all have books, the Chaos Legions dont.

Im demanding the book do something it wasnt supposed to do...even though the old book did it in 1 page and is 100% related to CSMs. Your logic makes no sense.

Nurglitch wrote:The Khornate skull rune is not a stylized winged skull. The tops of the two "Bunny Ears" of the helmet are the 'orbits' of the skull, with the bottoms forming the cheekbones and the helmet itself forming whatever it is called that holds your top teeth.

I think you're the only one seeing that. Some guy said it was a schooner.

Nurglitch wrote:These helmets were employed by Khorne associated Chaos Warriors and Berzerkers long before the Night Lords were given a paint-scheme, and well-before they were given those ridiculous bat-winged helmets. It's hard for Khorne Berzerkers to steal something they had first.

Khorne Berzerkers didn't exist until after Slaves to Darkness (previously Khornate assault marines had been called, or rather drawn from, 'The Company of the Chosen' back when the World Eaters were a chapter not a legion) at about the same time that Night lords lost their Khornate affiliation and associated paint schemes. Still, I'm being sarcastic when I say that Khorne Berzerkers stole the imagery, it's not like the Salamander-Dark Angel paint scheme plot.

Night Lords wrote:

endless wrote:

Cover would now only have 1/3 marines dying instead of 1/2. Going to ground in cover would have 1/6 marines dying instead of 1/3.

As an example. In addition to the general PA save, they can also take this rule as an option? I shoot 6 marines and in all likelihood one dies, instead of three? Terminators? Do they get this rule? Why/why not? If that's possible, why can't Striking Scorpions get it? This game is unbalanced...

Uhh, What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So it's my imagination that you can freely mix and match your various units, rules etc, and that indeed does equate to customisation and variety?

Perhaps we have different books?

You also neatly avoided my point that the Chaos Space Marine book is just that. A book about Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps I should whinge that the Space Marine Codex does not represent Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Black Templars?

That was the ethos the book was designed in. The plan, as Gav stated which set that ethos was to have further books offering specialised lists for those itching to do a more specific style of warfare. You however, seem to be demanding the book does something it was not supposed to do.

Does it suck that said Legion Codecies are yet to materialise? Yup. I quite fancy a full on Death Guard army. Is that reason to lambast the author and book already written? Absolutely not.

Oh my...

You could do all those things in the old book. The new one just took away options.

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines. I dont care about SW, BAs, DAs or BTs. They all have books, the Chaos Legions dont.

Im demanding the book do something it wasnt supposed to do...even though the old book did it in 1 page and is 100% related to CSMs. Your logic makes no sense.

And Captain Obtuse strikes yet again. See him gamely refuse to actually read what someone has posted, and instead just spout hyperbole as he works himself up into a frenzy of willful ignorance.

Current CSM book = Book to represent 'Vanilla' Chaos, from Black Legion to newly renegade Marines.

Next step was to do books specific to other Legions. THAT IS WHY THE CURRENT BOOK DOES NOT HAVE YOUR PRECIOUS RULES IN THEM. YOUR PRECIOUS RULES WERE PLANNED FOR A SEPERATE VOLUME, WHERE YOU MIGHT GET TROOPS, LET ALONE RULES, SPECIFIC TO YOUR LEGION.*

Gah!


*Text Capitalised not to show shouting, but to point stuff out to the hard of understanding.

This is the ENTIRE idea around legions.

erm, what?

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines.

They have a codex then. Honestly, what makes them so different that they need your spesshul roolze?

Maybe because most other armies have a way to take an HQ to give them special rules to better represent their background?

Or for the Eldar, they simply have a good enough variety of troops to do so as well.

I have always maintained that it was the "undivided" legions that were hurt the worst by the new codex. You can make a fluffier night lords list with the Space Marine codex than you can with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and that is a travesty.

endless wrote:
OK, Daemons. In Slaves to Darkness Daemonettes were better in combat than Bloodletters, sacred numbers made it balance. Against the background, but if you want to go back to it, ok. TBH, I like generic daemons. We can field our models without complications, my Juan Diaz Daemonettes don't need explaining, old Khornate daemons can be used, it's all good, no?

If it works for you, more power to you.

Personally I don't think it makes sense that now, Daemonettes are the same as Bloodletters who are the same as Plaguebearers and so on and so forth.

I honestly wouldn't have minded 'Generic' Lesser and Greater Daemons if you could've just given them a mark. Then I wouldn't have cared. Or at least wouldn't have cared nearly as much.

Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Genestealer Magi, Ork Warlords, Inquisitors, Squat Living Ancestors, everyone could take loads of stuff. They can't now. Some of them can't take 'exist' as an option.

Haha, that is cruel. Above though, I said that though I could complain about some lost wargear (like anti-plant missiles and the like),but everyone lost them so it's not valid.

Gifts? Can you model uncontrollable flatulence? Or provide enough models to be able to represent YOUR unit with pin-head mutation to conform with WYSIWYG? Why can't I know if I get Fearsome Appearance or Stupid before the battle, so I can deploy to best effect?

Well, to be totally serious, you could model it.
If I recall correctly, WYSIWYG wasn't as big of a deal back then as it is now. So while back then I guess it wasn't so big of a deal, now you have to know everything.

As to the rest, well, TBH, 40k was an afterthought. Most of the tables from WFB were available as an option, but even then the two books were a halfway house between W.F.R.P. and a small scale skirmish system. Yes, I made my chaos 40k from those lists and I loved them. I can still use the same models now. I couldn't until this codex was released.

To be honest I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that prior to the new codex, you couldn't use your same models? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's what I'm seeing.

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines.

They have a codex then. Honestly, what makes them so different that they need your spesshul roolze?

Well,by that logic,why bother with a new Space Wolf codex,or Dark Angels,or any other SM chapter,after all a SM codex already exist,why do theese chaptes need " spesshul roolze?"

To be honest I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that prior to the new codex, you couldn't use your same models? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's what I'm seeing.

No, you're not reading wrong. My E.C. are just that, Emperor's Children Marines. They Are Not Noise Marines. Noise Marines Are A Joke Made Up By D.Rok.

Now I can quite easily use the same models I had, or, as I am doing, remake my models as a heresy era force without the stupidity. Yay!


(i agree about the mark on daemons but sshh I'm huntin' wabbbits)

Well,by that logic,why bother with a new Space Wolf codex,or Dark Angels,or any other SM chapter,after all a SM codex already exist,why do theese chaptes need " spesshul roolze?"

You said it, not me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst I get those who choose the former were miffed about losing some of the perks (Sacred Numbers, Daemons specific to their God etc) I feel the current book reflects Chaos pretty accurately.
[...]
Sure, with Chaos you have the background explaining the God's Rivalries, but to assume they only every possibly work together during a full on Black Crusade seems a little dull to me. I quite like the idea of my army being disparate groups gathering together for their own nefarious reasons, and would fully expect all manner of underhanded shenanigans to be going to ensure it is their God, and not the others, that reaps the most reward. Again, many people disagree with this and impose restrictions upon themselves in the way I have with my Savage Orcs. I don't think it's so much a concern of who is 'more right' in their view, as just accepting neither side is wrong.

This peculiar Hobby of ours is many things to many people. Some might like to collect a really hard army, pieceing it together with little concern for the background. Others might go the opposite, and create a heavily themed force with little concern for board effectiveness. Others still might prefer to simply procure whichever models they like, and form their army that way. In this respect the Chaos Codex works wonderfully. It caters to all kinds of Hobbyists.

You got a good point there MDG. Still, while I don't really care about board effectiveness it was the fact that I had so many nice special rules that was part of getting me to play Death Guard. Sure, I don't get to use a lot of neat stuff but there are so many little things that made it worth it. Take sacred number for example. Now there was a very fluffy rule and you got some spare points out of it. But now I really don't know if it's a good idea to keep using only 7 men squads. Plague Marines can take a punch, but fearless units that small get overun easily. Back when I got some good out of it I took the chance, but now I don't see why I should even try.

And I have not that much of a problem with combinded chaos forces, but Lash is such ridicocoulsly effective that few players leave home without it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Night Lords wrote:So it's not "LRN2PLY", its the fact that there are a few units that just simply outperform all the others, and then those few units have so few upgrade options that there generally is 1 obvious way to run them (such as 2x meltas, rhino, IoCG, champ, and fist w/ CSM). There is no reason to take possessed, bikes, spawn, etc.

This might be true if you limit your enjoyment of the Hobby to just winning games as easily as possible.

Possessed and Spawn are a modellers dream unit. They can look like whatever you want them to look like, and the book allows you to field them. Same with Bikes. I'm not a fan of the bike models, so perhaps I'll convert up something similarly sized I find more aesthetically pleasing purely for the sake of modelling. That I can then field them in a game is a bonus.

They are without a doubt great opportunities for modelling and I usually really don't care if I win a battle or not, but Spawns and Possessed are so utterly useless even I can't rbing me to field them anymore.

Night Lords wrote:
As of right now my "Night Lords" play no different to black legion, alpha legion, iron warriors, and so on. If you were to swap my blue armour with black, you wouldnt even know there was a difference.

That's exaclty my point. I also take all the restrictions that come with Death Guard but I don't get anything out of it anymore. Even less in fact, since I only have one unit left which is truly dedicated to Nurgle and not just smells a little.

endless wrote:
I have always maintained that it was the "undivided" legions that were hurt the worst by the new codex. You can make a fluffier night lords list with the Space Marine codex than you can with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and that is a travesty.

QFT



Automatically Appended Next Post:

FITZZ wrote:

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines.

They have a codex then. Honestly, what makes them so different that they need your spesshul roolze?

Well,by that logic,why bother with a new Space Wolf codex,or Dark Angels,or any other SM chapter,after all a SM codex already exist,why do theese chaptes need " spesshul roolze?"

EXALT!

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst I get those who choose the former were miffed about losing some of the perks (Sacred Numbers, Daemons specific to their God etc) I feel the current book reflects Chaos pretty accurately.
[...]
Sure, with Chaos you have the background explaining the God's Rivalries, but to assume they only every possibly work together during a full on Black Crusade seems a little dull to me. I quite like the idea of my army being disparate groups gathering together for their own nefarious reasons, and would fully expect all manner of underhanded shenanigans to be going to ensure it is their God, and not the others, that reaps the most reward. Again, many people disagree with this and impose restrictions upon themselves in the way I have with my Savage Orcs. I don't think it's so much a concern of who is 'more right' in their view, as just accepting neither side is wrong.

This peculiar Hobby of ours is many things to many people. Some might like to collect a really hard army, pieceing it together with little concern for the background. Others might go the opposite, and create a heavily themed force with little concern for board effectiveness. Others still might prefer to simply procure whichever models they like, and form their army that way. In this respect the Chaos Codex works wonderfully. It caters to all kinds of Hobbyists.

You got a good point there MDG. Still, while I don't really care about board effectiveness it was the fact that I had so many nice special rules that was part of getting me to play Death Guard. Sure, I don't get to use a lot of neat stuff but there are so many little things that made it worth it. Take sacred number for example. Now there was a very fluffy rule and you got some spare points out of it. But now I really don't know if it's a good idea to keep using only 7 men squads. Plague Marines can take a punch, but fearless units that small get overun easily. Back when I got some good out of it I took the chance, but now I don't see why I should even try.

And I have not that much of a problem with combinded chaos forces, but Lash is such ridicocoulsly effective that few players leave home without it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Night Lords wrote:So it's not "LRN2PLY", its the fact that there are a few units that just simply outperform all the others, and then those few units have so few upgrade options that there generally is 1 obvious way to run them (such as 2x meltas, rhino, IoCG, champ, and fist w/ CSM). There is no reason to take possessed, bikes, spawn, etc.

This might be true if you limit your enjoyment of the Hobby to just winning games as easily as possible.

Possessed and Spawn are a modellers dream unit. They can look like whatever you want them to look like, and the book allows you to field them. Same with Bikes. I'm not a fan of the bike models, so perhaps I'll convert up something similarly sized I find more aesthetically pleasing purely for the sake of modelling. That I can then field them in a game is a bonus.

They are without a doubt great opportunities for modelling and I usually really don't care if I win a battle or not, but Spawns and Possessed are so utterly useless even I can't rbing me to field them anymore.

Night Lords wrote:
As of right now my "Night Lords" play no different to black legion, alpha legion, iron warriors, and so on. If you were to swap my blue armour with black, you wouldnt even know there was a difference.

That's exaclty my point. I also take all the restrictions that come with Death Guard but I don't get anything out of it anymore. Even less in fact, since I only have one unit left which is truly dedicated to Nurgle and not just smells a little.

endless wrote:
I have always maintained that it was the "undivided" legions that were hurt the worst by the new codex. You can make a fluffier night lords list with the Space Marine codex than you can with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and that is a travesty.

QFT



Automatically Appended Next Post:

FITZZ wrote:

Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines.

They have a codex then. Honestly, what makes them so different that they need your spesshul roolze?

Well,by that logic,why bother with a new Space Wolf codex,or Dark Angels,or any other SM chapter,after all a SM codex already exist,why do theese chaptes need " spesshul roolze?"

EXALT!

Well as Gav said, when the CSM book was written, the plan was to then produce books for each of the Legions, which would give you the Specific Fix that a Legion player craves. Thus the CSM book serves as a erm, servicable method of fielding your army in the meantime.

And hey, outside of the Competitive Arena, I think you'd have to be a great big floppy donkey dick of an opponent to refuse someone with a fully converted/themed army using the previous book.

Is it currently an ideal situation? Nope. But Gav was less excusing the way the book was written, as explaining it. As I said earlier, as we now know the ethos behind the writing of the book, it seems a little unfair to harass and harunge it's authors just because a plan changed. Especially poor Gav. Not working for the Studio anymore means he couldn't even fight it's corner!

I used to have six different Legions:

Death Guard, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Emperors Children and Thousand Sons.

Each was 2500+ points.

Now I just have one really big Chaos Apocalypse army that I don't play anymore.

Yep, Gav's input was a real winner.

Please, please re-hire Pete Haines!!!!

Ah, and we get to the core failing of all SM players that don't want CSM to have legion rules. SM players have their base codex with special characters to allow some different types of armies. Already they have more different army lists available than codex CSM. Then loyalists also get BT, BA, DA, and SW.
And then they go on to complain "Why are you whining about needing special rules, they're just chaos marines" while forgetting everything I've said above and the fact that chaos legions operate far more differently than "generic" chaos than say blood angels do from "generic" codex marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And hey, outside of the Competitive Arena, I think you'd have to be a great big floppy donkey dick of an opponent to refuse someone with a fully converted/themed army using the previous book.

This statement is ridiculous. Refusing to play against an outdated set of rules doesn't make you a dick.

It does if someone has clearly spent a lot of time and effort to create their army a certain way matey. And as I said, Competitive Environments are an exception. Does this mean other books in dire need of an update, due to being horrendously out of date (Necron and Dark Eldar perhaps?) should be refused because their book isn't up to date?

Though equally, if you want to field your Specific Legion against me, you have to use the previous book and nothing but the previous book. No just using the organisation and enjoying new points and toys!

About the statement about stuff being justTraitor Marines[/i]. That was someone being called out on a stupid statement. A CSM player making said stupid statement.

For some reason, my post is still in moderation, even though I posted it on the 11th. Not sure what it is about what I said that's so scary:

The studio lately has been stressing that they’re trying to make codecies that fit the background and are guidelines to how to approach an army.
What I don’t understand, is why is that mutually exclusive from game balance ideology? They’re not mutually exclusive.

The key component of games design has always been about fun…game balance is but a small part of the big equation. But it’s still part of the equation. I think guidelines and background are necessary as well, but I think forgetting about micro and macro balance hurt the codex as a whole.

For instance, look at the concept behind chosen and how it was implemented. The rules didn’t represent them being CHOSEN, simply by virtue of their stat and option similarity to basic chaos marines! So of course, people picked the cult marines over the chosen. How are they chosen? Ruleswise, they’re chaos marines with infiltrate…that’s the key thing you’re missing…too much time was spent on background and guidelines, but the rules didn’t accurately represent the background or the guidelines.

In the context of the chaos codex, the chosen simply didn’t make any sense…they seemed less chosen than plague marines because of their balance issues.

Once again, background and guidelines are NOT mutually exclusive with rules design and games balance.

I’m sorry Gav, but I feel you missed the boat on this one.

EDIT: I'm not sure it's clear, but GW writes rules to fit their background and wish it to be a guideline to how to make armies. My problem with it is that they use this as justification when a codex is imbalanced. I mentioned to a GW higher up once, how did rules of warding and runes of witnessing confusion get through? It's on the same page! I was told, well, they don't write codecies for tournaments or that way, they just try to make rules that fit the background. WHy can't rules both fit the background and be clean and concise? What does writing rules for background have anything to do with whether or not the rules make sense or are balanced? In fact, I would say to be successful at games design that you need to do both parts of the equation: I would fail equally as hard if I made a super balanced Tau Codex that was assault oriented as Gav failed with the Chaos codex.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And Captain Obtuse strikes yet again. See him gamely refuse to actually read what someone has posted, and instead just spout hyperbole as he works himself up into a frenzy of willful ignorance.

Current CSM book = Book to represent 'Vanilla' Chaos, from Black Legion to newly renegade Marines.

Next step was to do books specific to other Legions. THAT IS WHY THE CURRENT BOOK DOES NOT HAVE YOUR PRECIOUS RULES IN THEM. YOUR PRECIOUS RULES WERE PLANNED FOR A SEPERATE VOLUME, WHERE YOU MIGHT GET TROOPS, LET ALONE RULES, SPECIFIC TO YOUR LEGION.*

Gah!


*Text Capitalised not to show shouting, but to point stuff out to the hard of understanding.

Ok buddy, what are you, 12? Name calling, insulting, and so on?

You are arguing opinions. Your opinion means JACK gak to anyone. Your opinion is in the minority of chaos players (if you even play chaos, which i severely doubt).

You talk as if Im the one hard of hearing yet youve got your head so far up your you know what that you cant even read what Im saying. It doesnt matter if theyre taking away legions to make seperate books. The fact is I dont have to agree with this approach. Youre implying that I have to like the way GW did this, even though now I, along with every chaos player out there, have to play under these new garbage rules for what? 5 years? 7? 10? Who knows? So basically Im left with an army on the shelf for YEARS because they didnt want to write 1 page about Night Lords.

So I MIGHT get a legions book, I MIGHT get troops, and I MIGHT get a specific NLs book, but I MIGHT also be out of the hobby, moved onto a different army, or even dead by then. The point is I cant play with my army NOW that I could BEFORE. Get it? If this was a new feature then youd be 100% right, wait for the new books. But they took away the rules and units leaving Chaos players with unplayable armies, and even worse, left us with a bland boring book where theres essentially only one way to play it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It does if someone has clearly spent a lot of time and effort to create their army a certain way matey. And as I said, Competitive Environments are an exception. Does this mean other books in dire need of an update, due to being horrendously out of date (Necron and Dark Eldar perhaps?) should be refused because their book isn't up to date?

Oh my god. Im arguing with Gav Thrope himself. People should not have to play outdated codex books, nor should anyone be expected to. People should be expected to play by the latest rules.

I'm not saying you have to play by the old book, but I am suggesting it as another option open to you.

Now. One. Last. Time.

When the current book was written, the plan was to follow it up with future volumes about the specific Legions yes? This plan may have changed, nobody seems to know for sure.

As such, the CSM book isn't geared for said Legions. Thus, I really do reccomend picking up your old book, dusting it down, and using it on account that it was the last time a Night Lords list was printed, yes? Makes sense? Or are you really just looking to troll and pick a fight? Believe it or not, I am actually AGREEING with you about the lack of representation of certain Legions in the current book. But rather than just pissing and whinging anonymously online, I'm pointing out the authors explanation as to why, and trying to be constuctive in the meantime.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'm not saying you have to play by the old book, but I am suggesting it as another option open to you.

Now. One. Last. Time.

When the current book was written, the plan was to follow it up with future volumes about the specific Legions yes? This plan may have changed, nobody seems to know for sure.

As such, the CSM book isn't geared for said Legions. Thus, I really do reccomend picking up your old book, dusting it down, and using it on account that it was the last time a Night Lords list was printed, yes? Makes sense? Or are you really just looking to troll and pick a fight? Believe it or not, I am actually AGREEING with you about the lack of representation of certain Legions in the current book. But rather than just pissing and whinging anonymously online, I'm pointing out the authors explanation as to why, and trying to be constuctive in the meantime.

And "One. Last. Time."

People dont have to accept this decision to exclude the legion rules now because they MIGHT do one later. You talk as if we have to wait a week or two before our armies are playable once more. Its going to be 5 years. 5 years. Oh but thats ok but we know it's coming right?

People can be pissed and theres nothing you can say or do about it, and seeing as how much time and money this stuff costs, I think it's 100% justified. You are not helping anyone feel better about the army, you are not magically going to make this codex more fun, and you are not going to make this waiting time (no one knows when or even if there will be a legion book) more fun. All you are doing is pissing Chaos players off by telling them to STFU and stop "whining", when "whining" is exactly what needs to done to get a new book or rules out ASAP.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As such, the CSM book isn't geared for said Legions. Thus, I really do reccomend picking up your old book, dusting it down, and using it on account that it was the last time a Night Lords list was printed, yes? Makes sense? Or are you really just looking to troll and pick a fight? Believe it or not, I am actually AGREEING with you about the lack of representation of certain Legions in the current book. But rather than just pissing and whinging anonymously online, I'm pointing out the authors explanation as to why, and trying to be constuctive in the meantime.

And the ability to find someone to play against a list using the old book is close to nil. Especially a random pick-up game.

Asking questions to the Studio? That might help.
Complaining to the Studio/your local Store. That might help.
Pissing and whinging in the safe anonymity of the Interwebs? That helps nothing.

I'm not telling people to STFU and stop whining. I'm suggesting doing something actually creative with your time rather than stressing about it.

Gav's point, and what I've been trying to get across to you, is that you cannot look at the book in a microcosm. To do that is to feel total frustration, because you are just focussing on the negative. But when you are told WHY a certain change was made, you can continue to be pissed off, but are at least informed more, and hopefully feel less screwed until the new book comes out. Chaos players have a nasty habit these days of coming across as whinging martyrs to their own cross, with claims that GW deliberately set out to get them for their alleged power gaming ways.

So, when did you last send an Email to the Studio asking about the progress (or indeed lack thereof) of the Legion books

One, last, time. What Night Lord model can't you use now that you could use before?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So, when did you last send an Email to the Studio asking about the progress (or indeed lack thereof) of the Legion books

+1. Because they'd definitely tell you information about upcoming releases that they hadn't yet made public, especially if that release was six months or a year or more away.




No, wait...

skyth:

And I wonder why that is? Surely with the sheer mass of Chaos Space Marine players crying out for the 3.5 codex, one could easily find someone willing to play against it.