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smart_alex wrote:I've taken on chaos players before. Singlehandedly. I've never swayed from my position, look at my posting history. Its no secret I do not like chaos in here. THey are the worst. THey claim they like fluff but then complain by saying the new codex nerf's fluff.

I like the fluff. The new book ruins the fluff by not adhering to it. Where is the problem for you? Logical trains of thought?

Fluff and rules are two separate things. Fluff is in your head and imagination.

Oh, okay. So it's normal when the rules don't follow the fluff at all?

No person has been able to tell me how the new dex affects fluff.

Oh really! Then let me be the first! It affects fluff by TOTALLY CONTRADICTING THE OLD FLUFF. Phew, that was easy! Cross that one off your list.

Keep in mind now that doctrines are gone, I have yet to observe IG players complaining about fluff. Tallern players still play tallern, Cadian players still play Cadians, Steel Legion still play SL, and Catachan players still play catachan. etc.. This shows the difference. The players who actually have skill and like chaos for the fluff still play them. What do rules have to do with fluff? Nothing.

Oh, okay, only the skilled enough people still like chaos. Or was it that the internet people were ruining it for everyone? You anti-options people are all over the place.

People are just upset since the new CSm dex that they actually have to learn to play. The Chaos players that KNOW how to play are still kicking butt all over the place.

No. No no no. You are so wrong it is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but are you dense? The new book is MORE POWERFUL THAN the old book.

Get a clue and stop complaining. That new dex was the event that made people question why they would want to play an army that is stupid, and looks like a circus. It brought balance and got rid of the most broken army in the game. I even thought about starting a korne army after the new dex came out just because I LIKE THE FLUFF. All red models, out for blood. I would probably lose a lot but it would be highly themed.

Oh. Unfortunately I must inform you that the most broken army in the game was replaced by a boring, brokener army.

Sooo you are wrong on all points. Thoughts? Attempts at rebuttal?

And it was written by Jervis. Then Jervis leaves 40K. Then he returns some years later and what are the next two Codices we get?

Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines

This is one of the reasons I don't completely blame Gav.

ph34r wrote:No. No no no. You are so wrong it is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but are you dense? The new book is MORE POWERFUL THAN the old book.

If you'll back me up I'll PM yak and lego about having Alex's user title changed to 'Ralph Wiggum' because I swear that's the voice I hear when I read his posts. To put it another way, you cannot argue with someone who doesn't realise that they're in an argument...

Jervis is the opposite of Gav in terms of game design.

Gav likes to build conservative.

Jervis likes to build over-the-top.

The fact that you have multiple codex authors with such different opinions of what makes a "good list" is one of the reasons why codex-to-codex balance is pretty poor.

Unfortunately, Codex: CSM, and Codex: Dark Angels were written while GW was having a balance swing towards more conservative. Then GW realized that they weren't selling models by hitting codices with the nerf hammer.

And then BOOM Orks/Daemons/Guard/Space Wolves.

Tyranids should be awesome. Different awesome, as the pendulum will probably be swung as hard with them as with Marines, but still awesome.

Well... they gave the newbie Guard... and he wrote a brilliant list (I know you disagree) but his rules writing was frustratingly bad.

If he can get his rules together (which I know GW cares little about) then I think the Tyranid codex will be great in his hands.

I don't think it was a bad list. My ire from the Guard Codex comes from the fact that it was a lateral step rather than a forward step and things that should have been fixed - like Ogryn and Storm Troopers - weren't fixed, all in favour of new units like Psyker Squads and Penal Legionaries.

The other thing is the lack of support from GW. The whole 'wave' concept has been a mess from the start, and with a Codex so full of units not represented by GW model kits (not counting FW), it sucks to be in a situation no army has suffered since... well... since the Tau came out. It's like 3rd Ed Orks, with half their stuff simply not existing in model form until 4th Ed Orks hit.

And the overabundance of Special Characters, but that's less a Guard problem and more a Jervishammer problem.

Well... there is at least one bright side for the orks: they can model for advantage like crazy because everyone is used to them building vehicles however the feth they want.

I think that for the most part I agree with H.B.M.C. I feel that the Blandhammer (Oooh, I wonder if I just coined a new phrase?) has fallen too harshly upon the spiky heads of our beloved chaotic marines. They used to be so ridiculously interesting... Sure, they were complicated as hell, but by the gods, they were SO FUN.

I have to agree with the comments about CSM becoming too bland and generic. While I havent been a long time CSM player and therefore my opinion doesnt count as much, I have noticed the difference between the current codex and previous iterations.

However, having read through Gav Thorpe's blog and reading some of the user submitted comments, I do feel sympathy for him. I wouldnt want my work to be publicly lambasted and pilloried, and I wouldnt want it to happen on my own blog (if I had one). There is a difference between being constructive and just being rude. Unfortunately the old adage always proves true:

Internet + anonymity = donkey-cave

smart_alex wrote:I've taken on chaos players before. Singlehandedly. I've never swayed from my position, look at my posting history. Its no secret I do not like chaos in here. THey are the worst. THey claim they like fluff but then complain by saying the new codex nerf's fluff.

Wait, we claim we like fluff and then complain when the new codex takes a hacksaw to fluff's genitals? There's no contradiction there, it's a basic follow-through. I like chocolate, thus I dislike it when the dairy stops selling chocolate.

smart_alex wrote:
Fluff and rules are two separate things. Fluff is in your head and imagination.

No, rules and fluff must work together in tandem in order to achieve a full gaming experience. What you're arguing is that if every army was but a renamed SM codex as far as rules go, it would be a fluffy army? No way. A fluffy army has veterans warriors who don't have less of the gods' favour than the average Joe soldier. A fluffy army gives options for multiple armies from the same dex. However you spin it, giving the seige specialists ordnance tanks was a fluffy move and removing them was an unfluffy choice. Taking the hordes of fleshed out, in depth daemons and replacing them with generic creatures weakens the fluff.

smart_alex wrote:
No person has been able to tell me how the new dex affects fluff.

Just to let you know, I'm a person. Now we've got that cleared up, the new dex affects fluff because it removes much fluff and adds nothing. We had whole pages dedicated to each god in the last codex. Rules aside, we don't have those any more. The fluffy information about each weapon was removed. Where is the history of the Kai Gun in the new dex? That's what fluff is, that's what the old dex had and that's what the new dex lacks. That is how the new Chaos Codex affects the fluff.

smart_alex wrote:
Keep in mind now that doctrines are gone, I have yet to observe IG players complaining about fluff. Tallern players still play tallern, Cadian players still play Cadians, Steel Legion still play SL, and Catachan players still play catachan. etc.. This shows the difference. The players who actually have skill and like chaos for the fluff still play them. What do rules have to do with fluff? Nothing.

I don't know too much about the IG dex, but can they still ally with DH/WH? Have they lost anything? Have their Leman Russ variants become more numerous? Have they gotten a whole new form of transport? Yes? Well if Chaos got the equivalent of that, perhaps we wouldn't be so upset. As it stands, the fluff lovers are angry because their fluffy, non competitive armies are gone and the power games are angry because their fluffy power armies are gone, and now they're stuck with Slannesh led Plague Marines who've hired a ton of obliterators for backup.

smart_alex wrote:
People are just upset since the new CSm dex that they actually have to learn to play. The Chaos players that KNOW how to play are still kicking butt all over the place.

No, this Chaos codex is more point and click than the last one. We can move enemy models! We've got plague marines! We've got the power-play, but we lack the fluff. The old dex was good because a fluffy, themed army was powerful. With this codex, you need to counts-as to the point of it being proxying simply to get a hollow shell of the themed armies of yore, and they can't hold their own against a good list.

smart_alex wrote:
Get a clue and stop complaining. That new dex was the event that made people question why they would want to play an army that is stupid, and looks like a circus. It brought balance and got rid of the most broken army in the game. I even thought about starting a korne army after the new dex came out just because I LIKE THE FLUFF. All red models, out for blood. I would probably lose a lot but it would be highly themed.

Newsflash: Chaos models didn't really change, so if they looked like a circus before, they still look it now. It killed balance and turned the broken army into a dull, unfluffy powerplay list. You thought about starting a Khorne army after the new dex comes out? Have you even SEEN the old codex? It gives you the ability to have the rules of your models actually represent what your awesome blood gatherers are. It ENCOURAGED you to make an army just like that. The new one makes your "highly themed army" difficult to build a list for, a pain to play and full of lost opportunities. Why should you as a fluff player, suffer? How is going from a codex that supports and recommends a fluffy army to a codex that has no sense of fluff at all (R.I.P. Ancient Enemies) a good choice?

smart_alex wrote:
Die Chaos scum in the name of the emperor!

Sorry, no chaos here, just ex-veteran spiky marines with no sense of fluff.

The part of his argument where he says that if you don't like something, just modify it doesn't fly either. The group I play with is so large and diverse that trying to use anything that is not in the official rules and codexes would require hours of argument and explanation, and that's if it would not be met with an automatic response of "Well no, it's not official so of course not."

I agree, the whole point of having rules is so you can get on with it and have an enjoyable game,

You don't wanna spend your whole night either arguing with someone or having to go over what rules each unit is using.

I'm most annoyed that he hasn't addressed the main problem many people have with the codex, moving the focus from the powerful 10k year old legions (one of the main reasons people collect chaos)

To focussing on new weak 'renegades' that only turned yesterday, huron blackheart possibly one of the worst special characters ever.

After reading this defense I had the terrible need to go to the bathroom. I highly recommend reading it if one has not had enough fiber recently.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Well said, H'. There have been suggestions flying around that Chaos characters should 'unlock' options for your army that let you emulate the Legions, but how does this make sense? I mean, how many Abbadons, Kharns, or Ahrimans are there? How many Chaos Lords wear Horus' lightning claw, how many Berzerkers are as skilled as Kharn, and how many Sorcerers have the same mastery of magic as Ahriman?

It's the same problem I have with the Space Marines codex; I like the codex itself, and the fun and varied options, but why should I have to take Vulkan for my Salamanders to play like Salamanders? Why do I need to take Pedro Kantor for my Crimson Fist veterans to be so powerful when that's always been their thing?

The reason for that the special rules you get make your army more powerful and need to be paid for. Buying the special character is a good way of doing that, or it could be done by some other way like making all Crimson Fist veterans 1 point more expensive or something.

Strange, last time Gav defended codex chaos he said that Alessio wrote the rules. With (3rd edition) Blood Angels he blamed Jervis.

Still it was nice to read his opinion on the subject and his attack on the people who disagree with him. I suppose he was only following orders (the brief).

Having read this I'd say that 'legion' codices are now a dead concept, probably because the chaos codex didn't sell well, probably due to people on the internet complaining. So we all know who to blame now, not Gav but HBMC!

Andy Chambers would never have stooped this low.

If Chaos didn't sell well because of lil' ol' me, then I'd consider that a win. Anything that hurts Jervis helps the rest of us.


And before any of you say anything I don't think that I have contributed in any way to the sales of Chaos (or possible lack thereof).

Hi all.
I may not agree with everything Gav said,(I do not,) but at least he responded.(Not many GW staff bother.)

And as Gav is paid by GW he has to follow thier instructions, or find another job.
The dev teams write the codexes primarily to help sell the new minature releases, and have to conform to the restrictions placed upon them.

He is accredited with writing the codex, but it was written to a design brief dictated by others.NOT the gamers but his bosses .(Jervis and the people who pay his wages.)

If you dont like the current rules for 40k , then simply find another rule set and use that.(I do.)

Pay your money and make you chioce.(There are far more choices than GW offer .)

TTFN
Lanrak.

I am sick to death of `house rule it' as Games Workshop's line. Out of all the places in the world where people play, what percentage actually takes this advice? You cannot in tournaments. You generally cannot in stores or clubs. Even most casual gaming groups seem to be pretty conservative around house ruling things. No matter how much they like to tout that line, it makes not one iota of difference. They really need to wake up and realise that the community they are speaking to is not the community in their imaginations.

As for the rest of the article, a load of rubbish. I am certainly not a critic of Gav's --- I think he has done some good work at times --- but that was really pathetic. The `arguments' were counter-intuitive and his own points on why the book is good where the very reasons why it is not. -6 points!

@Willydstyle: Thanks. Sadly, you're right.

@Elric of Grans: While I concur wholeheartedly with the first point, that's the way they've always been, and always will. However many of us tell them they aren't the majority, they think they are.

@Everyone else:

Let's split this up a bot here. There are (at least) two disparate groups who dislike the Dex -

1) People who hate their broken army (usually Iron Warriors) getting nerfed.

2) People annoyed that fluffy options are gone (Death Guard in Rhinos as Fast Attack, for example.)

People 1: Grow up. The Codex was too strong when it came out, and had to go. Next time it'll be too good again, it's how the game works. If you ahven't been playing long enough to see this cycle before then just STFU and wait.

People 2: Nonsense. Fluff isn't the same as rules - If I make something up, say a story that details an Order of Sisters being corrupted by Slaanesh, that has as much authority in fluff as someone who says it's impossible. Or a story detailing how Sebastian Thor was actually a Tyranid Vanguard Organism. The whole point is that the fluff is telling a story, I can do whatever the hell I want, and so can GW. Especially since it's THEIR fluff, you have no more right to it than anyone, and less than them. They can and will change anything they feel like changing - if you don't like it, tough.

I like this thread.

Mosg wrote:I think the best part was when he said that a Codex is just a rough guide that you should use to tell the story you want with your awesomely painted miniatures. This definitely cements my decision to transition over to Hordes and Warmachine permanently.

Well, I can see where he's getting with that. To be honest, that's the thing that I like most abput 40k. That is however no excuse for writing bad rules.

smart_alex wrote:Personally I think the new CSM codex is perfect. It got rid of all the overpowered Daemon bombs and the players that stuck around afterwards were the true chaos fans. Ppl kept hiding behind fluff. Well if you liked Korn, then just use the models and summon damons that look like Korn. You do not need all these other abilities. He basically made it so that the REAL fluff fans stuck around and everyone that left after the new DEX was just a poser that bandwagon hops to whatever they perceive is the stongest army at the time. Before it was CSM was revised they were clearly the stongest army. Unless you fought a built-to fight marine army. He weeded out the posers and only the true chaos players were left.

That is where you are wrong alex. Yes, Demon Power was a very powerful list. CSM 3.5 had a lot of stuff that was overpowered. But I don't like the new 'dex because it's less powerful. I started a Death Guard army with 3.5 which was the most perfect book to build something like that. Sure, it was pretty complicated and the army builder always screwed up the thing with the free champion, but there were real rules to play a Cult army. There were downsides like fewer units and options, but you got neat stuff as well. If you played a cult army, fluff in your army list was actually rewarded. The sacred number rule was really, really cool.
Sure, I didn't get bikes or havocs but it was a fluffy army. Now everything that was cool about this army is gone. Instead of fielding Khorne bikers and Slaaneesh Havos were back to the 3.0 version with a single unit dedicated to a god and all the others are like "well, I guess I like Tzeentch too, but not so much that I wanna end up like the core troops." That is just stupid.
I was a "true" Chaos player, but the new book appearantly didn't like that.

smart_alex wrote:I've taken on chaos players before. Singlehandedly. I've never swayed from my position, look at my posting history. Its no secret I do not like chaos in here. THey are the worst. THey claim they like fluff but then complain by saying the new codex nerf's fluff.

Fluff and rules are two separate things. Fluff is in your head and imagination.

No person has been able to tell me how the new dex affects fluff.

I just did up there. You actually got something out of using fluff. Some units and options were taken away, but you got other exclusive options instead. That is how fluff can effect the rules.

People are just upset since the new CSm dex that they actually have to learn to play. The Chaos players that KNOW how to play are still kicking butt all over the place.

I have absolutly no problem with getting beaten in 40k. I lose a lot, but I don't mind. I just miss the fun of the old book.

Die Chaos scum in the name of the emperor!

ehm....what?

Shelegelah wrote:I think that for the most part I agree with H.B.M.C. I feel that the Blandhammer (Oooh, I wonder if I just coined a new phrase?) has fallen too harshly upon the spiky heads of our beloved chaotic marines. They used to be so ridiculously interesting... Sure, they were complicated as hell, but by the gods, they were SO FUN.

I agree.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If Chaos didn't sell well because of lil' ol' me, then I'd consider that a win. Anything that hurts Jervis helps the rest of us.

What a ridiculous comment. I can only assume it was meant to be funny. Although it's not.

If you're really so fething angry about the Chaos codex, then why don't you go and respond to Thorpe's comments on his site? You can call him a liar to his face. I notice that several people have posted very critical comments there about the codex, without resorting to empty grandstanding and snide personal attacks.

Tailgunner wrote:What a ridiculous comment. I can only assume it was meant to be funny. Although it's not.

You ain't been around long, so you don't know what I'm like. I'm very often not serious, and most of my over-the-top attitude is done in a way that is meant to entertain. Snarkiness, cynicism, sarcasm - these are just some of the many tools I make use of to entertain the fair people of Dakka. And the fact that I keep showing up in so many sigs indicates to me that I'm doing something right.

When I am serious, it's most often obvious. Such as right.... now:

Tailgunner wrote:If you're really so fething angry about the Chaos codex, then why don't you go and respond to Thorpe's comments on his site? You can call him a liar to his face. I notice that several people have posted very critical comments there about the codex, without resorting to empty grandstanding and snide personal attacks.

I haven't been back to his blog, although I intend to. Actually getting to engage with the credited writer about his mess of a Codex (even if he ignores/deletes my message to him, which really would only strengthen my opinions) is something of a rare opportunity, one I intend to make use of (for good or for ill). What I have to do now is reduce what I would say into something that is both polite enough to be worth reading and not deleting immediately, but cutting enough as to eliminate the silly arguments and falsehoods he's brought up so far. And when I've done it, and posted it, you'll be the first to know Tailgunner.

Know your place tailgunner.
HBMC backs up every argument with a logical and reasonable answer.
He is not one to start shouting for the fun of it or to gain attention.

The new Dex has somewhat killed off the fun of playing chaos, your now left with an empty shell of the former list.
Yes, its possible to make alot of stronger builsd, but they are for people who tend to want a boring and cutter list.
For people who like thier fluffy armies this is a major kick in the bollocks to them, as its killed off any hope of making anything other than the failed (x13) black legion.

Elric of Grans wrote:I am sick to death of `house rule it' as Games Workshop's line. Out of all the places in the world where people play, what percentage actually takes this advice? You cannot in tournaments. You generally cannot in stores or clubs. Even most casual gaming groups seem to be pretty conservative around house ruling things. No matter how much they like to tout that line, it makes not one iota of difference. They really need to wake up and realise that the community they are speaking to is not the community in their imaginations.

This is a generalization, but they write their games based on the way they like to experience them. I bet the a lot of the criticism makes them pound their heads against the wall and say "WOULD YOU PLEASE JUST ADJUST THE RULES HOWEVER YOU SEE FIT?!?"

Of course, for everyone one of them doing that, there's X number of gamers pounding their heads against walls saying "WHY DO YOU KEEP WRITING THINGS SO LOOSELY...THAT'S NOT HOW WE PLAY!!!"

There are different world views at work here. Some gamers do ascribe to the studio's philosophy. Many others don't. And here's where my aggravation comes in.

The reason many gamers are anal-retentive about tightness and officiality is because GW helped create those attitudes. Older historical wargamers aren't hung up on what brand of models you use, they monkey with rulesets all the time, and tournament play isn't a big deal to them -- they're more about scenarios and narratives. It's GW that's pushed notions of GW models only. It's GW that introduced the "codex" format for official army lists. It's GW that created the GT and RTT scene. It's GW that pushed in-store demos and pickup games instead of basement gaming. And as it's been well-documented, now you're seeing historicals systems like FoW emulate GW's business approach.

I agree that the personal attacks against Gav are silly and out of line. But I'd have no problem telling him to his face that it's hypocritical to design based around one mindset, then market and sell the game with a completely different mindset. I've done rants about this before and this inherent hypocrisy is the one thing that really gets my back up re: GW.

Elessar wrote: Fluff isn't the same as rules - If I make something up, say a story that details an Order of Sisters being corrupted by Slaanesh, that has as much authority in fluff as someone who says it's impossible. Or a story detailing how Sebastian Thor was actually a Tyranid Vanguard Organism. The whole point is that the fluff is telling a story, I can do whatever the hell I want, and so can GW. Especially since it's THEIR fluff, you have no more right to it than anyone, and less than them. They can and will change anything they feel like changing - if you don't like it, tough.

I got class in an hour but I'll give this a shot.

Horus and the Emperor were actually the same person that used an extremely advanced Dark Age teleporter to appear as two different people. Now this teleporter was so advanced that it projected two versions of the Emperor, one from the past and one from present time. Horus was the past Emperor. When Emperor killed Horus he actually killed his past self which is why he sits in on the Golden Throne, which is an anti-paradox machine which keeps the fabric of reality together by keeping the Emperor in existence. However as a side effect it caused the Space Marine legions to go insane and caused the Horus Heresy because of the temporal effects reverberating into the past. Whenever something changes in the universe like Sensei or Malal disappearing it's the anti-paradox machine rewriting history to keep the Emperor alive. Cypher bears the keycode to the machine and is trying to reach the Throne so he can unwrite himself completely from history because he is the Emperor from the future, the reason he seeks to do this is because he wants to prevent Abaddon, who is the Emperor from the near future, from destroying the universe. But he must do this before he is erased from history, as he is being right now.

Elessar wrote: Nonsense. Fluff isn't the same as rules

That doesn't mean that they are mutually exclusive. It's like saying that there's no need for unit X to have a model because rules are not the same as miniatures.
And ultimately there is very little "need" for anything in the game as long as we're able to move chunks of plastic over a table - but that wouldn't be very exciting, would it? So why not mesh things a little?

Elessar wrote:The whole point is that the fluff is telling a story, I can do whatever the hell I want, and so can GW.

It is these stories that add considerably to an armies' appeal. Why would someone who likes Word Bearers stories (such as Dark Apostle/Disciple) take a generic Chaos Lord if he was offered a Dark Apostle entry? Why assume that someone who enjoys Alpha Legion fluff wouldn't want an option for allied cultists?

Elessar wrote:Especially since it's THEIR fluff, you have no more right to it than anyone, and less than them. They can and will change anything they feel like changing - if you don't like it, tough.

So when did the Alpha Legion stop using human agents? When did the Word Bearers stop being led Dark Apostles? When did the Iron warriors stop being siege masters?
This isn't about fluff having been changed, it is about rules not doing it any justice for absolutely no good reason.

The previous Codex may have been in need of streamlining and balancing, but that doesn't excuse the removal of so many options.

Definitely awesome that Gav Thrope responded to the seemingly onslaught of negative attention the Chaos dex has received over the interwebs although imo the large outcry against GW is overblown and overly emotional/irrational than anything else. Podcasters and other internet users seem to like this 'dex as well; and I really don't value HBMC's questionable posts since he's got a record of trying to put down people even though he's in the wrong in the first place (me being such a person before) - and he doesn't have the balls or common decency to say that he's wrong.

Not to mention whenever he's shared his guard dex thoughts its just nitpicking; just because he posts the most on Dakka doesn't mean he has THE opinion to hold. Just saying.

I smell a lock.

/puts marshmallows on sticks and settles into a deckchair to wait...

mmm, smores....

Smores are EXTRA heretical! To defile a perfectly good marshmallow... you sicken me to the core. To the core.