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skyth wrote:Replace World Bearers with Black Legion with thier love for Terminators. Possible under 3.5, not possible under 4th.

I'd galdly trade the ability ot field daemons of all 4 gods for the ability to field cult troops of all four gods in my black legion list (which I do).

Alpha Legion...I used 8 man Troops squads with either a special and a heavy or two specials. I would have to buy new models to make them legal squads.

I also had no HQ's remaining, as I modeled mine with daemonic speed, which doesn't exist any more.
Hard to field an army with no Troop or HQ selections.

Not to mention the models that I couldn't use (My Cultists, the 10 models I had modeled to have Daemonic Speed) and the utter lack of Icons in my army.

8 man squads not being able to take two heavy/specials is standard across all marine codexes now, of course. Do you have a problem with it in the vanilla SM codex? In any case, you could combine squads, then take out the excess special weapons and form a Chosen squad with them.

I humbly suggest that your Centaur-guy could be used as a lord on a bike. A minor bit of counts as perhaps, but not an unreasonable one. I've also heard of people using cultists as summoned lesser daemons (representing the cultists emerging from hiding when ordered by a nearby marine)

Again, strawman. That is not removing options and the complaint would not characterize that as removing options. The complaint, in that case, is of removing speciality.

I shall address that complaint then. The ability to specialise has not been removed at all.

When, where, and out of how many Chaos players And how many people with other codexes lost points due to invalid lists. Not to mention which tournaments? And how many of these were honest mistakes as opposed to intentional?

This is information taken directly from Gav Thorpe's blog. I’ll reiterate my point that with both GW-organised and independent tournaments, by far the most army list mistakes (often costing the payer concerned valuable tournament points) occured with the old Codex far more than any other book around at the same time – including Witch Hunters, Craftworld Eldar and other complex multi-volume armies.

Daemonbombs had multiple forms, not just a single guy on a bike. It could be Terminator-delivered, Siren -delivered, Bike delivered via squads, etc. Not to mention that not all Tournaments used Alpha level (The UKGT certainly didn't) and not all used Escalation. Oh, and the Iron Warriors lists auto-loses against Siren Prince or all-infiltrating lists or Daemonbombs that win the roll-off for first turn.

I'm not so sure Iron Warriors auto-lost against those lists. In fact Iron Warriors would probably be one of the better choices to blow icons off the table against a daemon bomb. In any case, I am using "auto-lose" only in the most literal sense, that the daemonbomb loses as they cannot move a model onto the table, with no dice rolled.

I don't like them either. It is a horrible game-design mechanic. Though some of them can be done without a special character (All bike armies, for instance or 10th company lists)

Well, I guess that's personal preference. I've allways liked special charcters. I suppose you can be thankful that the new Chaos codex is less dependant on them than other current codexes.

It's funny. You trumpet the ability of the new Chaos codex to have all 4 gods represented in marine form, but encounter problems when you try to do something similar with a Loyalist force. Rather ironic.

I don't see any irony here (unless it's alanis moriset style irony). The arguments given against me using vanilla marine rules to represent Dark ANgels are along the lines of "There is a Dark Angels book. Use it.". I certainly think that vanilla marine codex would represent Dark Angels adequately, myself.

Regardless, the sportsmanship level of the people you play with has no bearing at all on the Chaos codex.

That's why it was an aside, rather than one of the bullet points..

Neil wrote:Cite specific examples please. The only thing which didn't translate over in my wife's thousand sons army was the Thrall Wizards, until she figured out she could use them as lesser demons (they were modelled as skeletons).

Noise Marines might need a modicum of counts as (although putting noise weapons on vehicles was allways a terrible option).

3: GW says different. They remove options to remove restrictions, or add restrictions to remove options.

What options have really been removed, though?
Basilisks, sonic weapons, and the variety of daemons. Alpha legion cultists? Anything else?

Any weapon upgrades (Fists, Plasma Pistols, etc) on Tzeentch Sorcerers, Daemonic speed, thrall wizards (That you can 'counts-as' is not a defence), Kai Guns, Chosen on bikes with multiple weapon upgrades, Lightning claws on an AC other than a Raptor.

And this is just models that can't be used any more. This says nothing for the army not being able to play the same or feel the same after the new codex.

Then there's the 'you must buy more models to use this army' list - Basically, any marked unit that you didn't have an icon for plus any CSM squad of less than 10 members.


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Neil wrote:

skyth wrote:Replace World Bearers with Black Legion with thier love for Terminators. Possible under 3.5, not possible under 4th.

I'd galdly trade the ability ot field daemons of all 4 gods for the ability to field cult troops of all four gods in my black legion list (which I do).

Strawman...You made the argument that a 'fluffy' list (Which I don't consider a 'fluffy' list as if you have two sets of ancient enemies, even a strong leader wouldn't be able to keep one of the sets from killing the other long enough to strike at another enemy...Three different gods would be doable, though difficult...Only have to police one possible fight) was not makeable with the old codex, but is with the new. My argument is that the opposite is true.

Alpha Legion...I used 8 man Troops squads with either a special and a heavy or two specials. I would have to buy new models to make them legal squads.

I also had no HQ's remaining, as I modeled mine with daemonic speed, which doesn't exist any more.
Hard to field an army with no Troop or HQ selections.

Not to mention the models that I couldn't use (My Cultists, the 10 models I had modeled to have Daemonic Speed) and the utter lack of Icons in my army.

8 man squads not being able to take two heavy/specials is standard across all marine codexes now, of course. Do you have a problem with it in the vanilla SM codex? In any case, you could combine squads, then take out the excess special weapons and form a Chosen squad with them.

I humbly suggest that your Centaur-guy could be used as a lord on a bike. A minor bit of counts as perhaps, but not an unreasonable one. I've also heard of people using cultists as summoned lesser daemons (representing the cultists emerging from hiding when ordered by a nearby marine)

First off, I differentiate my squads so I cannot combine them. And no, I don't care for it in the other Marine Codexes either. At least in the fluff, the Marine codexes had it as a standard, whereas Chaos did not (And funny thing is, they sold CSM in boxes of 8).

Second, use counts-as is a lame argument. I shouldn't have to use 'counts-as' to have a legal army. It obviously isn't a bike, and looking at the model, it doesn't 'feel' like a bike. Cultists have guns...Lessr Daemons can't shoot. Not a very good 'counts-as' there either.

When, where, and out of how many Chaos players And how many people with other codexes lost points due to invalid lists. Not to mention which tournaments? And how many of these were honest mistakes as opposed to intentional?

This is information taken directly from Gav Thorpe's blog. I’ll reiterate my point that with both GW-organised and independent tournaments, by far the most army list mistakes (often costing the payer concerned valuable tournament points) occured with the old Codex far more than any other book around at the same time – including Witch Hunters, Craftworld Eldar and other complex multi-volume armies.

Ahh... yeah. Looks like I've been ninja'd.

What Skyth said.

Fateweaver wrote:Oh yeah, I also had 12 Khornate Juggers I had to sell from 3rd to 3.5 as they ceased to be a unit so I'm sorry if I don't sympathize with people who LOST Cult Terminators but can at least field the frakking models because they are, after all, terminators and model wise still usable (even if one has to use counts as for sonic weapons).

Then feel sorry for the LatD players who lost their army.

skyth wrote:Any weapon upgrades (Fists, Plasma Pistols, etc) on Tzeentch Sorcerers, Daemonic speed, thrall wizards (That you can 'counts-as' is not a defence), Kai Guns, Chosen on bikes with multiple weapon upgrades, Lightning claws on an AC other than a Raptor.

And this is just models that can't be used any more. This says nothing for the army not being able to play the same or feel the same after the new codex.

Then there's the 'you must buy more models to use this army' list - Basically, any marked unit that you didn't have an icon for plus any CSM squad of less than 10 members.

Therere's allways going to be some changes between codexes, that's unavoidable. You're allways going to have to buy more models when a new codex is released, that's not unique to the new chaos codex.

Tzeentch sorcerors with wargear can be used as Aspiring Champions in squads with IoT. (such as a chosen squad in the case of my wife's army).
Daemonic Speed didn't have a consistent way to be modelled. Most of them could either become bikes, jump packs, or a mount.
Thrall Wizards never had any suggested models in the first place and are an example of the sort of unit that never should have existed in the first place. (tehre was way too much bloat in the 3.5 codex).
Kai Guns again had no consisdent way to model them, and were a fairly bad option anyhow. You can still use combi-bolters.

skyth wrote:Strawman...You made the argument that a 'fluffy' list (Which I don't consider a 'fluffy' list as if you have two sets of ancient enemies, even a strong leader wouldn't be able to keep one of the sets from killing the other long enough to strike at another enemy...Three different gods would be doable, though difficult...Only have to police one possible fight) was not makeable with the old codex, but is with the new. My argument is that the opposite is true.

Strawman.. you keep using that word.. I do not think it means, what you think it means.

Troops of four gods under one black legion leader is completely fluffy.

Hi, I'm Abbaddon. You may remember me from such wars as the 13th black crusade, and the.. other 12.

Second, use counts-as is a lame argument. I shouldn't have to use 'counts-as' to have a legal army. It obviously isn't a bike, and looking at the model, it doesn't 'feel' like a bike. Cultists have guns...Lessr Daemons can't shoot. Not a very good 'counts-as' there either.

Cultists never should have been in the codex in the way they were (IE, as a footnote in alpha legion). They were a symptom of the bload in hte old codex.

Unsupported by any facts, mind you. Just an assertion without proof.

It's an assertation by the game designer who wrote the codex using the feedback provided to games workshop. He's allowed to make those "assertations"!

Funny, how the lists I mentioned were often the ones people whined about and were refered to as 'broken'. They are all extremely strong lists, so you had a variety of Tourney lists that showed up that played a variety of ways, unlike with the current Chaos Codex.

Eh, people will whinge about all sorts of things. So the new codex isn't broken enough? Only one broken build? that's the problem now? (I still think there's more than one good build and that lash isn't essential to all builds. Also that if fluff is your main concern, the pwoer of the build shouldn't be too important..)

Still it is similar. You don't like the way your army works in the new codex, but people think of you as a whiner/etc for wanting different rules.

Well, I never played Dark Angels in a previous codex, I started my army when the new codex came out.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There... are... four... lights!!!!!!!!!

That sums up my feelings about much of this thread.

Elessar wrote:Has it occurred to anyone that they actually have a schedule for new releases, so, even if you all email on the same day asking for Legions, and a million others do so too (okay, maybe not a million) it'd STILL be 5 years?!?! GW is a business, remember. They plan things that far and further ahead, because to a Company that's the near future.

And honestly, I could live with that if they would fething tell us something more than their stupid 3 month window. I mean, how old is CSM 4.0 now? And we haven't heard anything when or if there will be a legion book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Neil wrote:- If you want a character leading your force with the same special rules as your troops, look up "Typhus", "Kharn", "Ahriman" and "Lucius".

I don't think that's quite what the CSM 3.5 crowd is arguing for. As I understand things, they'd prefer it such that all Cult Marines are Elites, unless the Special Character of the appropriate Mark is taken.

IOW, if CSM followed the current SM Codex template that everybody knows and loves:
- Khorne Berzerkers are normally Elites
- If you take a HQ with MoCU, then Berzerkers become Scoring
- If you take a HQ with MoK, then Berzerkers become Scoring, but neither Noise Marines nor Havocs may be taken
- If you take a Kharn the Betrayer, then Berzerkers become Troops, non-MoK units may not be taken, and all units gain Rage
... something like that.

Yes, that sounds pretty good actually.

Neil wrote:

skyth wrote:
Well, good for you. I couldn't, I needed army builder. The book was a complete mess and regularly cost players tournament points due to invalid lists.

That is....kinda true. It was indeed overly complicated.

Noise Marines might need a modicum of counts as (although putting noise weapons on vehicles was allways a terrible option).

But a fluffy one nonetheless.

What options have really been removed, though?
Basilisks, sonic weapons, and the variety of daemons. Alpha legion cultists? Anything else?

Cult Terminators, Cult Bikes, Cult chosen, Cult generals...



To be honest, somehow I can't imagine how a single Legion book would look like. Plague Terminators, Plague Havocs, GUO, plague beares, nurglings and the same thing for every god and then add the god-less legions like Night Lords. That book would be way too full and restrictive to work right.

Neil wrote:

skyth wrote:Any weapon upgrades (Fists, Plasma Pistols, etc) on Tzeentch Sorcerers, Daemonic speed, thrall wizards (That you can 'counts-as' is not a defence), Kai Guns, Chosen on bikes with multiple weapon upgrades, Lightning claws on an AC other than a Raptor.

And this is just models that can't be used any more. This says nothing for the army not being able to play the same or feel the same after the new codex.

Then there's the 'you must buy more models to use this army' list - Basically, any marked unit that you didn't have an icon for plus any CSM squad of less than 10 members.

Therere's allways going to be some changes between codexes, that's unavoidable. You're allways going to have to buy more models when a new codex is released, that's not unique to the new chaos codex.

I didn't have to when we went from 3rd edition C:SM to the 4th edition one. Regardless, making people buy new models is GW's goal so I'm sure they change the codexes with that in mind. That doesn't make it right.

Tzeentch sorcerors with wargear can be used as Aspiring Champions in squads with IoT. (such as a chosen squad in the case of my wife's army).

And if you didn't have any icons in your army? If all the infantry you had were Thousnad Sons models? Those models are now useless.

Daemonic Speed didn't have a consistent way to be modelled. Most of them could either become bikes, jump packs, or a mount.

Even if I could count as mounts for two of my guys, I have 8 more that are now unusable. Again, use 'counts-as' is a lame argument.

Kai Guns again had no consisdent way to model them, and were a fairly bad option anyhow. You can still use combi-bolters.

They were supposed to be over-sized bolters (I thought about doing one as a modified heavy bolter). Most would only have one barrel. Combi's have two.

Troops of four gods under one black legion leader is completely fluffy.

Hi, I'm Abbaddon. You may remember me from such wars as the 13th black crusade, and the.. other 12.

And where in the fluff specifically does it mention a battle that has all 4 cult troops in a detachment that he is leading?

Oh, and btw...You could have a Black Legion army with all four cult troops represented in the 3.5 codex. Just use the multiple detachment rule.

Second, use counts-as is a lame argument. I shouldn't have to use 'counts-as' to have a legal army. It obviously isn't a bike, and looking at the model, it doesn't 'feel' like a bike. Cultists have guns...Lessr Daemons can't shoot. Not a very good 'counts-as' there either.

Cultists never should have been in the codex in the way they were (IE, as a footnote in alpha legion). They were a symptom of the bload in hte old codex.

Nice. So I never should have gotten models for a unit that was in my codex. Lame argument.

Unsupported by any facts, mind you. Just an assertion without proof.

It's an assertation by the game designer who wrote the codex using the feedback provided to games workshop. He's allowed to make those "assertations"!

Not without proof he isn't. I don't trust any information coming out of Games Workshop, thank you very much. They also claimed that all your armies would be useable in 4th edition...Funny how my Chaos army wasn't once the new Codex came around.

Funny, how the lists I mentioned were often the ones people whined about and were refered to as 'broken'. They are all extremely strong lists, so you had a variety of Tourney lists that showed up that played a variety of ways, unlike with the current Chaos Codex.

Eh, people will whinge about all sorts of things. So the new codex isn't broken enough? Only one broken build? that's the problem now? (I still think there's more than one good build and that lash isn't essential to all builds. Also that if fluff is your main concern, the pwoer of the build shouldn't be too important..)

I love how your argument shifts...You're the person that claimed that there was only one viable tournament build in the old codex. I'm just saying that at the top level of competition, there was more of a variety of lists used in the old codex, unlike now. Since I disproved your point, you switch over to saying that that isn't important, and imply that anyone who considers it important is a bad person.

Still it is similar. You don't like the way your army works in the new codex, but people think of you as a whiner/etc for wanting different rules.

Well, I never played Dark Angels in a previous codex, I started my army when the new codex came out.

It is still similar. You don't like how your codex works, but there is one that you would perfer to use that would be appropriate to your army but can't.


I do think the most telling evidence that there is a major problem with the current Chaos Codex is that the complaining has about it has been going on for as long as it has. That tells you that there is serious discontent among the player base, which means that GW screwed up with the Codex.

You can argue opinions all day, but let's keep in mind that nearly everybody that loves the new codex simply does so because they didn't lose an army they enjoyed, and can now build armies they do enjoy. The opposite is true of the haters.

It doesn't change the fact that units and options were lost (they were, even if a few more were gained), and when you look at other changes like Eldar, Ork, and IG far fewer options and builds were lost.

There are more upset Chaos players than there are Ork, SM, and IG players combined, and that's not the result of demographics: the chaos switch was handled worse than the others.

You can argue all day about the extent of the problems, but there clearly were problems. Is it a bad codex? It's good for what it tries to do, but it's problems are many.


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As for the length and nature of this debate, I think the fault lies with the codex defenders. yes, the relentless whining can get a bit much, but at the end of the day the people complaining are people that lost something. Maybe it's petty, maybe it's small, but they still lost something. I can understand why they complain.

What I don't get is what's in it for the guys that seem convinved it's their job to show us that the codex is awesome, and we're just whiners, and it wasn't that bad. If you know anything about conflict resolution, the key is to find common ground. CAlling the concerns of another person minor and stupid is a good way to raise all kinds of defenses.

If every response from a person that loves the new codex was some variant on "while I really enjoy the new book, it has some problems that really were unfair to some other gamers, and could have been handled better," the complaints would die down because why keep beating a dead horse?

Polonius wrote:You can argue opinions all day, but let's keep in mind that nearly everybody that loves the new codex simply does so because they didn't lose an army they enjoyed, and can now build armies they do enjoy. The opposite is true of the haters.

Not so!

I hate the 3.5 Codex because I lost my all-Veteran 3.0 Codex army.

If I have to lose my 3.0 Codex army, they can lose their 3.5 armies.

Polonius wrote:
As for the length and nature of this debate, I think the fault lies with the codex defenders. yes, the relentless whining can get a bit much, but at the end of the day the people complaining are people that lost something. Maybe it's petty, maybe it's small, but they still lost something. I can understand why they complain.

What I don't get is what's in it for the guys that seem convinved it's their job to show us that the codex is awesome, and we're just whiners, and it wasn't that bad. If you know anything about conflict resolution, the key is to find common ground. CAlling the concerns of another person minor and stupid is a good way to raise all kinds of defenses.

If every response from a person that loves the new codex was some variant on "while I really enjoy the new book, it has some problems that really were unfair to some other gamers, and could have been handled better," the complaints would die down because why keep beating a dead horse?

Especially the bit in bold, QFFT.
It's basically the same whenever a grievance is raised on the forum.

Everything Skyth said: QFT!

Polonius: Well said.

Polonius wrote:If every response from a person that loves the new codex was some variant on "while I really enjoy the new book, it has some problems that really were unfair to some other gamers, and could have been handled better," the complaints would die down because why keep beating a dead horse? [/b]

That would require a capacity to diverge from the tunnel vision that the typical GW appologist suffers from.

Is it really such a huge stretch to imagine what it would be like if all Marine sub-dexes were gone and all the chapters were covered by a Codex Marines? That's essentially what happened to Chaos. Regardless of powerlevels, this is a lot of lost options. I'm sure if Space Wolves were reduced to taking Cantor and Sternguard as "counts as grey hunters", Blood Angels taking Vanguard as "counts as jump pack death company", Black Templars had to take rhino borne assault squads as "counts as Sword Brethern" and Bike armies became "counts as Ravenwing" we'd never hear the end of it.

Of course, YMMV.

keezus wrote:

Polonius wrote:If every response from a person that loves the new codex was some variant on "while I really enjoy the new book, it has some problems that really were unfair to some other gamers, and could have been handled better," the complaints would die down because why keep beating a dead horse? [/b]

That would require a capacity to diverge from the tunnel vision that the typical GW appologist suffers from.

Is it really such a huge stretch to imagine what it would be like if all Marine sub-dexes were gone and all the chapters were covered by a Codex Marines? That's essentially what happened to Chaos. Regardless of powerlevels, this is a lot of lost options. I'm sure if Space Wolves were reduced to taking Cantor and Sternguard as "counts as grey hunters", Blood Angels taking Vanguard as "counts as jump pack death company", Black Templars had to take rhino borne assault squads as "counts as Sword Brethern" and Bike armies became "counts as Ravenwing" we'd never hear the end of it.

Of course, YMMV.

Didnt think about it this way, but this is a really good way to compare it.

Make a new Space Marine Codex.... kinda like the last one... Have it cover each chapter in 1 page of text... then have your generic SM Build options... and thats it. Every Chapter (BT, BA, SW ect) looses all chapter specific Rules, Units, Wargear and upgrades. You then loose some rules and units that have been around since Vs 1.0 of your dex for no good reason... lets say ATSKNF and Terminators.

How would all the space marine players feel?

jp400 wrote:You then loose some rules and units that have been around since Vs 1.0 of your dex for no good reason... lets say ATSKNF and Terminators.

Nah... They'd never loose ATSKNF and Terminators - but they'd add some new wrinkle, like how Veteran Sgts (upgrades again), can buy an ability that confers veteran skills to the squad. They loose said veteran skill if that dude dies... The "YAY GW" crowd would jump all over this about how you can give your Tactical Squads "Furious Charge" to rep uh... Space Wolves, Blood Angels -and- Black Templars, or uh... "Stubborn", to rep Imperial Fists and Dark Angels, or "Fleet of Foot" to rep White Scars and "Infiltrate" to rep Raven Guard.

They'd claim it to be a perfect representation of the fluff, and the ultimate in flexibilty... when in reality, it is just the same old squads of 10 dudes with different abilities.

It'd be so AWESOME....

(but really, it wouldn't!)

keezus wrote:Is it really such a huge stretch to imagine what it would be like if all Marine sub-dexes were gone and all the chapters were covered by a Codex Marines?

You mean, like in 2nd Edition? Or the vast bulk of 3rd?

Because, it's not like GW took away Cult Marines and said: Berzerkers? Nah, just use MoK. If there is a Berzerker entry, then there can be a Death Company one. And it's not like Chaos didn't gain Obliterators and Defilers that simply didn't exist before.

I am closing this as it continues to be flamey and I am going to have to start dropping official warnings presently if continued. Please contact Yakface or the other mods if you wish to re-open. HBMC you are free to re-post with your reply if you receive one.