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Not so much the point matey! It's more about sending a sane, rational E-mail that they can show to the decision makers.

If people just complain behind their backs, nothing is ever achieved. But hey, you might get a reply stating that they are in the works, planned to join the works, or not coming.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'm not saying you have to play by the old book, but I am suggesting it as another option open to you.

Now. One. Last. Time.

When the current book was written, the plan was to follow it up with future volumes about the specific Legions yes? This plan may have changed, nobody seems to know for sure.

As such, the CSM book isn't geared for said Legions. Thus, I really do reccomend picking up your old book, dusting it down, and using it on account that it was the last time a Night Lords list was printed, yes? Makes sense? Or are you really just looking to troll and pick a fight? Believe it or not, I am actually AGREEING with you about the lack of representation of certain Legions in the current book. But rather than just pissing and whinging anonymously online, I'm pointing out the authors explanation as to why, and trying to be constuctive in the meantime.

While I can understand where your coming from here ,it's still a figuritive kick in the pants from GW.
Sure,I can use the old codex for home games with friends,but I'm not going to have much luck doing that in a pick up game at the FLGS, or showing up at a tourney with a copy of 3.5 under my arm.
So basicly,until GW releases a "codex: Chaos Legions" or several codices covering the legions,you have alot of Chaos players with armies they can't fully enjoy,armies we have spent a great deal of time and money on,so once again,as with sqauts and LaTD..regaurdless of intent,it appears GW has dropped the ball...at least for the time bieng.

Oh, this is fun. See where lame excuses get us? Why couldn't Thorpe have given us a formal apology instead? I'd have respected him a lot more than for trying to justify a book that severely disappointed 90% (guestimated) of its audience.
For that matter, an apology would be nice from Alessio and Jervis too. Along with a promise to fix this mess in the near future. But that's not likely. The most we can hope for is a Standard Bearer article where Jervis spends three pages trying to convince us that codex chaos 4th edition is actually really cool because his five year old likes it.

endless wrote:One, last, time. What Night Lord model can't you use now that you could use before?

*opens 3.5 codex*

- Flying Demons (they are now generic)

- more then the usual amount of fast attack units

Also, they had the following special rules:
- Use cover
- nightvision

They were also the only amry in 3rd edition which allowed you to use more than one squad of raptors. They were more expensive back then but had 2 more special rules.

How many Raptors units can you use in your amry now? How are the others models?
What is on the shelf?

A generic spikey Marine army with silly helmets and too much fast attack which sits on the shelf because it has lost its character.

endless wrote:How many Raptors units can you use in your amry now? How are the others models?
What is on the shelf?

Well,can't speak for a Night Lords army,but I personaly have a GUO that is now just a "greater daemon" and a horde of Plaugebearers & Nurglings that are "lesser daemons",as well as Plauge terminators who now have "mon".

olympia wrote:When CSM players complain about a lack of viable builds, they are, as johnhwang points out, complaining about a lack of multiple powerbuilds.

You're still pumping points into the "Logical Fallacy Skill Tree" Olympia. That skill tree becomes utterly worthless at cLvl19 (at the latest), and most posters above cLvl12 have loads of resistances and buffs that make the attacks in there just a waste of mana. I can see you tried to mix it up, casting a few 'False Comparisons' in your last few posts, but you haven't got enough points in that skill to really trip anyone up. And this whole strawman attack - which you tried to chain with a buff from JohnHwangDD - just doesn't work.

My suggestion is you grind the YMDC forum for a few hours - maybe even start a thread or two and get your own instances going - and get couple of extra levels, split the points you gain between the 'Reading Comprehension' and 'Logic' skill trees, then come back into this server and try again.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It does if someone has clearly spent a lot of time and effort to create their army a certain way matey. And as I said, Competitive Environments are an exception. Does this mean other books in dire need of an update, due to being horrendously out of date (Necron and Dark Eldar perhaps?) should be refused because their book isn't up to date?

Though equally, if you want to field your Specific Legion against me, you have to use the previous book and nothing but the previous book. No just using the organisation and enjoying new points and toys!

About the statement about stuff being justTraitor Marines[/i]. That was someone being called out on a stupid statement. A CSM player making said stupid statement.

I think you will find that most friendly, casual players would not want to play against an outdated codex. The old CSM book is outdated. The necrons and DE are out of date. There is a difference. One is made obsolete by its replacement, the other have no replacement.

Do you deny that SM players raging against CSM players wanting rules for different army lists often go back to the "they're just chaos marines" argument? Hah.

Then loyalists also get BT, BA, DA, and SW.

Piss off ph34r
us BA players get an online dex, with some new choices, and all standard units pushed up in price with even more limitations XD


to be honest here, if im playing a friendly match (or even competetive) and im against a decent looking army that someone has put alot of time into, only to get it nerfed by the new chaos dex, i'd let them run the old chaos dex.

If the plan was to release a legions book after the CSM dex, shouldnt they have had a failsafe incase of it taking years? (like this seems to be)
Even a little PDF like the BA list would be nice for people.

JD21290 wrote:

Then loyalists also get BT, BA, DA, and SW.

Piss off ph34r
us BA players get an online dex, with some new choices, and all standard units pushed up in price with even more limitations XD


to be honest here, if im playing a friendly match (or even competetive) and im against a decent looking army that someone has put alot of time into, only to get it nerfed by the new chaos dex, i'd let them run the old chaos dex.

If the plan was to release a legions book after the CSM dex, shouldnt they have had a failsafe incase of it taking years? (like this seems to be)
Even a little PDF like the BA list would be nice for people.

Well, rumors suggest that BA players will get a full blown codex in the next couple years. And a pdf is better than nothing at all.

Ill keep the PDF, they can keep thier "new BA dex"
Chances are they will do something stupid like remove mephiston, make assault squads fast attack, remove assault vets.

about the only things i could want are:

Give dante and mephiston eternal warrior they are both over 220 fething points and dont have it lol.

Drop some point here and there, nearly everything is 10-30 points more than basic marines, with less effective rules or less options.

JD21290 wrote:Ill keep the PDF, they can keep thier "new BA dex"
Chances are they will do something stupid like remove mephiston, make assault squads fast attack, remove assault vets.

about the only things i could want are:

Give dante and mephiston eternal warrior they are both over 220 fething points and dont have it lol.

Drop some point here and there, nearly everything is 10-30 points more than basic marines, with less effective rules or less options.

Bollocks, you will certainly get a new BA character riding a grotesquely oversized EMO/LoLcat hybrid and a new BA character that, if reduced to 0 wounds, goes on a self harm spree and detonates in a 2D6 radius of gakky poems and rotating asymmetrical fringe flailing.

olympia wrote:This thread is remarkable for the sense of entitlement shown by the most vociferous CSM players. You never hear the poor Tau players whinge as much as this about having a piss poor codex.

Actually I have. Just because you dont hear it here doesnt mean it doesnt happen. DE and Tyranid players have been complaining too, for different reasons...

Has it occurred to anyone that they actually have a schedule for new releases, so, even if you all email on the same day asking for Legions, and a million others do so too (okay, maybe not a million) it'd STILL be 5 years?!?! GW is a business, remember. They plan things that far and further ahead, because to a Company that's the near future.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

olympia wrote:When CSM players complain about a lack of viable builds, they are, as johnhwang points out, complaining about a lack of multiple powerbuilds.

You're still pumping points into the "Logical Fallacy Skill Tree" Olympia. That skill tree becomes utterly worthless at cLvl19 (at the latest), and most posters above cLvl12 have loads of resistances and buffs that make the attacks in there just a waste of mana. I can see you tried to mix it up, casting a few 'False Comparisons' in your last few posts, but you haven't got enough points in that skill to really trip anyone up. And this whole strawman attack - which you tried to chain with a buff from JohnHwangDD - just doesn't work.

My suggestion is you grind the YMDC forum for a few hours - maybe even start a thread or two and get your own instances going - and get couple of extra levels, split the points you gain between the 'Reading Comprehension' and 'Logic' skill trees, then come back into this server and try again.

Rofl!

This and the last one are the best things ive read in a long time online!

+500 Exp From QFT!

Nurglitch wrote:skyth:

And I wonder why that is? Surely with the sheer mass of Chaos Space Marine players crying out for the 3.5 codex, one could easily find someone willing to play against it.

I would be willing to play against 3.5 Chaos any day of the week, provided that I'm allowed to field a Craftworld Eldar (Biel Tan) army list.

That means Aspects such as Dark Reapers (and Warp Spiders) as Scoring Troops, along with Fearless A3 Wraithlords without Wraithsight restrictions, and Heavy 3 Starcannon.

I have years of experience taking MEQ armies apart with my optimized Biel Tan, and it has NEVER lost a game against Chaos 3.5. So if someone's in my neck of the woods when I've got time for a game, just let me know, and I'll see if I can't table the CSM within 6 turns...

endless wrote:

To be honest I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that prior to the new codex, you couldn't use your same models? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that's what I'm seeing.

No, you're not reading wrong. My E.C. are just that, Emperor's Children Marines. They Are Not Noise Marines. Noise Marines Are A Joke Made Up By D.Rok.

Now I can quite easily use the same models I had, or, as I am doing, remake my models as a heresy era force without the stupidity. Yay!


(i agree about the mark on daemons but sshh I'm huntin' wabbbits)

Ah, okay, gotcha. Though in that case I wonder if just using the normal Spess Mehreens codex would be better, as I could imagine that the EC marines would fit better there.
But then again I'm not too knowledgeable on Emperor's Children, only on how to beat them. ; )

@ Grotsnik-

I hope your favorite codex gets Jervis'd beyond all comparison (see HBMC's sig if you haven't blocked him) and that you lose all of your favorite units.

But it's okay. They've planned to make a new codex that includes all your favorite stuff.
---

I bet that Gav Thorpe is thinking, "Phew, fooled them with saying that we made this codex suck because we're making Legions codices! Suckers!"

jp400 wrote:This and the last one are the best things ive read in a long time online!

I'm worried that if I extend the metaphor any futher I'll draw too much aggro from the Mods, and they have a higher DPP (damage per post) ratio than I do. If that happens I'll have to go to the Personal Message skill tree to try and get myself out of danger, but that has been known to miscast from time to time. And it's recharge rate is horrible - you can usually only use it once per mod per week.

Too much hate in this thread, not enough love.

I love the current Chaos codex. I hated the old one.

- I can build fluffy armies with the current codex that I couldn't with the 3.5 codex. (For example, a four god Black Leigon list).
- Most 3.5E armies translate over directly.
- Removing restrictions is not the same as removing options.
- I can write an army list easily with just pen and paper.
- Let's not kid ourselves pretending that the old dex had more "tournament viable" builds. It was iron warriors or bust.
- If you want a character leading your force with the same special rules as your troops, look up "Typhus", "Kharn", "Ahriman" and "Lucius".

On a side note, I'm a Dark Angels player. I would absolutely love for there to be no Dark Angels codex. Then I could use my green space marines in dresses with the Space Marine codex without arguments.

Neil wrote:Too much hate in this thread, not enough love.

I love the current Chaos codex. I hated the old one.

- I can build fluffy armies with the current codex that I couldn't with the 3.5 codex. (For example, a four god Black Leigon list).

And you can't build fluffy armies in the new 'dex like you could with the old 'dex. (For example, a World Bearers planetary invasion spearhead with Terminators teleporting in supported by Daemons of all four gods)

- Most 3.5E armies translate over directly.

Mine wasn't legal after the new 'dex came out.

- Removing restrictions is not the same as removing options.

Strawman. No one has equated them as equal

- I can write an army list easily with just pen and paper.

Funny, I could do that with the 3.5 codex, and often did.

- Let's not kid ourselves pretending that the old dex had more "tournament viable" builds. It was iron warriors or bust.

Siren Prince, Daemonbomb, All infiltrating list w/first turn charge

- If you want a character leading your force with the same special rules as your troops, look up "Typhus", "Kharn", "Ahriman" and "Lucius".

Sorry, offering a 'special character' is not the same. Any HQ of a given legion would have the same special rules as thier troops. If you have to use counts-as, it's funny that every leader for the legions has the exact same equipment, etc...There are no power-armored Plague Marine Lords, there are no Sorcerer Noice marines? Sorry, don't buy it.

On a side note, I'm a Dark Angels player. I would absolutely love for there to be no Dark Angels codex. Then I could use my green space marines in dresses with the Space Marine codex without arguments.

And you CAN use the codex marine rules for them if you wish.

Neil wrote:- If you want a character leading your force with the same special rules as your troops, look up "Typhus", "Kharn", "Ahriman" and "Lucius".

I don't think that's quite what the CSM 3.5 crowd is arguing for. As I understand things, they'd prefer it such that all Cult Marines are Elites, unless the Special Character of the appropriate Mark is taken.

IOW, if CSM followed the current SM Codex template that everybody knows and loves:
- Khorne Berzerkers are normally Elites
- If you take a HQ with MoCU, then Berzerkers become Scoring
- If you take a HQ with MoK, then Berzerkers become Scoring, but neither Noise Marines nor Havocs may be taken
- If you take a Kharn the Betrayer, then Berzerkers become Troops, non-MoK units may not be taken, and all units gain Rage
... something like that.

skyth wrote:And you can't build fluffy armies in the new 'dex like you could with the old 'dex. (For example, a World Bearers planetary invasion spearhead with Terminators teleporting in supported by Daemons of all four gods)

Well, I'd gladly trade 4-god Word Bearers for 4-god Black Legion. I can't think of any fluff examples of Word Bearers operating that way.

Mine wasn't legal after the new 'dex came out.

What did your list consist of?

Strawman. No one has equated them as equal

Sure they have. For example, there was a complaint that Night Lords were no longer the only legion that could have unlimited Raptors. That's a removed restriction right there.

Funny, I could do that with the 3.5 codex, and often did.

Well, good for you. I couldn't, I needed army builder. The book was a complete mess and regularly cost players tournament points due to invalid lists.

Siren Prince, Daemonbomb, All infiltrating list w/first turn charge

Depends how we define "tournament viable" here I guess. These are not the same power level as the iron warriors gunline. Siren Prince sometimes didn't work, Daemonbomb auto-loses escalation against infiltrators (well in theory anyhow), and all-infiltrate lost it's pony in Alpha missions. Daemonbomb armies now use the Daemons codex in any case (the guy on a bike gets dropped or becomes a herald on chariot I guess)

Sorry, offering a 'special character' is not the same. Any HQ of a given legion would have the same special rules as thier troops. If you have to use counts-as, it's funny that every leader for the legions has the exact same equipment, etc...There are no power-armored Plague Marine Lords, there are no Sorcerer Noice marines? Sorry, don't buy it.

I guess it depends where you sit on "required" special characters for space marines chapters (pedro, vulkan etc). I don't have a problem with them.

And you CAN use the codex marine rules for them if you wish.

Not without argument, and not without losing comp, sports and possibly paint or theme marks. Doing so was also specifically banned at the last tournament I played in.

Elessar wrote:Has it occurred to anyone that they actually have a schedule for new releases, so, even if you all email on the same day asking for Legions, and a million others do so too (okay, maybe not a million) it'd STILL be 5 years?!?! GW is a business, remember. They plan things that far and further ahead, because to a Company that's the near future.

Has it occurred to you that as a business you need to pay attention to the target audience? If you keep pissing on their face with revisions/abominations that exclude prior product that they bought to fill the old codexes(but is no longer legal) kinda annoying? Also seeing as they have ignored everyone but the SM, IG, Ork, etc you may not want to piss off the chaos people cause lets see thats one of the most played.. I mean how many more people can GW piss off 2day?

Elessar wrote:Has it occurred to anyone that they actually have a schedule for new releases, so, even if you all email on the same day asking for Legions, and a million others do so too (okay, maybe not a million) it'd STILL be 5 years?!?!

Yes, but that schedule isn't graven in stone.

If you look at the Codices, SM get a release 1st or 2nd with every edition.

The Major Codices (CSM. Eldar, IG, Orks, Nids, and Tau) are on a roughly 5-year cycle, which almost syncs with the current 4-year edition cycle.

Other stuff is on a 6-12 year cycle.


Still, an intriguing concept that's been floating around in my head has players put down $25 deposits (non-refundable, of course) on Codices that they want. Whichever Codex has the most preorder money on deposit gets the next book. If GW decides it's not worth their time, GW can, at their sole discretion, convert the deposits into store credit, minus a processing charge and percentage.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

jp400 wrote:This and the last one are the best things ive read in a long time online!

I'm worried that if I extend the metaphor any futher I'll draw too much aggro from the Mods, and they have a higher DPP (damage per post) ratio than I do. If that happens I'll have to go to the Personal Message skill tree to try and get myself out of danger, but that has been known to miscast from time to time. And it's recharge rate is horrible - you can usually only use it once per mod per week.

Thats a good point, and we all know that if you try to PVP with a mod chances are you will end up haveing to re-roll your character from scratch when they hit you with the Legendary Purple Ban Hammer +1. Funny that cause they seem to have no power against the repeat trolls and spammers from the forumville dungeon, yet will lay the smackdown vs well thought out comments.

Alas.......

Neil wrote:Too much hate in this thread, not enough love.

I love the current Chaos codex. I hated the old one.

1: I can build fluffy armies with the current codex that I couldn't with the 3.5 codex. (For example, a four god Black Leigon list).
2: Most 3.5E armies translate over directly.
3: Removing restrictions is not the same as removing options.
4: I can write an army list easily with just pen and paper.
5: Let's not kid ourselves pretending that the old dex had more "tournament viable" builds. It was iron warriors or bust.
6: If you want a character leading your force with the same special rules as your troops, look up "Typhus", "Kharn", "Ahriman" and "Lucius".

On a side note, I'm a Dark Angels player. I would absolutely love for there to be no Dark Angels codex. Then I could use my green space marines in dresses with the Space Marine codex without arguments.

1: You can build Fluffy "counts as" lists that you couldnt with the 3.5 Dex, cause in 3.5 they had rules! (DeathGuard, IW ect ect)
2: Most 3.5 armies transfer over.... after buying new models or ripping arms/weapons off your current models to convert them over. (Boo!)
3: GW says different. They remove options to remove restrictions, or add restrictions to remove options.
4: If you have a 4th grade education you can write an ANY army list with pen and paper.
5: Did you even play back then? My FLGS had five or six chaos players and each had a DIFFERENT army. Not just paint wise, but in every way possible. You had Daemon bombs, Rhino Rushers, Gunlines, Infiltration armies, Seige Armies, all CC armies, ect ect and they all were tourny viable. Now you just have dual lash, Pm spam and Oblits. YAWN!
6: LoL.. this argument holds no water. Look at the 3.5 options for a lord/sorcerer and compare them to the current ones. Guess what? You cant! 3.5 blows them out of the water in so many ways I would get writers cramp just from typing it out. Great new model, New crap rules.

Neil wrote:

skyth wrote:And you can't build fluffy armies in the new 'dex like you could with the old 'dex. (For example, a World Bearers planetary invasion spearhead with Terminators teleporting in supported by Daemons of all four gods)

Well, I'd gladly trade 4-god Word Bearers for 4-god Black Legion. I can't think of any fluff examples of Word Bearers operating that way.

Replace World Bearers with Black Legion with thier love for Terminators. Possible under 3.5, not possible under 4th.

Mine wasn't legal after the new 'dex came out.

What did your list consist of?

Alpha Legion...I used 8 man Troops squads with either a special and a heavy or two specials. I would have to buy new models to make them legal squads.

I also had no HQ's remaining, as I modeled mine with daemonic speed, which doesn't exist any more.
Hard to field an army with no Troop or HQ selections.

Not to mention the models that I couldn't use (My Cultists, the 10 models I had modeled to have Daemonic Speed) and the utter lack of Icons in my army.

Strawman. No one has equated them as equal

Sure they have. For example, there was a complaint that Night Lords were no longer the only legion that could have unlimited Raptors. That's a removed restriction right there.

Again, strawman. That is not removing options and the complaint would not characterize that as removing options. The complaint, in that case, is of removing speciality.

Funny, I could do that with the 3.5 codex, and often did.

Well, good for you. I couldn't, I needed army builder. The book was a complete mess and regularly cost players tournament points due to invalid lists.

When, where, and out of how many Chaos players And how many people with other codexes lost points due to invalid lists. Not to mention which tournaments? And how many of these were honest mistakes as opposed to intentional?

Siren Prince, Daemonbomb, All infiltrating list w/first turn charge

Depends how we define "tournament viable" here I guess. These are not the same power level as the iron warriors gunline. Siren Prince sometimes didn't work, Daemonbomb auto-loses escalation against infiltrators (well in theory anyhow), and all-infiltrate lost it's pony in Alpha missions. Daemonbomb armies now use the Daemons codex in any case (the guy on a bike gets dropped or becomes a herald on chariot I guess)

Daemonbombs had multiple forms, not just a single guy on a bike. It could be Terminator-delivered, Siren -delivered, Bike delivered via squads, etc. Not to mention that not all Tournaments used Alpha level (The UKGT certainly didn't) and not all used Escalation. Oh, and the Iron Warriors lists auto-loses against Siren Prince or all-infiltrating lists or Daemonbombs that win the roll-off for first turn.

Sorry, offering a 'special character' is not the same. Any HQ of a given legion would have the same special rules as thier troops. If you have to use counts-as, it's funny that every leader for the legions has the exact same equipment, etc...There are no power-armored Plague Marine Lords, there are no Sorcerer Noice marines? Sorry, don't buy it.

I guess it depends where you sit on "required" special characters for space marines chapters (pedro, vulkan etc). I don't have a problem with them.

I don't like them either. It is a horrible game-design mechanic. Though some of them can be done without a special character (All bike armies, for instance or 10th company lists)

And you CAN use the codex marine rules for them if you wish.

Not without argument, and not without losing comp, sports and possibly paint or theme marks. Doing so was also specifically banned at the last tournament I played in.

jp400 wrote:1: You can build Fluffy "counts as" lists that you couldnt with the 3.5 Dex, cause in 3.5 they had rules! (DeathGuard, IW ect ect)

Iron Warriors? Huh? Why can they not be built without "counts as"?

HQ:
- Chaos Lord with Power Fist

Troops:
- 10 Khorne Berserkers in Rhino
- 10 Chaos Space Marines in Rhino w. 2x Melta
- 10 Chaos Space Marines in Rhino w. 2x Melta

Heavy Support:
- Vindicator
- Defiler
- 3x Obliterators

What is "counts as" in that army?

In fact in 3.5 you couldn't put the Khorne Berserkers in there are still call it an Iron Warriors army, despite Iron Warriors using Khorne Berserkers in the fluff. Becuase of useless restrictions.

2: Most 3.5 armies transfer over.... after buying new models or ripping arms/weapons off your current models to convert them over. (Boo!)

Cite specific examples please. The only thing which didn't translate over in my wife's thousand sons army was the Thrall Wizards, until she figured out she could use them as lesser demons (they were modelled as skeletons).

Noise Marines might need a modicum of counts as (although putting noise weapons on vehicles was allways a terrible option).

3: GW says different. They remove options to remove restrictions, or add restrictions to remove options.

What options have really been removed, though?
Basilisks, sonic weapons, and the variety of daemons. Alpha legion cultists? Anything else?

But look at all the restrictions that have been removed:

0-1 Raptors, Obliterators in non cult lists
Ability for non-Iron Warriors to take Vindicators
Ability to take units of all four gods (no more emnity rules)

4: If you have a 4th grade education you can write an ANY army list with pen and paper.

..except the 3.5 chaos codex. Unbelievable amount of page flipping involved. Restrictions hidden all over hte place. Options for whole new troops types included in block text (like rubric terminators). Ridiculous.

5: Did you even play back then? My FLGS had five or six chaos players and each had a DIFFERENT army. Not just paint wise, but in every way possible. You had Daemon bombs, Rhino Rushers, Gunlines, Infiltration armies, Seige Armies, all CC armies, ect ect and they all were tourny viable. Now you just have dual lash, Pm spam and Oblits. YAWN!

Were they really tourny viable? Really?

There's plenty in hte current chaos codex which is FLGS viable. I'd argue that there is more that is tourney viable than given credit for. EG Rhino spam, or zerker rush in rhinos or raiders (which don't need lash at all). ANd plenty more which could win a tournament, but is not necissarily "optimal" in internet land.

I play in Australia, we have a pretty low powered fluff-bunny environment so I can't comment too much on this, however.

6: LoL.. this argument holds no water. Look at the 3.5 options for a lord/sorcerer and compare them to the current ones. Guess what? You cant! 3.5 blows them out of the water in so many ways I would get writers cramp just from typing it out. Great new model, New crap rules.

Sure I can. First I will eliminate all the 3.5 options that nobody ever took (most of them). Then I will incorporate the options that everybody allways took into the model's profile (strength, d. wep, spikey bits, inv save). The list of options is no so big after that (basically "Speed, Bike, Wings or Stature?").

Not that anyone should be taking a lord or sorceror over the ridiculously good deal Daemon Prince (GW are currently overcosting IC status, prety consistently across all codexes).

There... are... four... lights!!!!!!!!!

I, for one am tired of being lumped into "One of those Chaos players that hates the new codex". Not ALL Chaos players loved the old codex and hate the new one, not ALL Chaos players had an army that performed better in the old codex than in the new.

If the whiny Chaos players think that then tell that to my 48 Berserkers (6x8 but only for fluff, thought free champions was kind of lame) who would spend all game chasing speeders and land raiders around the board.

So I'm sorry if I don't sympathise with the current crop of Chaos haters. Had I kept my WE's it would at least be a viable army under the new codex, alas, I sold it because it lost all it's FUN and VIABILITY from 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed (for my army 3rd Ed was a lot more fun than 3.5) to what WOULD be a fun army now.

Oh yeah, I also had 12 Khornate Juggers I had to sell from 3rd to 3.5 as they ceased to be a unit so I'm sorry if I don't sympathize with people who LOST Cult Terminators but can at least field the frakking models because they are, after all, terminators and model wise still usable (even if one has to use counts as for sonic weapons).