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You decide the organization of units before you deploy them, I'm not following here.

Some of these raw points are valid, but most are really reaching and it takes away from the serious ones (i.e. saying Hive Tyrants cannot take bone swords as they are not Tyranids...)

Fearspect - it has NOTHING to do with organisation, but to do with the specific rules on jow ICs join units during deployment.

The ONLY way for an IC to join a unit during *deployment* as opposed to Reserves is to be *deployed in coherency)* with the unit.

This means the unit you want Shrike to join to HAS to be on the table - if they are not you *cannot* be in coherency as you have no way to measure to the unit to determine 2".

So, the unit has been deployed - and, as it is not Shrikes unit, it does not have Infiltrate. Meaning it has to deploy normally.

If you try to hold the unit back to the infitlrate step, you still cannot deploy them - as they dont have infiltrate. They must therefore go in reserve where you *can* join Shrike, however it is not too late to deploy them as Infiltrators - so they hav eto Outflank (or arrive normally...)

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." p 48

This is not a conditional statement of 'A, but only if B', it reads as 'if A then B'.

Fearspect wrote:"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." p 48

This is not a conditional statement of 'A, but only if B', it reads as 'if A then B'.

Yes, to join the unit, he must deploy in coherency. To do that, the unit without infiltrate must be deployed, BEFORE the "Deploy infiltrators" step.

Fearspect wrote:"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." p 48

This is not a conditional statement of 'A, but only if B', it reads as 'if A then B'.

So how are you measuring coherency without the unit being on the table? As the only way to deploy in the Infiltrate step is to *already have* Infiltrate you cannot deploy hte unit and then Shrike.

the line you think supports your case actually destroys it.

Wrong, because of the comma. Also, you are both reading in words that are not there.

Anyway, you can get really obtuse about just about anything written (And They Shall Know No Fear rule refers to Space Marines, there is no unit named this, etc. etc.) to the point where every sentence can be challenged if you choose to be difficult (or by ignoring English structure).

OP: I really think the word games ones should be removed; they are really reaching to expand your list. I am positive that plenty can be found without resorting to those which kind of discredit your whole post. I do like things like the Blood Angels transports not having exits - now that is a funny omission.

Let's keep it polite please people.

Fearspect - sorry, no, you're still wrong on this.

the "by" places a requirement on how an IC starts the game with a unit. The only way an IC can start the game with a unit is BY deploying with the unit.

Please explain how you think it parses otherwise?

The requirement it places is how to deploy him, but he is already part of the unit prior to deployment.

Part 1, or, an alternative way to join a unit:

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit..."

The game begins prior to deployment, so it does not factor in.

Part 2, how to deploy them:

"...by being deployed in coherency with them."

Ensuring you do not pass on rules and then abandon them on the first turn.

Edit: We should probably take this elsewhere...

Actually the game begins at Step 5: Start the Game! It cannot begin prior to deployment otherwise the sentence makes no sense.

"by being deployed" *is the condition* you must fulfill. So, if you want to join the IC to the unit, you MUST deploy the IC *in coherency* with the unit.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy in coherency when either unit is off the table.

Why not deploy shrike, and then the unit he has joined will deploy in coherency with him?

In fact, if you want to get REALLY RAW you can ONLY deploy or move a whole unit at once (not individual figures) since they must be in coherency at all times, meaning that you have to place all 30 Ork Boys at once, all within 2" or you are breaking the rules!

I see movement trays making an appearance in 40K

Oh, and knocking a miniature over by accident so that it is out of coherency, or picking it up off the table more than 2" is cheating.

ihatehumans wrote:Why not deploy shrike, and then the unit he has joined will deploy in coherency with him?

You can only do that if you don't want to infiltrate them. Otherwise, the unit doesn't have the infiltrate ability until Shrike joins them... so they would have had to be deployed with the rest of the army.

In fact, if you want to get REALLY RAW you can ONLY deploy or move a whole unit at once (not individual figures) since they must be in coherency at all times, meaning that you have to place all 30 Ork Boys at once, all within 2" or you are breaking the rules!

This is incorrect. Models have to be in coherency after finishing their movement. There is no requirement for models to be in coherency at all times.

Oh, and knocking a miniature over by accident so that it is out of coherency, or picking it up off the table more than 2" is cheating.

Doing anything by accident is not cheating. Cheating requires deliberate intent. And the second point is incorrect for the same reason as your deployment example.

ihatehumans wrote:Why not deploy shrike, and then the unit he has joined will deploy in coherency with him?

A. Because there is no 'unit he has joined' until he has deployed in coherency with them
B. Because he isn't being deployed in coherency with them in that case
C. Because the unit doesn't have infiltrate and couldn't deploy next to him anyway, thus defeating the whole purpose

Fearspect wrote:The requirement it places is how to deploy him, but he is already part of the unit prior to deployment.

There is no way provided by the rules for him to be joined to the unit prior to deployment unless you're keeping him in Reserves.


If you go back and have another look at the IC deployment rules, the 'alternate way of deploying' is alternate to deploying him by himself. No reference is ever made to being able to put the IC with the unit before you deploy them outside the rules for Reserves.

I agree insaniak that the alternate to deploying him alone is to deploy him in a unit.

Fearspect wrote:I agree insaniak that the alternate to deploying him alone is to deploy him in a unit.

You can deploy him into a unit. Not with a unit, as you were claiming before. It's an important distinction, and it's what stops him (by RAW) from being able to infiltrate with a unit that doesn't itself already have the Infiltrate USR.

Nobody (or at least practically nobody) actually plays that way... but that isn't the point of this thread.

Its right there in the rule I quoted: he joins the unit, then you put them down together. Everyone keeps adding this mysterious sentence of "He is not part of the unit until they hit the table."

And I thought we were getting along so well... :(

Fearspect wrote:Its right there in the rule I quoted: he joins the unit, then you put them down together. Everyone keeps adding this mysterious sentence of "He is not part of the unit until they hit the table."

And I thought we were getting along so well... :(

Because he ISN'T PART OF THE UNIT UNTIL HE HITS THE TABLE. How hard is that for you to grasp?

Fearspect wrote:Its right there in the rule I quoted: he joins the unit, then you put them down together. Everyone keeps adding this mysterious sentence of "He is not part of the unit until they hit the table."

And I thought we were getting along so well... :(

What part of "by deploying in coherency" are you struggling with?

How are you deploying in coherency without either deplpoying the unit or Shrike. If you are stating you are deploying in coherency while off the table, you are not a) deploying or b) able to measure coherency.

He joins the unit, then you deploy them in coherency, just like it says in the rule. The comma parses the sentence that way.

If it were a requirement to do as you both state, the comma would be removed and you would still have a grammatically correct sentence that says something different.

Edit:

I see what's happening. You are all reading the sentence like this:

"By being deployed in coherency with a unit, an independent character may alternately begin the game already with them."

Again, not what is written.

Fearspect wrote:He joins the unit, then you deploy them in coherency, just like it says in the rule.

Except that the rule doesn't say that. Nowhere does it state that he joins the unit before they are deployed. It instead states that he has to be deployed in coherency to join the unit.

The unit is deployed. You can then deploy the IC in coherency with them, at which point he counts as joined to the unit.

I see what's happening. You are all reading the sentence like this:

"By being deployed in coherency with a unit, an independent character may alternately begin the game already with them."

That's how we're reading it, yes.

Fearspect wrote:He joins the unit, then you deploy them in coherency, just like it says in the rule. The comma parses the sentence that way.

If it were a requirement to do as you both state, the comma would be removed and you would still have a grammatically correct sentence that says something different.

Edit:

I see what's happening. You are all reading the sentence like this:

"By being deployed in coherency with a unit, an independent character may alternately begin the game already with them."

Again, not what is written.

Actually, the comma does not work that way.

In this case, that comma is a grammatical error and should not be there. It's presence does not change the meaning of the sentence. The best possible justification for including it would be the "natural pause" rule for comma usage that not every style manual ascribes to anymore.

Check the following link and see rule number 9.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp

The following sentences mean the same thing:

"Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit by being deployed in coherency with them."

and

"Alternatively, by being deployed in coherency with them, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit."

Also, I believe that GW missed a correct comma usage in that sentence after the word "alternatively" at the beginning of the sentence; there should be one there, but I don't think GW included one in their rules.

I read your link, Saldiven. I have never heard of strong/weak clauses. "If you are not sure about this, let me know now." is the example you give, but this is clearly a conditional statement. Maybe if the phrase was, "If you want an independent character to begin the game with a unit, then you must deploy them in coherency." then your rule #9 would apply.

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit" reads like an independent clause to me (a sentence that can stand alone).

The second part, "by being deployed in coherency with them." is subordinate to the first, depending on the first part to make sense.

However it still applies a condition on the first - in order to start the game with a unit, it must be deployed in coherency.

Lol, love the thread.

--Nevermind, nothing to see here

Absolutely agree, nosferatu1001. The condition is that if you chose to join them to a unit, then you put them down in coherency when it later comes time to deploy them. A little redundant, but I hear GW HQ is a silly place.

But as has been pointed out "may start the game" is AFTER deployment, therefore they are not joined until the start of the game.

Which is after deployment is over, and after you have any choice to deploy the unit as infiltrators. See Step 5: Start the Game!

Look guys please don't spend the next page going round in circles. The RAW is that he can't deploy as infiltrators with a unit. But the way everyone plays it, is that they can.

Every other RAW rule in here isn't really played that way. But that's what the RAW states.

Oshova

So rolling for first turn (the single most important dice roll of the game), picking sides, setting up objectives, and deployment are not part of the game?

I guess by the book that is something hard written, and something the OP can add to his list.