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orkcommander wrote:Now the deff rolla is finely worth the points.

By that you mean extremely under priced right?

I know the Ork players are pretty happy about this, and they should be. It takes the one thing (av14) that Orks have problems with and removes the issue. It does not make the least bit of sense when you consider LR's and Monoliths, but then again common sense is pretty much non-existent in alot of 40k so this is no surprise.

Is there another codex that will get you even 1 str10 auto hit for the same amount of points, let alone the 1-6 str10+1 variable str ram hit you get from these? Is there another weapon no matter what the cost that can kill both the transport AND the some of the troops inside(aside from explosion kills which you will get as well)? Can any one piece of wargear do anything like this multiple times with a single hit (hit a vehicle at 6", kill it, continue moving 7" impacting another on the way)? I know people will say "Just avoid them, its only 13" ram radius." However when those BW's contain 15 Lootas with a 4+ cover save "just avoiding" them becomes just as dangerous if not more.

Say that this is how it always should have been all you want, but Orks got a MAJOR (unneeded) boost up the power ladder with minimal points investment with them confirming these as working on vehicles.

Nids would have a better time against it than mech guard or marines. MCs with 3+ saves don't really care if they get hit with a deff rolla. Its the burna's and lootas that support those battlewagons that I would worry about.

What it does to the ork list is switch target priorities. A mech marine could afford to let a BW get close in the past in exchange for taking out further away support units. Now you HAVE to get rid of the battlewagons a lot sooner to ensure you lines don't get wtfpwned.

Clay Williams wrote:Nids would have a better time against it than mech guard or marines. MCs with 3+ saves don't really care if they get hit with a deff rolla. Its the burna's and lootas that support those battlewagons that I would worry about.

What it does to the ork list is switch target priorities. A mech marine could afford to let a BW get close in the past in exchange for taking out further away support units. Now you HAVE to get rid of the battlewagons a lot sooner to ensure you lines don't get wtfpwned.

Good thing they don't have anything giving them a constant cover save on them.....oh wait.

Yep, Deffrollas are completely unfair. The front d6 s10 hits is very likely to cause an explosion result on most transports. On a LR it is better than a melta, as meltas only give 1 roll on the damage chart max. This is the very definition of OP: the deffrolla deals with all targets with efficiency, for a fraction of the cost of those targets.

Kaotik wrote:Say that this is how it always should have been all you want, but Orks got a MAJOR (unneeded) boost up the power ladder with minimal points investment with them confirming these as working on vehicles.

What I love is that *everyone* who is anti-deff rollas entirely forgets (or "misremembers") that deffrollas worked entirely perfectly in 4th ed against vehicles. In fact *every* every behicle apart from LR and Monoliths.

So in other words this ruling not only fits the actual rules, but precedent *and* fluff!

But of course, there will still be some people whining, same as they whined about nob bikers, lash princes, hell even raider spam (for 11 years....) - and the answer is ALWAYS the same: learn how to deal with it, adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.

Now can people leave the "bwaaaah this is too over powered! its the end of armies!" out and into general?

Gwar! wrote:Nids are not that hot tbh. Doom is not that good, Tervigon Spam will die in KP missions, and 60 melta Drop Pod Guard will just shoot the big ones and watch the rest collapse

This is how Drop Pod armies lose.

The FAQ is now available in english. GWAR uploaded a copy. You can download it from this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280916.page

or go to GW's homepage and get it from the source.

And yes... Deffrolla = d6 S10 hits on vehicles!!!

***Nevermind looks like this went on for nine pages, before my reply finally posted. Dirty Southwest asian internet crappiness...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kaotik wrote:Say that this is how it always should have been all you want, but Orks got a MAJOR (unneeded) boost up the power ladder with minimal points investment with them confirming these as working on vehicles.

What I love is that *everyone* who is anti-deff rollas entirely forgets (or "misremembers") that deffrollas worked entirely perfectly in 4th ed against vehicles. In fact *every* every behicle apart from LR and Monoliths.

Never plated 4th. I'm forgetting nothing

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So in other words this ruling not only fits the actual rules, but precedent *and* fluff!

Fluff wise I dont see how adding some metal spikes on the frost of a vehicle all of a sudden makes it more powerfull than the most powerful shooting weapons the imperium can dish out (1D6 S10 hits vs 1 S10 hit) and how is a deffrolla supposed to "crush" a land raider, or a monolith, 2 vehicles that are bigger and heavier than a Battlewagon? sorry, no fluff arguement here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
But of course, there will still be some people whining, same as they whined about nob bikers, lash princes, hell even raider spam (for 11 years....) - and the answer is ALWAYS the same: learn how to deal with it, adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.

Now can people leave the "bwaaaah this is too over powered! its the end of armies!" out and into general?

Hey, I just said I had terrible luck with b'wagons already, and this just means I'll need to change my list to include more cheese to compensate.

Budzerker wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:So I am assuming the D6 S10 hits replace the actual ram rule then? No mention is made that they stack.

From the FAQ:

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

This lends credence to the "they do stack" argument. As it seems you resolve the Tank Shock, then if your vehicle is still alive, you take the Rolla' hits.

Does this mean that if a skimmer succesfully stops a ram on a 3+ does it not take the ram but still take deffrolla hits?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kaotik wrote:Say that this is how it always should have been all you want, but Orks got a MAJOR (unneeded) boost up the power ladder with minimal points investment with them confirming these as working on vehicles.

What I love is that *everyone* who is anti-deff rollas entirely forgets (or "misremembers") that deffrollas worked entirely perfectly in 4th ed against vehicles. In fact *every* every behicle apart from LR and Monoliths.

So in other words this ruling not only fits the actual rules, but precedent *and* fluff!

But of course, there will still be some people whining, same as they whined about nob bikers, lash princes, hell even raider spam (for 11 years....) - and the answer is ALWAYS the same: learn how to deal with it, adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.

Now can people leave the "bwaaaah this is too over powered! its the end of armies!" out and into general?

If it STILL only effected things less than av14 I can pretty much assure you it would not be anywhere near the issue it is. With access to a constant 4+ cover and an av14 front they were already right under monoliths as the toughest gak to try to shoot before it dumped orcs on you. I am not saying this is a game breaking change, but the points cost should have close to doubled with the change that was made.

Nob Bikers, Seer Councils, etc. have no bearing on this argument because you pay out the ass for them. BW's are cheap, have easy access to a constant 4+ cover save, can carry more guys than any transport, are open topped for Loota fun, and now have the best AT weapon you can throw on a tank regardless of range.

Ya, I guess you are right there is nothing wrong there.

It's nice to see GW taking some initiative with their rules. I hope that they keep it up.

Demogerg wrote:Never plated 4th. I'm forgetting nothing

Ah, so you're just ignorant of history then. And thats a positive because....?

Demogerg wrote:Fluff wise I dont see how adding some metal spikes on the frost of a vehicle all of a sudden makes it more powerfull than the most powerful shooting weapons the imperium can dish out (1D6 S10 hits vs 1 S10 hit) and how is a deffrolla supposed to "crush" a land raider, or a monolith, 2 vehicles that are bigger and heavier than a Battlewagon? sorry, no fluff arguement here.

You've got a funny idea of "the most powerful weapon the imperium can dish out", I can personally think of about 10 that are more powerful, and thats 10 that I *own*, not total.

In addition it does fit the fluff - they can crush vehicles in their fluff, this is what they are doing, crushing vehicles. It just doesnt fit *your* idea on fluff.

(LR ~ 60tons, BW can easily be that much - lower AV doesnt mean it necessarily *weighs* less)

Demogerg wrote:Hey, I just said I had terrible luck with b'wagons already, and this just means I'll need to change my list to include more cheese to compensate.

So? What part of "leave the whining out of YMDC" was unclear? "brinigng more cheese" jsut means adapting - and only for tournaments, unless you have a *really* unfriendlygaming group where you cant talk to your opponents.

This isnt a rules question, and should really be in News.

Just a question based on some recent responses...

Do people really put Lootas in Battle Wagons? Really? I've never seen or heard of that before. Why?

And if Lootas in Battle Wagons are such a big problem, then this new FAQ is actually a good thing...if they want to cruise up the field to use their awesome Deff Rolla, they're not shooting with the Lootas inside.

Lootas in wagons aren't the worry. It's 20 sluggas in Wagons that crush your raider then pour out and murder your Marines.

Good show there, now GW just has to mop up the tears from the anti-deffrolla crowd and market it as a cure for bad dice rolling!

Siris picture this for me.....

3x BW all sitting next to one another. In the middle a Big Mek with KFF, on the outsides are 15 Lootas each. You now have a battery firing 30-90 str7 shots per round sitting in AV14 with a constant 4+ cover.

The Defrollas thing is not such a big deal with Lootas as it is with the 20 Boyz, but it effects it. Before you would either pray your av11 rhinos made it through the str7 spam or drive your LR up there and handle it with the guys inside+that tank. Now if you fail to kill all three you most likely lose both your guys AND the Landraider for trying.

Deff Rolla costs a few points.
Battlewagon costs you yet more. Minimum cost for a Deff Rolla is therefore Battlewagon + Deff Rolla.

To get the 4+ save, you need a Big Mek. Add his points, and those for KFF to that price.

THEN, add the cost of Lootas as well.

Not cheap. Not cheap in the least.

Why are you putting a Deff Rolla on a Wagon that will be stationary 99% of the time?

Kaotik wrote:Siris picture this for me.....

3x BW all sitting next to one another. In the middle a Big Mek with KFF, on the outsides are 15 Lootas each. You now have a battery firing 30-90 str7 shots per round sitting in AV14 with a constant 4+ cover.

For over a thousand points, taking up all your heavy and elite slots and an HQ slot, with BS2, and basically completely immobile? Oh noes, call the fair police, the orks must be cheating.

The rolla worked perfectly well against vehicles when the cost was set. You aren't going to convince anyone that it's suddenly unfair unless they already think so.

Fluff-wise, it seems to me you can assume that the deffrolla produces some energy field similar to the one created by the power klaw, and its source is faith that it will roll over the land raider and puree the marines inside. Faith is the most powerful weapon for the ork.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kaotik wrote:Say that this is how it always should have been all you want, but Orks got a MAJOR (unneeded) boost up the power ladder with minimal points investment with them confirming these as working on vehicles.

What I love is that *everyone* who is anti-deff rollas entirely forgets (or "misremembers") that deffrollas worked entirely perfectly in 4th ed against vehicles. In fact *every* every behicle apart from LR and Monoliths.

So in other words this ruling not only fits the actual rules, but precedent *and* fluff!

But of course, there will still be some people whining, same as they whined about nob bikers, lash princes, hell even raider spam (for 11 years....) - and the answer is ALWAYS the same: learn how to deal with it, adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.

Now can people leave the "bwaaaah this is too over powered! its the end of armies!" out and into general?

The big difference there being fifth editions troops scoring rules turned the ork codex instantly into the single most powerful book released, and it stayed that way for years. The power scale in fourth was and is irrelevant, what matters is the current metagame, and in that format the orks (a top tier army) have gained a cheap and incredibly effective tool for destroying other vehicles that is relatively immune to traditional methods of protection. This has significantly increased their capabilities against virtually all other opposing top tier armies (mech/shooty guard, all mech eldar, mech chaos, mech everything else all top tier lists are mech lists). Precedent is utterly meaningless, this isn't a court system and precedents are invalidated every time a new edition of the game is introduced.

The upgrade is unreasonably cheap for it's capabilities and doesn't make a particular amount of fluff sense. That said, It's at least better than having the question be up in the air.

Gwar! wrote:Why are you putting a Deff Rolla on a Wagon that will be stationary 99% of the time?

Edit on the original post. Yes it is not as much an issue with the Lootas, but it does crap on one of the very few ways to deal with it aside from Drop Pods.

EDIT:

Shuma said it alot better above than I have.

NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :(

Well I for one am excited to finally be able to say, "I am going to death or glory with my land raider since you are tank shocking me" and proceed to fire my multi-melta. Guess its fair since its a tank shock, a special kind of tank shock.

Demogerg wrote:This is terrible news for me, I have to worst luck in trying to destroy Battlewagons, 20+ melta shots in double pen range, 15+ assault cannon shots, and a few lascannon shots, many of which were on side/rear armor, and I'll still fail to kill a single battlewagon.

I'm TERRIBLY SAD AND TRYING TO EVADE THE SWEAR FILTER.

Please do not attempt to get around the language filter.


Hmm, so a typo leads to an insult from a mod? I see how this goes.

I guess Rule #1 doesnt apply to some people.

$25 by PayPal and you can Roll wit da Lench Mob too.

So it wasnt unreasonably cheap in 4th ed, but is now?

Sorry, the rules dont work that way.

Anyway, that *entire* post was "bwaaaah, this is too powerful!!!!" - what part of "that isnt a rules post" went over your head?

Adapt or die. Adapt or die. Whining isnt an option on that list.

That's my question too Gwar. You could do that just as easily without the Rollas.

Kaotik: That's what I pictured, I just wondered why. The things have a long side arc, AV12 on the side, open topped, and everyone and their brother has anti-tank. A 4+ cover save is nice, but then if a vehicle explodes the Lootas may take casualties from that, may even get pinned or fall back if they lose too many. If the vehicle gets wrecked they have to bail out and possibly not have cover (or only a 5+). Why not just deploy the Lootas in cover, put something aggressive in Battle Wagons, put Deff Rollas on them, and blitz forward with fire support?

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Well I for one am excited to finally be able to say, "I am going to death or glory with my land raider since you are tank shocking me" and proceed to fire my multi-melta. Guess its fair since its a tank shock, a special kind of tank shock.

Nice, I like that.

ShumaGorath wrote:The upgrade is unreasonably cheap for it's capabilities and doesn't make a particular amount of fluff sense. That said, It's at least better than having the question be up in the air.

Just to illustrate this:

Seriously. A Deff Rolla actually has to hit you to do it's work. I've never seen a LR without a MM on it. If you play a little more defensively than you may be used too, you should have at least three rounds of 2d6 armor pen on the BW. BW's, which by the way are open topped, meaning every hit against it gets treated as AP 1, and AP 1 weapons get a +2 on the chart, so don't hand me this bit about BW's being the hardest thing to kill, anything that gets through the cover save and armor is going to to do some damage.

But this is far better really than the majority of games I've played with LR marines, where you end up with just the LR left driving 12" a turn and shooting at Nobs, who chase it, assault it... oh look, 2 6's.. Crap, no 5+... repeat


Even if someone slaps some 'ard tops on their wagons to make them dedicated deff rolla anti-tank, I really doubt rolla spam is going to make a dent in the current top tourney lists, which is str 8+ spam shooting attacks.