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Wow ... spotted a few shameless posts...

I just want to bring something up. EVERYONE have a subject they are sensitive about , trust me.
Because everyone value things differently , there are going to be issues when people are rubbed the wrong way , all it takes are
people disrespecting what others find important.

For example: "Religion? i dont care about religion , i really dont! if you get worked up over it , you are causing drama"
or " What? GW? GW is god send miniature company of godly status , who ever doesnt appreciate what they do can feel my wrath "

But you see , the 2nd sentence can be viewed as drama too.

In other words , DRAMA and WHITE KNIGHTS will always co-exist. They will ALWAYS appear to defend what the individual is sensitive about. No exceptions.
There are white knights to defend people that they find important. And there are white knight to defend a company they find important.

More blatantly put:

"You make fun of what i find important? You need to be put down on the spot."

"You guys fight and argue over issues what i personally dont care about? shush and stop making drama. "

Thus drama are always there , its just what frequency people are picking them up at. Hence "No Bobby, You are the dramas."

If anyone is serious about wanting to save OT , then they need to realize , it needs to start with respecting what others find important.
NO MATTER WHAT SUBJECT IT IS , No exceptions.

Remember this folks , we dont need to "like or care" about something in order to show it the basic common level of respect.
So if you find yourself been worked up when others are expressing something they experienced that is different then your personal experience , or value something differently,
Dont get worked up. Take a deep breath and think / consider what they have gone through. RESPECT the reality of the incidents they have experienced and why they "weigh" it like they do.
Dont dismiss what others have claimed purely based on something yourself have not encountered yet. Dont dismiss what others find important just because you dont.

"I" am NOT the world. "I" maybe everything in my own world , but thats as far as it goes.

And for mods , yes i get you , you guys are busy. But remember this as well.
To you guys , we are just one among the tens of thousands of member.
But to us , you are the only few examples we think we should follow. So dont be lenient , dont be biased , i know its hard we are all humans.
But isnt that why we respect mods so much? NOT just for the works you do , but because you are supposed to be the brighter examples on how we should try to be?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/288399/1484842.page#1484842

So just posting that of an idea I just had (if it didn't come up already). Would you think filtering p/r discussions through mods so they can post it would be a better idea than closing down such debate?

WarOne wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/288399/1484842.page#1484842

So just posting that of an idea I just had (if it didn't come up already). Would you think filtering p/r discussions through mods so they can post it would be a better idea than closing down such debate?

Are the MODs not busy enough?

WarOne wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/288399/1484842.page#1484842

So just posting that of an idea I just had (if it didn't come up already). Would you think filtering p/r discussions through mods so they can post it would be a better idea than closing down such debate?

No , we need to follow what is allowed and not allowed. Its pointless having holding our hands for everything.

LunaHound wrote:

WarOne wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/288399/1484842.page#1484842

So just posting that of an idea I just had (if it didn't come up already). Would you think filtering p/r discussions through mods so they can post it would be a better idea than closing down such debate?

No , we need to know what is allowed and not allowed. Its pointless having holding our hands for everything.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236985.page

In particular that means you still need to be polite and friendly, even when discussing such hot topics as politics and religion.

That being the Off-Topic Forum's rules, and with specific mention to religion and politics posted last year back in April, and with that warning not heeded, I would have to say we would need our hands held in order to keep the ability to debate, specifically politics and religion.

There is a difference between polite + friendly and actually been respectful. Read the long post i made on top of this page.


Ppl are too easily dancing back and forth on the fine line , and getting away with it. Been lenient , while thats merciful , is not effective and produce more opening for future problems.

OT can exist , mods dont have to hold our hands. But the real question is how adamant are the rules to be enforced.

Yakface need to decide , how lax should Dakka be. Because these are the after effects.

Big forums like warseer and such are strict , but not because they are anal about stuff. It because they want to play it safe.

whatwhat wrote:That's a good analogy. Although as we have already found out from this thread that people have said they would leave if they can't talk about politics and religion. So just as you had kicked said person out, on the other hand someone would just leave.

That's their choice. If they feel that not being able to discuss that particular topic gives them no reason to be there, or that they are unable to abide by a request to behave themselves, that's entirely up to them.

LunaHound wrote:If anyone is serious about wanting to save OT , then they need to realize , it needs to start with respecting what others find important.

It's probably worth pointing out yet again that closing down the OT forum entirely is not currently on the table.

And yes, showing a little respect for others' beliefs goes a long way. But so does learning to respond in an appropriate fashion to something you perceive as trolling. As we've pointed out numerous times in the past, responding in kind to an insulting post just drops you to the same level as the original poster.




So far as increasing moderation goes, here's the thing: OT gets a little more leeway than most of the other areas of the board. That's deliberate, to allow people a little more freedom to discuss non-gaming related topics, because the discussion doesn't need to be kept as strictly focussed. So a large part of the problem is that we don't want to have to increase the strictness of moderation here. You get more freedom to discuss real-world stuff.

But the forum isn't the United States. You don't have a constitutional right to say whatever you want with no consequences. It's a private domain, set up to serve a specific purpose, and everyone is allowed in provided they agree to abide by the rules laid out by the site's owner.

In that setting, being allowed the freedom to say what you want is reliant on you taking responsibility for your own actions and behaving yourself.

Or, to quote an old truism: Having the right to say something doesn't automatically mean that you should.

Where OT is concerned, people have been allowed that freedom... and have abused it, time and time again. So that gives the site admin a choice... they can let things go on as they are, they can increase moderation and cut down on everybody's freedom to discuss what they want... or they can simply remove the topics that cause the most problems, and leave people the freedom to discuss the topics that they've shown they can act a little more responsibly over.

This is not a problem caused by lax moderation. This is a problem caused by some posters' complete inability to take some personal responsibility for their own behaviour.

Nothing (so far as I'm aware) has been decided at this point. The poll, I believe, is just Yakface's way of gauging the opinion of the masses. What actually winds up happening is entirely up to him.

But if you want to be able to continue to discuss these topics, I would suggest that it's more likely to be allowed to continue if people take a bit of a look at their own posting habits, and make more of an effort to behave in a way that doesn't require moderation. And as I said, that doesn't just involve not making the troll post in the first place... it's also down to how you respond to such posts.

While I agree with what you mention about any subject becoming sensitive, the issue at forth here was the fact political discussion and religious debate have become so derogatory and inflammatory that we are devoting special focus on the matter at hand: has the rhetoric and mud-slinging gotten so bad on these two topics that we should preclude them henceforth from any debate whatsoever on either subject?

Respect is the name of the game:




But again, we are here because respect was not given on the subjects were are debating to excise from the forums.

We can have the moderators enforce draconian moderation on this forum if we request it, but all we are doing is trying to separate religion and government...from this forum (wow, never would of thought that both would be on the same side).

Respect can be enforced, but first we must contend with the issue of banning certain subjects from this forum.

insaniak wrote:And as I said, that doesn't just involve not making the troll post in the first place... it's also down to how you respond to such posts.

And as many people also stated , they feel if the troll doesnt exist in the first place there is no possible follow up of such responses.

After all , its weird to enforce something as strict as a zero tolerance policy on both parties while not cutting the problem off from its original starting root.

I was wondering when this thread would arise. After wading through 8 and a half pages of heavy thread, I made it here. I see Manchu left around page 4. Good on you.

I'm entirely for keeping P/R on OT.
While every now and then you get REALLY inflammatory posts such as:
"You have to have no feelings or be *insert religious/political viewpoint here* to not care about child molestation"
Most of us are able to keep our religious and political differences out front in the open without hurting others and discuss the matter clearly.

LunaHound wrote:After all , its weird to enforce something as strict as a zero tolerance policy on both parties while not cutting the problem off from its original starting root.

We don't have a zero tolerance policy unless someone is a continual troublemaker... and if the person we're zero tolerancing on is a troublemaker, then the zero tolerance policy is cutting the problem off at the root.

The problem threads (from my prespective) fall into one of 2 categories.

1: The Troll Thread: Deliberatly provocative subjects that are placed purely to get a negative reaction from other users and split the forum in to opposing groups who have views that will never be reconciled. These are primarily the poitical and religious threads. Please note that there have been many fruitful religious and political discussions, but the ones that go bad tend to either start that way or get turned into a trollfest in the first handful of posts.

2: The pointles 'blather' threads. Pure stupidity rolled into a forum post. Has been stamped out at Yakface's request so almost never seen anymore.



The OT forum allows a useful outlet for OT on dakka and stops it springing up elsewhere on the site.
There have been arguements for and against it by the moderation and admin team over the last 3 years, but Yakface has always been on the side of keeping it (why it is still here).

Currently I'm in the camp that thinks it should stay, but due to the stupidity of several users, that has not always been the case.

The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Currently I'm in the camp that thinks it should stay, but due to the stupidity of several users, that has not always been the case.

Then surely the OT should stay and the problem users should be perma-banned? After all, Forums don't post, people do.

Albatross wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Currently I'm in the camp that thinks it should stay, but due to the stupidity of several users, that has not always been the case.

Then surely the OT should stay and the problem users should be perma-banned? After all, Forums don't post, people do.

Agreed, and I think most users would much prefer stronger enforcement of the rules to a ban on the topics that most often cause issues.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The problem threads (from my prespective) fall into one of 2 categories.

1: ... Please note that there have been many fruitful religious and political discussions, but the ones that go bad tend to either start that way or get turned into a trollfest in the first handful of posts..

I don't know, the actual percentage of religious threads that survive the lock have to be incredibly low. I would guess in the single digit low. There have been many religious threads that will go on for dozens of pages, when all of a sudden someone(usually under 100 posts count) will come out of nowhere and start trolling and obviously not reading the entire thread or even remotely aware of the community that has grown around discussing such things.

GG

A couple of month ago a user was asking about what his first bible should be to buy.
Over a dozen members were rolling through a very informative (and fast) discussion regarding the pros and cons of different types, and even the history of their writings/editings to put their historical context and language issues accross.
Then some tool posted the a pic of the necromonicon.
I deleted the pic, PMed the poster, put a warning in the thread to keep trolling out of the thread (something Frazzled has had to do in the Tournament discussion forum today) and the discussion rolled onto its conclusion.

Had I not been active in the thread at the time, several dozen posts would have been made, flamefests ensued and the thread derailed beyond repair.

There are always going to be the tools who love to ruin it for everyone, but I remember a time before I became a moderator wher the longerstanding dakka members took it on themselves to act accordingly.
That doesn't mean to have no personality.
It means to treat a resource which you inevitably devote a goodly portion of your time and energy into with the respect it deserves. To do so make you a better poster, the forum lifts as a whole and everyone wins.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Currently I'm in the camp that thinks it should stay, but due to the stupidity of several users, that has not always been the case.

Then surely the OT should stay and the problem users should be perma-banned? After all, Forums don't post, people do.

Definitely not.

There is a formalised moderator guideline for warnings, punishments, suspensions and bannings.
It escalates to (fairly) set standards.
Minor infringements get more leeway, and usually a warning/PM. Serious infractions get hit with a hammer. However if a poster racks up a heap of minor infractions and then does something bad, their history does not put them in good standing when action is taken.

I honestly cannot recall anyone being banned on a first post, except for spam-bots.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
There are always going to be the tools who love to ruin it for everyone, but I remember a time before I became a moderator wher the longerstanding dakka members took it on themselves to act accordingly.
That doesn't mean to have no personality.
It means to treat a resource which you inevitably devote a goodly portion of your time and energy into with the respect it deserves. To do so make you a better poster, the forum lifts as a whole and everyone wins.

Moderator Explanation Win.

Hey Nightwatch, I've been around the whole time and I still support keeping P&R in the OT and the OT more generally as a bastion of community life here at Dakka. That point has been made especially well by both Malfred and Albatross earlier in this thread. I think it's a shame that loving OT and the sense of community that it fosters (NOT at all fostered by many other parts of this site) are derided, even by Mods as it turns out.

Frazzled, insaniak, and W_G: I know that my original post must seem somewhat humorous to you Mods after the last seven pages or so but the thread is some proof--as other users have already noted--that P&R are not at all the source of the problems in OT. The source of the problems in OT, as these same users have explained time and again, is the same as the source of the problems in YMDC, in P&M, in every other part of Dakka. A ban on P&R topics would do nothing whatsoever to end the problems.

The only result would be a hobbled OT (actually, a truly worthless OT) that would take even more time to moderate because any mention or accusation of mentioning P&R (you can bet often motivated by the same emotions that cause flamewars) will result in a report that will have to be investigated just the same as now. I have often tried to burst the bubble that what is needed is more moderation because that is not strictly true either.

I think what needs to be explained--and maybe only Yakface himself can do this--is why P&R in OT is a subject now. What has changed?

Manchu wrote:Hey Nightwatch, I've been around the whole time and I still support keeping P&R in the OT and the OT more generally as a bastion of community life here at Dakka. That point has been made especially well by both Malfred and Albatross earlier in this thread. I think it's a shame that loving OT and the sense of community that it fosters (NOT at all fostered by many other parts of this site) are derided, even by Mods as it turns out.

Frazzled, insaniak, and W_G: I know that my original post must seem somewhat humorous to you Mods after the last seven pages or so but the thread is some proof--as other users have already noted--that P&R are not at all the source of the problems in OT. The source of the problems in OT, as these same users have explained time and again, is the same as the source of the problems in YMDC, in P&M, in every other part of Dakka. A ban on P&R topics would do nothing whatsoever to end the problems.

The only result would be a hobbled OT (actually, a truly worthless OT) that would take even more time to moderate because any mention or accusation of mentioning P&R (you can bet often motivated by the same emotions that cause flamewars) will result in a report that will have to be investigated just the same as now. I have often tried to burst the bubble that what is needed is more moderation because that is not strictly true either.

I think what needs to be explained--and maybe only Yakface himself can do this--is why P&R in OT is a subject now. What has changed?

Just a possibility, but perhaps Yakface has had it on his mind for quite a while now, from a long time ago, and is just now getting around to having it taken care of. However, so far in the last few days I've seen quite a few threads, none of which are locked thanks to rational discussion. Perhaps if he's in debate about their usefulness, this will help change his mind.

Manchu wrote:I think it's a shame that loving OT and the sense of community that it fosters (NOT at all fostered by many other parts of this site) are derided, even by Mods as it turns out.

Which mods have been deriding people for loving OT?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

This seems derisive to me.

@ Manchu.

I would say that you and I are good examples of how people with differing theological viewpoints can not only treat each other in a cival manner,but actually get along quite well.
Much of my opinions concerning the OT & P&R topics have already been expressed here buy Manchu,Albatross & several others,so the only thing I can add is that I too would hate to see a ban on P&R topics.
Having said that,I will add that in those P&R threads...a little respect will certianly go a long way.

My opinion is, that if you want to talk about Star Trek go to a Star Trek site. If you want to bitch about Politics find any of the appropriate sites to do so in. If you want to talk mini wargaming you come to Dakka.

We are better off without OT forums.

FITZZ wrote:people with differing theological viewpoints can not only treat each other in a cival manner,but actually get along quite well.

This is more common, at least in my personal experience, than it is made out to be. Or maybe it is more common in my experience than it is in other people's experience. Either way, allowing P&R discussion in OT is not what causes trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:If you want to bitch about Politics find any of the appropriate sites to do so in. If you want to talk mini wargaming you come to Dakka.

How about "if you don't want to bitch about Politics, don't bother with OT." I myself don't want to bitch about 40k rules and so keep my nose out of YMDC.

Manchu wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

This seems derisive to me.

But honestly, it's true. I'd say that if you have no interest in the wargaming aspect...there's no real reasoning to come here just for the off topic section.

Kanluwen wrote:But honestly, it's true. I'd say that if you have no interest in the wargaming aspect...there's no real reasoning to come here just for the off topic section.

Well, many people came here for 40k. And then stayed and continue staying for OT. The truth is that most people drift in and out of this expensive and time-consuming hobby. But the users who become friends (as much as possible on the internet, which is a pretty fair degree I think) still want to be together and chat. OT allows them to do that. So they stick with Dakka even when they're between wargaming kicks. And when they find the time/money/will to get back into wargaming, they are still right in the midst of things with their pals.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

This seems derisive to me.

But honestly, it's true. I'd say that if you have no interest in the wargaming aspect...there's no real reasoning to come here just for the off topic section.

Honestly,I belive that most of us that post in OT,even those that do most of our posting in OT,do make use of the other forums (I recall having a few discusions with you concerning Lost & the Damned as well as GW business practices well away from the OT forum),it's just that OT is a bit more relaxed...sort of a place to get to know the person "behind the gamer".

Manchu wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

This seems derisive to me.

If you want to talk ONLY about OT discussions there is a whole world of people out there waiting to hear you speak. There are even internet forums specifically designed to cater to your every OT desire. There are ones that cover everything, and ones that will discuss the changes in the mating habits of the simpson's python through its lifespan.

To come to a wargaming site, ONLY post in the OT forum, ONLY go to the OT forum and then try and wear that as a badge of honor, well, I guess, I guess I don't know what to think. But I'm sure it involves facepalming and the slow shaking of heads.

We are miniature wargamers (primarily 40k) who have the opportunity to discuss OT subjects in a sub forum.

And like I said, I am currently FOR the OT forum. I'm not arguing for it to be torn down. I'm arguing that there is a very small subsect within the dakka community that really need to get out more, and well, get involved in the dakka community.

I do MOST of my posting in the DCM Mosh Pit, where I am free of the restraints of good taste, and (with a very limited number of exceptions) the regular posting rules. It is like OT on steroids, and a hell of alot more enjoyable, especially as the smaller crowd means for more articulated and open conversation.
Currently in the top 5 threads in the forum we are discussing:
Username pronounciations
Swap shop moderation (raised by a DCM, not a moderator)
Hot chicks (A particularly long running thread)
80's man flicks
Getting a new job

If I wasn't a mod would I ONLY post there?
Of course not, I come here (It will be 10 years in under 2 weeks), through my love of the hobby.
OT & the DCM Mosh Pit is a bonus, not the sole reason for my dakka experience..

Well, I came here for the modelling forums for ideas, and while they keep me busy for a bit, the OT is usually where I end my visits. Would I leave if it was gone? No. I beleive in the "Grow a pair or GTFO" mentality. There is really only one person I almost constantly disagree with (and I think he does it on purpose, but hey, thats a topic for another time), but me and Shuma had a good discusion/heated debate/ whatever he wants to call it on American values a while back. I dont begrudge him for anything he has said (as of yet), because its a forum, your going to get people who disagree and think their word is right when its really wrong ( ).

As for the censorship, all I can say is this: Usually, if you start censoring one thing, it leads to another quickly. I'm a huge gamer, and have been to many video gaming forums, and most times mods start getting..... corrupt? and "trigger happy". Not saying that would happen here, just that it might, I dont think I have been around here long enough to accurately depict the mood swings of the mods on here.

As an amusing side story: I was once on a forum where the mods were mostly women, and if you said the wrong thing at the wrong time of the month..... I went through like 4 accounts on that forums.....

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The thing to remember is that dakka is a wargaming site that has an OT forum, not an OT forum that has a wargaming site. If people ONLY come for the OT, they really, really need to get a move on in life.

This seems derisive to me.

But honestly, it's true. I'd say that if you have no interest in the wargaming aspect...there's no real reasoning to come here just for the off topic section.

Honestly,I belive that most of us that post in OT,even those that do most of our posting in OT,do make use of the other forums (I recall having a few discusions with you concerning Lost & the Damned as well as GW business practices well away from the OT forum),it's just that OT is a bit more relaxed...sort of a place to get to know the person "behind the gamer".

I came for painting and modeling, and it's still my favourite part. But I do enjoy participating in OT discussions, particularly those involving religion or politics.