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I drew this sketch a few minutes ago. Do you think is sexist, realistic or just godawful?

I love that. Great job, man!

The 41st millenium is no place for sexy! With the exception of Eldar.

Wiglaf wrote:I draw this sketch a few minutes ago. Do you think is sexist, realistic or just godawful?

It isn't quite "Sexist" per se as that's a fairly complicated label to try and use, especially in this context. It is however far, from free of Male Gaze which is a big part of the overall problems with nerd media in general. You could, certainly do worse I suppose but I'd hardly give it any awards for being a particular spectacular portrayal a female character (Combatant or Otherwise).

Chongara, I'm not sure why this "problem" you keep talking about is really such a problem. In all seriousness.

I agree with Manchu wholeheartedly in that I honestly don't see the problem. As I said before...it's all just eyecandy.

And that's how I'd describe your picture, Wiglaf. Very eye-candylish. Well done!

Manchu wrote:Chongara, I'm not sure why this "problem" you keep talking about is really such a problem. In all seriousness.

Here is a little exercise.

First, picture male combatant in your mind. Any will really do, but a more "Finesse" based one might be a bit better. Play out a little fight scene with him against a male combatant in your head, try and think of some moves that would be really cool for him to bust out. Then, in your mind freeze the frame on what might be a really good shot of him in action.

Where is your point of view originating from for this hypothetical pose?
What is your focus on?
What are the important elements that make him "Cool" to you.
Consider why your focus is where it is, in the context of this scene. Why are those elements important in making him "Cool"


Next, do a quick google image search for "Fencing". Check out how people documenting the sport frame the subjects, and what they choose to emphasize with their camera. Make note of what is taking central stage and consider why that might be the case.

Then, take another look at the sketch of the female eldar warrior I criticized. Consider what is in focus, where the viewpoint is and why that might be.

Then google the term "Male Gaze".

I mean If you think I have exaggerated the size of the boobs or assz and she looks like "check my butt" more than "I´m going to rip your head off before you would even notice I´m here" .

Glad someone like it, I will finish it later anyway.

My opinion on this is such:
I have no problem with models being obviously feminine. If a balance can be struck between that and warlike on new SoB models, then they'll have done a good job.
What I don't want to see is "fanservice armour," i.e. a loincloth and some strips of plating. That's clearly not going to do the job of actually protecting the combatant, is it?
So yeah, feminine but not strippalicious or overly designed to be attractive.

good pic. colour that then post it back up

@Chongara: I understand what you're talking about (thanks for the "lesson" though) but you still haven't told me why this is problematic when it comes to fantasy art aesthetics.

Manchu wrote:@Chongara: I understand what you're talking about (thanks for the "lesson" though) but you still haven't told me why this is problematic when it comes to fantasy art aesthetics.

Like I said Google the Term "Male Gaze". Other, more eloquent and better educated people than me have covered more thoroughly in the first few results than I ever could. If you're aware of those points and still don't think it's problematic, we just don't have any common ground to stand on.



(If you really want my one sentence answer: The sheer volume of it present creates an environment that not only situates the female as the lesser, but also is also contributes to a trend of stale visual and narrative elements)

To be honest, I have yet to see one comic book where Male gaze isn´t present in some degree. Its part of our culture and even female artists are "victims" of it. And the idealization of the masculine beauty is also quite common.

Araenion wrote:

And that's how I'd describe your picture, Wiglaf. Very eye-candylish. Well done!

Thanks!

@Chongara: I think the body of thought you're referring to speaks less to any objective phenomenon itself than to anecdotal experiences that are played out in an intellectual or pseudo-intellectual fashion to establish and preserve pre-existing biases and self-images, which ironically is exactly what it alleges to oppose. I can understand why you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time laying out what you appear to already consider to be the basic facts of gender dynamics but it certainly doesn't make your attempt to foist those arguments (not facts) on others who don't agree with them--whether or not you suspect they have good reasons to disagree--any more convincing.

Manchu wrote:Some of you guys must really hate comic books . . .

I hate the worst comic books, yes. Some so-called "artists" who work on these books SUCK. Rob Liefeld, I'm looking at you. But this isn't a comic book setting. This is a science fiction setting. Where awesome people with awesome powered armor and awesome explosion-causing guns go around killing berserking green mushroom men and immortal robot zombies.

I want the armor to look a bit more awesome, and a bit less "meh, let's just put boobs on it and call it a day".

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:Some of you guys must really hate comic books . . .

I hate the worst comic books, yes.

I hate the worst comic books, too. And that sums up a big problem in this discussion.

Also, you might think that banshee pic is sexy but there might be a dude inside

I'm cool with that.

Wikipedia says something along the lines of "Male Gaze is when stuff like books, comics or movies concentrate their focal point of view too long (who determines what is too long?) on the curves of a female body" or something. And obviously (?), this leads to objectification and all this makes women lesser beings that can't make decisions for themselves.

I'll have to say, I'm thoroughly confused by the line of reasoning and the more I looked into it the less I understood what they were talking about. But I guess we should drop this topic anyway because it attracks threadlocks, methinks.

The reason objectification is much reviled is because in societies where women are thought of as nothing more than sexual playthings, bad things tend to happen to women.

Melissia wrote:Also, you might think that banshee pic is sexy but there might be a dude inside

If I think it's sexy and there's a dude inside...well, then...that dude has a nice bum.

Honestly, I think people exaggerate a problem with admiring a female form in art or fiction. What's wrong with that? Melissia here seems to wish for more effort to be made instead of half-arsed corset strapped over the armor to make them look female. To that, I heartily agree. I can only praise how they modeled Eldar Banshees, they actually look quite like the lithe and deadly killers that they're made out to be.

To me, a purposeful lack of feminine figure in fiction would stand out more than it does now with clearly exaggerated anime figures. And it'd be unfair to say it only caters to the male audience. When was the last time you saw a fictional hero(especially in Anime) that didn't have impeccable manly figure? There is a balance to be made there, somewhere in between the realism and free-form expression. To me, Lelith Hesperax is a good miniature because it doesn't seem to be trying to look tomboyish, but still fits the image of a brutish gladiator champion and a ruthless killer. Not because she has taped down boobs.


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Witzkatz wrote:Wikipedia says something along the lines of "Male Gaze is when stuff like books, comics or movies concentrate their focal point of view too long (who determines what is too long?) on the curves of a female body" or something.

Too long is when it stops being tasteful. To say a woman character in a novel has a nice figure is an observation of the author that leaves the reader with the obvious image of a pretty woman. That's hardly objectification in the modern sense of the word. Now, when the author starts describing the size of her nipples, that's when it gets creepy. And honestly, it's better to leave certain things to imagination, than bluntly shove it into the reader(or viewer)'s face.

A disclaimer: I'm still recovering from Papa Nurgle's visit. Bear with me as I rant.


There is more to women than TnA, though you couldn't tell from looking at sci-fi sometimes, or fantasy artwork, or miniatures/wargaming. And bringing it up often causes near-violent reactions from some men, because how dare someone desire a female character who isn't there just to titillate the reader/viewer with their sex appeal!

Obviously such a thing does not exist and is not at all interesting. It is quite clear that no man wants a woman whose primary assets are her intelligence and skill rather than her physical appearance, and anyone who says otherwise is completely and utterly wrong. And since female characters can never be interesting and deep characters with a multitude of motivations and complex ideals, there's no point of having them be anything but eye candy.

Apparently, it's a crime to some people for anyone to think that women, too, can be warriors, or soldiers, or philosophers, or leaders, or anything other than someone's ****toy waiting to happen. Hell, sometimes these people think it's a crime for women to be interested in wargaming at all. Suffice it to say that I cannot express my opinion on that belief without violating a few of the forum's rules.

Aren´t you overreacting a bit?

There is no reason to be all that you´re saying AND look good (or atleast care about it) at the same time. That reveals a true complex personality. And the women, both fictional and real, both smart and unintelligent that merely focus their efforts in their sex-appeal to achieve their aims aren´t scarce.

Fantasy you talk about is tacky and watered down with cheap sex appeal. But look at LotR. Tolkien made no excuses for women not being warriors in his world, yet he also made Eowyn, that defies that rule and gets away with it. Tolkien admires her strength of character and her will, even as he tells the readers of her beauty. That, to me, is good writing.

If GW could achieve this with their miniatures, would it still be objectification in your eyes?

The reason objectification is much reviled is because in societies where women are thought of as nothing more than sexual playthings, bad things tend to happen to women.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that objectification is okay. It is not. I was only wondering where the direct connection was between films that might look at a woman's curve a bit longer and direct objectification.

Too long is when it stops being tasteful. To say a woman character in a novel has a nice figure is an observation of the author that leaves the reader with the obvious image of a pretty woman. That's hardly objectification in the modern sense of the word. Now, when the author starts describing the size of her nipples, that's when it gets creepy. And honestly, it's better to leave certain things to imagination, than bluntly shove it into the reader(or viewer)'s face.

Chongara said that the nice drawing of the Banshee further up already suffered from male gaze. And I don't know about you people, but having that slight focus on her butt is FAR away from describing the size of her nipples or anything like that. If she'd be in a real sexual pose I'd understand and go conform with the point, but she's just sprinting towards the enemy, not...well, use your own imagination of whatever.

A question to the general female public...are movies like Tomb Raider bad and too male-gazed, too? I mean, obivously there's a lot of eye candy for guys, but it has a female protagonist that the whole story revolves around and that definitely makes decisions and has more aspects to her than just TnA, in my opinion. Or are movies like that still sexist?

Tomb Raider in general is pretty much all about sex appeal to me... they designed the character around it, they focus on it almost exclusively for advertisement, and so on... it's not really a good example, I think. Tomb Raider is basically the Duke Nukem of its genre. And yes, Duke Nukem has the same issue, and the exceptions to his manly power of manliness (he likes to wear bright pink shirts, and he watches Oprah) are done for laughs rather than as serious traits, and are quickly forgotten about afterwards (I doubt many people remember those anyway).

Mind you, I actually enjoyed Duke Nukem (interpreting him as a more comedic character than a serious one), whereas I did not enjoy Tomb Raider.

Wiglaf wrote: you´re saying AND look good (or atleast care about it) at the same time.

Who are you responding to anyway? I certainly didn't say that.

All sisters should look like Frances Bavier did during the 60's. Problem solved.

kronk wrote:I don't find any of these sexy. The breastplate with actual breasts designed in is silly.



The Madonna "Vogue" video inspired pointies on the following is also silly.



A cosplayer wearing this would be Hot. If it's not a dude.



This is Aunt Bea from Mayberry. She is not hot.



Honestly, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Some people find certain things attractive, while others are repulsed by it. Also, certain things are unintentionally "sexy", for lack of a better term. Again, it takes all kinds, right?

The following is an example of unintentionally sexy armor:



The following is an example of intentionally sexy armor:

Their boobs need space to breath though.


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This art looks better then the new lelith that is well...a man in a womans body!

My girlfriend likes the current models, but thinks the new ones should be sexier.

M.

Tomb Raider in general is pretty much all about sex appeal to me... they designed the character around it, they focus on it almost exclusively for advertisement, and so on... it's not really a good example, I think. Tomb Raider is basically the Duke Nukem of its genre. And yes, Duke Nukem has the same issue, and the exceptions to his manly power of manliness (he likes to wear bright pink shirts, and he watches Oprah) are done for laughs rather than as serious traits, and are quickly forgotten about afterwards (I doubt many people remember those anyway).

Mind you, I actually enjoyed Duke Nukem (interpreting him as a more comedic character than a serious one), whereas I did not enjoy Tomb Raider.

Yeah, Duke Nukem is definitely more comedic than serious to me, too. God, I loved those games.

I guess I can understand what you say about Tomb Raider. Her boob size in some of the games was ridiculous anyway. However, let's take another movie, because I just thought of something...what about the Transporter movies? Jason Statham fighting in several stages of being undressed/oiled up? That's definitely eye candy for the girls, if I've ever seen any. So I'm not sure if this "caterign" is so very one-sided. And if it's not completely one-sided, is it still bad?