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Cadaver wrote:

warboss wrote:

You can still run Bezerkers without Kharn as they fill up an elite slot instead (and one as a troops choice with a generic non-special general)... they don't just disappear according to these rumors. Pretty much everyone I've seen over the past 3 editions of 40k playing that has had a chaos god themed army has also had the special character that goes along with it as part of their collection. The majority of existing chaos god themed players won't have to buy a special character if this is true. This issue people have with Special Characters unlocking units in different categories isn't as big of a deal as people make. Frankly, this past codex was the aberration as it had all the god themed units as troops whereas previously IIRC they were usually in other slots until moved by an HQ's choice of marks. I suspect people will be able to take various marks on normal chaos marines as well as being able to take the legion specific god-dedicated units.

I had at one point nearly 10,000 points of Death Guard and I did not own Typhus, nor did I ever run a "counts as" Typhus. The fact is, I did not want that character in my army, and I didn't want a Terminator armor model running with my power armor dudes. I should be allowed to run a Death Guard army led by a sorcerer or daemon prince or Chaos lord.

LOL... if you're going to claim something to refute another poster in an effort to get your point across, you really should make sure that people can't fact check your statements with the press of a few buttons. Thanks to Lego for getting dakka search to work! I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you didn't mean to blatantly lie but instead just forgot about the below since you had a 10k army.

Cadaver wrote:It's been awhile. I almost let the whole month of June slip by without an update. I just couldn't let that happen. So I've been hard at work all week painting a few characters. The daemon prince got a new head not too long ago and I built a Sorcerer in Terminator armor based of the Typhus model. The head is from the WFB Dark Emissary with the horns cut off.

The Sorcerer:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/209451.page#320181

Cadaver wrote:For those of you who follow my project log you know I've been reworking my Death Guard army with loads of Forgeworld goodies and theming it as an early post heresy force, about 1,000 years after the Horus Heresy.

I have a 2,000 point list that takes some liberties with this theme in regards to units, such as using Obliterators. In addition to that list I wanted to come up with a more pure Death Guard list that holds to the classic tactics and units used by the Death Guard.


HQ

Typhus - 225

Elites

Terminators(4) - 175

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/225196.page#486691

Despite your claims to the contrary, you both owned the model AND planned at one point to use him in your army, thus putting you in the same category of people with cult specific armies including characters that I've met in person. Are there some people with cult armies without the special characters in their collections? Sure, but in my experience they make up a minority of the players. "Requiring" a special character (and I put that in quotes as the proposed rumors don't require them but instead just increase access to the already available cult troops) any kind of financial imposition on the majority of chaos cult players. For those that don't own them, adding a single figure (even with the crappy casted finecast price increase included) is not a large monetary imposition if they already own the army. Does it take up points? Sure, but that wasn't my point.

Chaos players have had over 5 years to realize that special characters now unlock additional slots for units... plenty of time to get over it and not expect a magical change contrary to the trend of the past 6 codices.

If anything, the nixing of dreadnoughts without a reasonable stand-in fascimile would indeed be an imposition on chaos players as it would invalidate an existing model.

have to say, even though I'm in the opposite camp, that was a pretty epic takedown

Charax wrote:have to say, even though I'm in the opposite camp, that was a pretty epic takedown

Wow. That was pretty epic

warboss wrote:

LOL... if you're going to claim something to refute another poster in an effort to get your point across, you really should make sure that people can't fact check your statements with the press of a few buttons. Thanks to Lego for getting dakka search to work! I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you didn't mean to blatantly lie but instead just forgot about the below since you had a 10k army.

Congratulations, of the numerous models I've purchased, I managed to forget I had the Typhus model, which was converted to a sorcerer and once wrote a list that included Typhus and posted it online.

I can tell you I never once actually fielded Typhus using his rules, and if you look around I'm sure you can pull up plenty of lists I wrote for Orks and Daemons, despite having never played them either.

I'm not sure how any of that disregards the fact that Legion players shouldn't be forced to use Special Characters. I could care less about the cost of having to purchase a specific character model. Chaos is already so restricted in regards to Legions the last thing we need is more restriction. Hopefully in future discussion you can simply address the larger point I was making instead of digging through 4 year old posts to try and invalidate my point by proving that I once owned a model I simply forgot about owning.


Also, have you considered a career as a political pundit?

aka_mythos wrote:

Arm.chair.general wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:Sooo no Dreads, a mechanical dragon and traitor guard rules in...

Yeah, not buying this. Sounds one part pure dumb, one part smoking asbestos joints and one part wishful thinking...

Do people actually "read"?... no "dreads" just a nearly identical unit of a different name.

Either way its still dumb, Chaos have always had Dreadnoughts.

No it isn't dumb... Especially if its a much more inclusive unit to allow the use upgrades to make some the dreadnought-like but not strictly speaking "dreadnought" units. of GW wants to have for example the blood-slaughterer in the same entry as the old "dreadnought" it isn't appropriate to call that new unit entry a "dreadnought".

Dreadnoughts are one of the iconic units of chaos space marines as well as space marines, there are a tonne of Dreadnoughts on forgeworld and we already have the decimator and defiler, so getting rid of chaos Dreadnoughts is stupid.

Cadaver wrote:
I'm not sure how any of that disregards the fact that Legion players should be forced to use Special Characters. I could care less about the cost of having to purchase a specific character model. Chaos is already so restricted in regards to Legions the last thing we need is more restriction. Hopefully in future discussion you can simply address the larger point I was making instead of digging through 4 year old posts to try and invalidate my point by proving that I once owned a model I simply forgot about owning.

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

You know that they probably have dreadnoughts but they will be called:
Plague-noughts
Lust-noughts
Sorcery-noughts
Blood-noughts

I struggle just a little with the difficulty in applying imagination to named HQ units in an imaginary game built around using our imaginations.

I think it will be cool if the book lets you use Marks to determine Legion troops.

If it doesn't, and requires named character selection, join the Legions of 40k players who already have to basically do the same thing, apply your imagination, and get creative with conversions.

What I'm saying is - I FULLY understand and even empathize with the frustration, just ... don't freak out; it'll be a-ok. The fluff of 40k is completely made-up, as are the names of the characters, as are all the rules. Nothing prevents you making up character names and model designs in return to create a more unique feel and get away from your HQ choice looking like other peoples' HQ choice.


Thing is, if I want to do Flight of the Eisenstein Death Guard using the new rules, I will model Nathaniel Garro and use the rules for Typhus if I have to, and what's super cool is everyone I've ever played with, and every tournament I've ever attended (both a very high number of players/tournaments), will be totally cool with me doing this ... as long as I make Garro unique looking enough that people aren't going to mix the model up in play. The use of him "as" rules-Typhus is as kosher as it gets, b/c nothing in the game is real in the first place, and cool modeling/fluff trumps strict rules application basically ... always. Would I like for my Garro not to have rules that reflect Terminator Armor and Manreaper and Nurgle's Rot by building him out of a base Chaos Lord? Sure would! Could I just as readily take a Lord also, model HIM as Garro, and have the Typhus inclusion be my "buddy of Garro, modeled in bulky Mk3 armor and counts-as Typhus" instead? Sure can!

I totally get the irritation, just not the DEGREE of it ... chillax, use thy imagination (that's what we're all doing when we play anyway, right?), and have fun. Chaos and pre-heresy lovers are about to get tons of new models and brand spanking new rules to go along with a brand spanking new edition. Hooray!

Cruentus wrote:
Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Imagine having all space marine chapters in a single codex to represent all the different chapters with a single special character for each chapter. Then imagine that character is the only way to allow you to build that force how they are described in 20+ years of background. Its kind of like that. Even space marines can take a captain on a bike to unlock bikes as troops. It's not too much to ask for marks to unlock cult troops. I'm not arguing the format of characters used to move FOCs for units isn't a valid method, it just doesn't have to be so restrictive it limits Legions to a single viable build.

I might be able to see where GW might be going if said rumors are true.

1: Chaos pretty much getting a Dreadknight equivalent

My thought and this is based on GK's alone is that GW wants to have a more combat looking robot and a more shooty looking robot. I mean the dreadnought is pure win on shooty so much that no one that I know of really plays a CC oriented GK dreadnaught and the Dreadknight is almost always geared for CC

2. They are prepping to make Chaos Daemons a more army of themselves. Removing the Daemons from Chaos armies make it more of a "pure" faction to play. Where as Chaos legions will be just tainted humans with chaos powers but still rely heavily on their "human" technology.

3. Unlocking choices as troops or making you take a SC for a unit is not unheard of now and is most likely how everything is going to go from now on. It does Force you to take a 'themed' army but it does do what GW does best and guide (albeit with a forceful hand) to sell models. It works well with GK. So there is not to say that it doesn't mean that there isn't hope that the SC isn't so point costly. I hate to again point to GK but inquisitors don't cost very much and are required for henchmen. Could be the same for Chaos.

Anyways that's my 2 cents

MVBrandt wrote:What I'm saying is - I FULLY understand and even empathize with the frustration, just ... don't freak out; it'll be a-ok. The fluff of 40k is completely made-up, as are the names of the characters, as are all the rules. Nothing prevents you making up character names and model designs in return to create a more unique feel and get away from your HQ choice looking like other peoples' HQ choice.

This x 1000.

Cadaver wrote:

Cruentus wrote:
Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Imagine having all space marine chapters in a single codex to represent all the different chapters with a single special character for each chapter. Then imagine that character is the only way to allow you to build that force how they are described in 20+ years of background. Its kind of like that. Even space marines can take a captain on a bike to unlock bikes as troops. It's not too much to ask for marks to unlock cult troops. I'm not arguing the format of characters used to move FOCs for units isn't a valid method, it just doesn't have to be so restrictive it limits Legions to a single viable build.

In the fluff none of the four major cult troops still form armies of their own though. It's an extreme rarity, they're primarily supplemental to marines that are marked or chosen in some way. The only legion that still has the numbers and demeanor to form armies purely of it's own are the death guard, the rest have been fractured heavily in some way. It was never particularly fluffy to have an entire army formed out of noise marines or berserkers. You'll still be able to have an army with those troops in it as a generic or marked commander, nothing is stopping you from taking 60 berserkers out of the elites choice. They just won't be troops (which theoretically won't be as hugely important in sixth anyway).

I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

MVBrandt wrote:I struggle just a little with the difficulty in applying imagination to named HQ units in an imaginary game built around using our imaginations.

I think it will be cool if the book lets you use Marks to determine Legion troops.

If it doesn't, and requires named character selection, join the Legions of 40k players who already have to basically do the same thing, apply your imagination, and get creative with conversions.

What I'm saying is - I FULLY understand and even empathize with the frustration, just ... don't freak out; it'll be a-ok. The fluff of 40k is completely made-up, as are the names of the characters, as are all the rules. Nothing prevents you making up character names and model designs in return to create a more unique feel and get away from your HQ choice looking like other peoples' HQ choice.

I have no problem getting creative with conversions. I have no problem in theory with special characters changing FOC, I have no problem overlooking aspects of the fluff to shape my army the way I want it. The models can look as different as possible, but that still doesn't change the fact that as a Death Guard player I have essentially 1 army list available to play my legion.

Although you are right about not freaking out about it. Rumormongers on other forums are already calling BoK rumors fake or high mis-representative at the least, and stunt to draw website views. It's not like I'm going to rage quit over this or anything, but I do think it's a cop out and a lazy way for GW to represent legions.

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

Cadaver wrote:Although you are right about not freaking out about it. Rumormongers on other forums are already calling BoK rumors fake or high mis-representative at the least, and stunt to draw website views. It's not like I'm going to rage quit over this or anything, but I do think it's a cop out and a lazy way for GW to represent legions.

I return to my thought that we need to have a sticky post with the accuracy percentages of all known rumormongers in N&R. Would help prevent some of these shenanigans.

Palindrome wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

We're years into counts-as land anyway. I'm doing it, you're doing it, everyones doing it. It's an unfortunate design choice but it was pretty inevitable given the last few codexes.

LoneLictor wrote:I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

Incorrect.

Typhus is still with the Death Guard. He is most certainly not an outcast.

Ahriman, Kharn, and Fabius Bile most certainly are outcasts.

Cadaver wrote:
I'm not sure how any of that disregards the fact that Legion players shouldn't be forced to use Special Characters. I could care less about the cost of having to purchase a specific character model. Chaos is already so restricted in regards to Legions the last thing we need is more restriction. Hopefully in future discussion you can simply address the larger point I was making instead of digging through 4 year old posts to try and invalidate my point by proving that I once owned a model I simply forgot about owning.


Also, have you considered a career as a political pundit?

Nope, no politics for me. As for digging up 4 year old posts, you probably shouldn't claim stuff that isn't true in the first place instead of getting huffy about someone proving you wrong. It took me less time to disprove your claims than it has to type out the previous two sentances. Click on your name, click on search posts, type typhus, viola!

As for addressing the larger point, I did that too initially. You're wrong in claiming that you're "forced" to use special characters. According to the (probably only partly correct if that) rumors, you can take cult troops as elite choices as well as a single troops choice per generic HQ (ala orks). If getting to take 30-100 cult troops (assuming squad sizes of up to 20) without being "forced" to use a special character isn't enough of a choice, I don't frankly know what is. SC unlocking different force org slots is the de facto standard for the past half decade... you may not like it (and you have every right to not as it is simply a preference/opinion) but there is no chance in hell that you should be suprised by it. The fluff even supports the idea indirectly. After 10,000 years, the only thing keeping those original legions together in most cases is a strong personality (like a special character). (yes, yes, blah, time in the warp flows differently, only a few centuries, blah... point remains the same)

pretre wrote:

Charax wrote:have to say, even though I'm in the opposite camp, that was a pretty epic takedown

Wow. That was pretty epic.

LOL, thanks. Every once in a while I get cranky enough by a statement that I suspect is false that I try to disprove it. My last one was a guy who claimed to leak rumors about the valkyrie or somesuch but only had 50 some posts to his username... not hard to disprove that one either. He then claimed to have previously posted it under a different concurrent account (which broke dakka's rules as I pointed out). Some people just keep digging...

pretre wrote:You know that they probably have dreadnoughts but they will be called:
Plague-noughts
Lust-noughts
Sorcery-noughts
Blood-noughts

Actually, something related to this worries me the most. What will the 500% overused term be for units/equipment/rules in the chaos codex? Obviously wolf lords riding thunderwolves while wearing wolf talismans was a previous one (along with "blood" for the sons of sanguinius). Spikey? Chaos? Dark? Warp?

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

Incorrect.

Typhus is still with the Death Guard. He is most certainly not an outcast.

We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

We're years into counts-as land anyway. I'm doing it, you're doing it, everyones doing it. It's an unfortunate design choice but it was pretty inevitable given the last few codexes.

I'm not doing it as it happens and simply because there is a precedent for something doesn't mean that it can't be changed.

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

Incorrect.

Typhus is still with the Death Guard. He is most certainly not an outcast.

We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

Then I'd say that none of the Death Guard are "True Death Guard", as Mortarion seemingly goes to war accompanied by Daemons.

That said:
Mortarion doesn't seem to leave his little demense too often.
Typhus is usually outside of the Eye of Terror and is always accompanied by a host of Death Guard aboard the Terminus Est.

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

Incorrect.

Typhus is still with the Death Guard. He is most certainly not an outcast.

We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

I don't think it was ever said that Typhus was in charge of the whole thing. He's in charge of a Plague Fleet (including the Terminus Est, the Death Guard flagship) and leads a detachment of Death Guard marines. I imagine he has the blessing of Mortarion to spread Nurgle's pestilence.

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I don't wanna get Typhus for my Death Guard army because Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

I'll just have a Daemon Prince count as Typhus.

Incorrect.

Typhus is still with the Death Guard. He is most certainly not an outcast.

We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

Then I'd say that none of the Death Guard are "True Death Guard", as Mortarion seemingly goes to war accompanied by Daemons.

That said:
Mortarion doesn't seem to leave his little demense too often.
Typhus is usually outside of the Eye of Terror and is always accompanied by a host of Death Guard aboard the Terminus Est.

By that logic, Ahriman is still part of the Thousand Sons because he brought some with him and left the eye of Terror.

Secondly, Mortarion still leads the Death Guard. He's alive, he owns the homeworld of the Death Guard, and he launches attacks from it.

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Belial is a very customizable SC however. He can take everything a standard DA terminator marshal can take.

LoneLictor wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote: We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

Then I'd say that none of the Death Guard are "True Death Guard", as Mortarion seemingly goes to war accompanied by Daemons.

That said:
Mortarion doesn't seem to leave his little demense too often.
Typhus is usually outside of the Eye of Terror and is always accompanied by a host of Death Guard aboard the Terminus Est.

By that logic, Ahriman is still part of the Thousand Sons because he brought some with him and left the eye of Terror.

That logic is not the same as what was being proposed. You'll notice that my reply was to an idea that because Mortarion leads the Death Guard, Typhus is somehow an outcast.
We have nothing(at least that I can think of readily) to suggest that Typhus is at odds with Mortarion like Magnus and Ahriman. In fact, we have the opposite with Typhus retaining his Death Guard ties and acting as the "Herald of Nurgle" following the path that Mortarion seemingly approves of.

Secondly, Mortarion still leads the Death Guard. He's alive, he owns the homeworld of the Death Guard, and he launches attacks from it.

I'm aware he's alive. I'm also aware that he is the de facto leader still.

My statement, however, was that he is not commonly found leading the Astartes. He commonly leads Daemonic forces.

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote: We may be splitting hairs here, but if you consider Mortarion to be the leader of the Death Guard still, I don't think Typhus would then still be considered True Death Guard!

Then I'd say that none of the Death Guard are "True Death Guard", as Mortarion seemingly goes to war accompanied by Daemons.

That said:
Mortarion doesn't seem to leave his little demense too often.
Typhus is usually outside of the Eye of Terror and is always accompanied by a host of Death Guard aboard the Terminus Est.

By that logic, Ahriman is still part of the Thousand Sons because he brought some with him and left the eye of Terror.

That logic is not the same as what was being proposed. You'll notice that my reply was to an idea that because Mortarion leads the Death Guard, Typhus is somehow an outcast.
We have nothing(at least that I can think of readily) to suggest that Typhus is at odds with Mortarion like Magnus and Ahriman. In fact, we have the opposite with Typhus retaining his Death Guard ties and acting as the "Herald of Nurgle" following the path that Mortarion seemingly approves of.

Nope. Here's a quote from the 2nd 3rd Edition Chaos Codex. It hasn't been contradicted by anything, so its still canon.

"In the Eye of Terror Mortarion shaped his Daemon World to resemble Barbarus. Typhus was sickened by the sentimentality. His loyalty was to Nurgle and Nurgle waxed strong when mortals feared death. Taking his ship and his followers, Typhus returned again and again to the mortal realm and the legend of the traveller, the Herald of Nurgle was born. The rewards granted him by Nurgle are testament to a score of blighted worlds and countless damned souls."

That suggests pretty clearly that Typhus is at odds with Mortarion

Wait wait I think I got it figured out

GK dreadKNIGHT
Chaos DRAGON

Get it?
Bahahahahaha sorry just hit me

Is anyone else thinking this possible Mech Dragon might make a good counts as C'tan?

It suggests that he disagreed with something Mortarion did, not that he is "at odds with Mortarion" to the extent of him no longer being Death Guard.

Check p.55 of the current C: CSM book. The specifics as to why Typhus travels the stars are not in there; your statement has been contradicted by the simple fact that it is not in the current incarnation of his fluff.

So again, I say he is not an outcast from the Legion.

Edit note:
I will say this also:
It, I guess, is based upon what you define as an "outcast". We do not know if he left after fighting with Mortarion, was banished, etc. Until we have something saying that he's not welcome on the Plague Planet, I'd lean more towards it simply being a difference of opinion.