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Palindrome wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

We're years into counts-as land anyway. I'm doing it, you're doing it, everyones doing it. It's an unfortunate design choice but it was pretty inevitable given the last few codexes.

I'm not doing it as it happens and simply because there is a precedent for something doesn't mean that it can't be changed.

Then don't do it. It's not like your anonymous silent protest will do anything aside from be a consistent annoyance to you and the people around you.

The more I think about it, the less these rumors makes sense. If they are true, it would indicate all other rumors so far are potentially false.

Prior to this we've been told we can expect more daemon engines, better Chosen, Possessed that can choose abilities, also mention of units like Brazen Knights(Berserkers on juggernauts).

Keeping this in mind, we are to assume the elites would contain:

Chosen
Terminators
Possessed
Dreadnoughts or potentially if dreadnoughts will be changed - a larger classification of walker sized daemon engine
Brazen Knights
Plague Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Rubric Marines
Noise Marines

And troops will consist of:

Chaos Space Marines
Cultists/Traitor Guard

That's real top heavy on the Elites and unnecessarily light on troops. I find that really hard to believe.

Kanluwen wrote:It suggests that he disagreed with something Mortarion did, not that he is "at odds with Mortarion" to the extent of him no longer being Death Guard.

Check p.55 of the current C: CSM book. The specifics as to why Typhus travels the stars are not in there; your statement has been contradicted by the simple fact that it is not in the current incarnation of his fluff.

So again, I say he is not an outcast from the Legion.

So its not canon anymore because it wasn't mentioned in the most recent Codex?

If you honestly think that (and I hope you don't) then I ain't gunna respond to your posts no more, because that is, as a great man once said, whickity whack.

Cadaver wrote:The more I think about it, the less these rumors makes sense. If they are true, it would indicate all other rumors so far are potentially false.

Prior to this we've been told we can expect more daemon engines, better Chosen, Possessed that can choose abilities, also mention of units like Brazen Knights(Berserkers on juggernauts).

Keeping this in mind, we are to assume the elites would contain:

Chosen
Terminators
Possessed
Dreadnoughts or potentially if dreadnoughts will be changed - a larger classification of walker sized daemon engine
Brazen Knights
Plague Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Rubric Marines
Noise Marines

And troops will consist of:

Chaos Space Marines
Cultists/Traitor Guard

That's real top heavy on the Elites and unnecessarily light on troops. I find that really hard to believe.

The top heavy nature you listed has been done before and luckily doesn't negate a competitive codex design (especially once you include the 4 additional units that are moved from elite to troops via SC).

Space Wolves Elite: Wolfguard, Dreads, Ven Dreads, Lone Wolf, Wolf Scouts, Wolf Priests
Space Wolf Troops: Grey Hunters, Blood Claws

The SW modular design was actually used by several chaos players and the joke a few years ago was that the SW were more chaosy than the chaos codex. It can be done well but that is admittedly a big if.

His Master's Voice wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:GW now has an established history of dropping failed units and replacing them with units that are the same concept but with new rules as a simple way of fixing the defficiencies of a unit... this is no different.

Did they ever drop a unit that has been in the game for, well, forever?

"Space Marine Veterans"... there is no longer a unit called that. They have been in every prior space marine codex. The notion of what that unit represents still exists but that unit as proper noun does not.

Hell, this has a strong parallel to when GW started calling the "Eldar Dreadnought" the "Wraithlord."

GW is trying to make things easier and prevent confusion, by calling them Lychguard as opposed to Pariahs it allows GW to change their rules more drastically and avoid the confusions of "My mistake, that's what Pariah used to do". It allows them to change the theme and adjust the concept of a unit. The Chaos Dreadnought, would forever be limited by the loyalist space marine notion of a Dreadnought as long as GW called it a "dreadnought".

Hypothetically if GW wants to make them a single more daemonic unit entry they don't want them restricted to the notion of a walker with AV12/12/10 and some combination of twin-linked weapon and DCCW; by changing the name of the unit it allows them to cover more divergent concepts... You can have a unit as different from a standard loyalist dreadnought as FW's Contemptor or even the Blood Slaughterer or heck maybe even something like the blight drone. This is just a hypothetical example but something like the blight drone, a flying dreadnought-ish unit might be too laughable until you remove the moniker of it being a "dreadnought."

I'm not making a judgement call on IF the results are good, just that I believe GW's standard rationale for this type of move is a good one.

Ok, I speculated this on Warseer as well, but as I'm sure many of you don't read it, then I'll do the same here.

Firstly, we don't know anything about these new 'Elite' Cult troops, nor do we know anything about what the Marks of Chaos do. Is it possible that taking a unit of CSM and giving them a Mark of Chaos will result in a unit more like what we currently recognise as a 'Cult' unit, and that the Elite unit is more like a better version of that? Similar to the way that Chosen are a better version of unmarked/undivided CSM?

Second, there was a rumour (or at least speculation) that Cult Terminators might actually just be an upgrade for Cult units. If that's the case, then this rumour makes more sense and it wouldn't require any FOC shuffling for the Terminator upgrade. I could actually see Terminators being an upgrade for Chosen, and Cult Terminators (and Brazen Knights, for that matter) being an upgrade for Cult units.

So maybe it will still be very possible to create a recognisable Cult Legion army with just using Marks of Chaos, more like the 3.5 codex.

Thoughts?

Cadaver wrote:The more I think about it, the less these rumors makes sense. If they are true, it would indicate all other rumors so far are potentially false.

Prior to this we've been told we can expect more daemon engines, better Chosen, Possessed that can choose abilities, also mention of units like Brazen Knights(Berserkers on juggernauts).

Keeping this in mind, we are to assume the elites would contain:

Chosen
Terminators
Possessed
Dreadnoughts or potentially if dreadnoughts will be changed - a larger classification of walker sized daemon engine
Brazen Knights
Plague Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Rubric Marines
Noise Marines

And troops will consist of:

Chaos Space Marines
Cultists/Traitor Guard

That's real top heavy on the Elites and unnecessarily light on troops. I find that really hard to believe.

Dreadnoughts/Daemon engines could concievibly be shoved back into the Heavy slot, while the Brazen Knights are purely speculative at best, fanboy wishlisting most likely! Removed those two options and now we have 7 possible Elites options which isn't totally out the realms of possibility.

Most armies are lite on the Troops section anyways, as aside from the current CSM 'dex, I think only BA's, Eldar & Daemons have more than 2 options before FOC swaping characters come into play? 2 options seems to be the average for the Troops section, while a couple armies, (DA/Templars/Sisters), only have 1 choice!

The distinct lack of News or Rumors about really anything means this thread is now on Lock Watch.

Maybe the next one someone opens would be better suited for 40K General, as these things quickly become wishlisting and speculation filled...

All I want to know is, should I stop painting the like 1500 points worth of chaos marines a deep crimson color? Cuz dangit, I love Word Bearers after reading the novels, so I want ruthless religious zealots running around in crimson space suits!!

Cheexsta wrote:Ok, I speculated this on Warseer as well, but as I'm sure many of you don't read it, then I'll do the same here.

Firstly, we don't know anything about these new 'Elite' Cult troops, nor do we know anything about what the Marks of Chaos do. Is it possible that taking a unit of CSM and giving them a Mark of Chaos will result in a unit more like what we currently recognise as a 'Cult' unit, and that the Elite unit is more like a better version of that? Similar to the way that Chosen are a better version of unmarked/undivided CSM?

Second, there was a rumour (or at least speculation) that Cult Terminators might actually just be an upgrade for Cult units. If that's the case, then this rumour makes more sense and it wouldn't require any FOC shuffling for the Terminator upgrade. I could actually see Terminators being an upgrade for Chosen, and Cult Terminators (and Brazen Knights, for that matter) being an upgrade for Cult units.

So maybe it will still be very possible to create a recognisable Cult Legion army with just using Marks of Chaos, more like the 3.5 codex.

Thoughts?

That's far too reasonable of a thought and has no place on the frenzied rumor boards of Dakka!!
I fully agree with you though, and I'm still looking forward to it. I have a bunch of OOP Noise Marines asking to take the line again (if my dice rolls ever improve again-they used to be REALLY good, now I can't roll above a 1 or a 2 to save my life).

And Alphy, I think you should move this to discussion...as that's all we're doing now: discussin'.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

We're years into counts-as land anyway. I'm doing it, you're doing it, everyones doing it. It's an unfortunate design choice but it was pretty inevitable given the last few codexes.

I'm not doing it as it happens and simply because there is a precedent for something doesn't mean that it can't be changed.

Then don't do it. It's not like your anonymous silent protest will do anything aside from be a consistent annoyance to you and the people around you.

Now if that wasn't trolling I don't know what is.

My silent protest as you call it does damage GW in a very real way.,I simply don't buy anything from them. A drop in the ocean perhaps but an ocean is made from drops.

Bad games design will not make me want to play GW games, it really can't get any simpler. On that note I shall leave you to your self important sniping,

Will Huron Blackheart unlock the Traitorguard or will Alpha Legion do that? If there are no new characters, who else could with established fluff?

Oh and Word Bearers. Night Lords too from more recent fluff.

Who would Cypher unlock?

Palindrome wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

Why not? Deathwing players have to take Belial, and the list goes on. Its the nature of the game nowadays that special characters end up being required in lists. Chaos players (myself included) aren't going to be special in that regard.

Yes and it is poor games design from a company that is supposed to be all about creativity. GW's games can only improve if they remove the obligation to field special characters.

We're years into counts-as land anyway. I'm doing it, you're doing it, everyones doing it. It's an unfortunate design choice but it was pretty inevitable given the last few codexes.

I'm not doing it as it happens and simply because there is a precedent for something doesn't mean that it can't be changed.

Then don't do it. It's not like your anonymous silent protest will do anything aside from be a consistent annoyance to you and the people around you.

Now if that wasn't trolling I don't know what is.

My silent protest as you call it does damage GW in a very real way.,I simply don't buy anything from them. A drop in the ocean perhaps but an ocean is made from drops.

Bad games design will not make me want to play GW games, it really can't get any simpler. On that note I shall leave you to your self important sniping,

If that worked and they reacted to that kind of pressure (or could even identify it) then they would have shied away from doing it in the last six codexes. You might as well complain that the formatting of the books is still bad for all it'll actually do.

If the no demons part of the rumors holds true, I'm going to be a very sad panda. I have 20 metal damonettes that haven't seen the battlefield in years.

pretre wrote:

Cadaver wrote:Although you are right about not freaking out about it. Rumormongers on other forums are already calling BoK rumors fake or high mis-representative at the least, and stunt to draw website views. It's not like I'm going to rage quit over this or anything, but I do think it's a cop out and a lazy way for GW to represent legions.

I return to my thought that we need to have a sticky post with the accuracy percentages of all known rumormongers in N&R. Would help prevent some of these shenanigans.

I totally agree with this. Although it would be perhaps difficult to decide WHO exactly decides on the "accuracy" of posters' rumors. I presume some kind of MOD could do this, but I could see potential problems with the rumor-mongers claiming that they're being mis-represented and such. But the basic idea is a very good one, especially in light of the increasingly tight lid GW has held on any info.

LoneLictor wrote:Typhus isn't even part of the Death Guard anymore. He's a goddamn outcast.

They're all outcasts. The Legions are all broken up, with the occasional exception of the Black Legion getting the band back together, and to a lesser extent the Word Bearers. Chaos Space Marines now organize on the warband level, probably around the size of a SM company at their largest.

Well after reading these rumours I am highly disappointed, I was expecting the codex to be more in line with the 3.5 'dex in the sense that there is a lot of option in creativity and customisation.

That said, if these rumours are true then i suppose it means the Chaos Space Marine codex will be more in line with the fluff, cult troops being an elite choice, as the main traitor legions have split up apart from the Black Legion (who are still few in number in comparison to Space Marine chapters) and that the cult troops are a rarity.

I'm confused, weren't they gonna release a new starterpack "ala" AOBR this year?

Reality-Torrent wrote:I'm confused, weren't they gonna release a new starterpack "ala" AOBR this year?

All rumours seem to agree that this will be the case. But I doubt it'll happen before they release the new edition. It'll either come with the new edition or lagged by a month or two.

You know that they probably have dreadnoughts but they will be called:
Plague-noughts
Lust-noughts
Sorcery-noughts
Blood-noughts

Pure genious. Exalted even. =)

As a warhammer fantasy Warriors of Chaos player I've been on the verge of moving to the grimdark future with my current warhost. I'm really just waiting on 6th edition. That said, I have a hard time imagining them putting enough usable rules for spikey imperial guard into the same codex as spikey marines.

As far as Mortarion goes, I have a feeling he's probably going to be re-done and made weaker. After all, I'm sure having Draigo's masters name on his heart probably hurts his ward save or something.

This sounds terribly stupid.

So in order for me to field a khorne berzerker army i have to take a special character named kharn?

Why not make chaos lords useful again and instead make it so you have to buy a mark of a specific god for your lord and you get there cult troops as a troop choice.

Farmer wrote:This sounds terribly stupid.

So in order for me to field a khorne berzerker army i have to take a special character named kharn?

Why not make chaos lords useful again and instead make it so you have to buy a mark of a specific god for your lord and you get there cult troops as a troop choice.

I agree, we can only hope tha these rumours are false or they are wrong.

Just to clarify - these rumours are for the Renegades 'dex, yes? Or are we not sure that there are going to be separate books?

Farmer wrote:This sounds terribly stupid.

So in order for me to field a khorne berzerker army i have to take a special character named kharn?

Why not make chaos lords useful again and instead make it so you have to buy a mark of a specific god for your lord and you get there cult troops as a troop choice.

Because it would be unfluffy?

World Eaters are disbanded and spread about after Skalatharax. They don't fight as one. They fight with others, bandwagoning to whatever Chaos Lord, Sorcerer (yes, those too) or Daemon Prince offers the most bloodshed. The few, extraordinarily rare exceptions when Berzerkers would be found in numbers large enough to constitute an entire 40K army, Kharn would be with them anyhow.

Also, 40K has used the "Special-Character Mechanic" now since the Dark Angel Codex/Ork Codex. What is that? 5 years? Why would they change now?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Just to clarify - these rumours are for the Renegades 'dex, yes? Or are we not sure that there are going to be separate books?

Not going to be separate books.

Zweischneid wrote:

Farmer wrote:This sounds terribly stupid.

So in order for me to field a khorne berzerker army i have to take a special character named kharn?

Why not make chaos lords useful again and instead make it so you have to buy a mark of a specific god for your lord and you get there cult troops as a troop choice.

Because it would be unfluffy?

How is that anyless fluffy then a slannesh daemon prince in the same army as a bunch of plague marines? which is all the current codex has to offer.

aka_mythos wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:GW now has an established history of dropping failed units and replacing them with units that are the same concept but with new rules as a simple way of fixing the defficiencies of a unit... this is no different.

Did they ever drop a unit that has been in the game for, well, forever?

"Space Marine Veterans"... there is no longer a unit called that. They have been in every prior space marine codex. The notion of what that unit represents still exists but that unit as proper noun does not.

Hell, this has a strong parallel to when GW started calling the "Eldar Dreadnought" the "Wraithlord."

GW is trying to make things easier and prevent confusion, by calling them Lychguard as opposed to Pariahs it allows GW to change their rules more drastically and avoid the confusions of "My mistake, that's what Pariah used to do". It allows them to change the theme and adjust the concept of a unit. The Chaos Dreadnought, would forever be limited by the loyalist space marine notion of a Dreadnought as long as GW called it a "dreadnought".

Hypothetically if GW wants to make them a single more daemonic unit entry they don't want them restricted to the notion of a walker with AV12/12/10 and some combination of twin-linked weapon and DCCW; by changing the name of the unit it allows them to cover more divergent concepts... You can have a unit as different from a standard loyalist dreadnought as FW's Contemptor or even the Blood Slaughterer or heck maybe even something like the blight drone. This is just a hypothetical example but something like the blight drone, a flying dreadnought-ish unit might be too laughable until you remove the moniker of it being a "dreadnought."

I'm not making a judgement call on IF the results are good, just that I believe GW's standard rationale for this type of move is a good one.

Interestingly enough, the removal of SM vets as a unit (and the removal of Pariahs to a certain extent) go against your proposed broad av12 walker category. GW has been heavily segmenting entries lately, removing DIY units with multiple possible builds like the vets in favor of more specialized, narrower units with a more controlled wargear pool and rules that are hard to confuse between similar units. If we see more than one av 12 walker in the CSM dex, I expect it to be broken down into as many entries as there are variants, rather than merged into one.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Just to clarify - these rumours are for the Renegades 'dex, yes? Or are we not sure that there are going to be separate books?

Not going to be separate books.

...When was that confirmed? D:

Farmer wrote:

How is that anyless fluffy then a slannesh daemon prince in the same army as a bunch of plague marines? which is all the current codex has to offer.

Because Chaos by and large fight as mix-and-match warbands 99,9999% of the time. That's what makes them "different" to Loyalists. A uniform army that just switches out "red" for "blue" and "for the Blood God" for "for the Emperor" doesn't need a seperate Codex. You can use the marine book for that. What makes Chaos fluffy, distinct and worthy of their own book is the very fact that it's a motley, rowdy, infighting rag-tag warband that will fight each other almost as gladly as they fight the enemy across the board.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Just to clarify - these rumours are for the Renegades 'dex, yes? Or are we not sure that there are going to be separate books?

Not going to be separate books.

...When was that confirmed? D:

No one reputable has ever promised separate books.

Farmer wrote:[How is that anyless fluffy then a slannesh daemon prince in the same army as a bunch of plague marines? which is all the current codex has to offer.

Chaos Space Marines exist in groups of ad hoc alliances to accomplish their goals. A Slaanesh Daemon Prince hiring/dominating a Plague Marine coven to further his goals, and both sides of the alliance are probably planning on pulling one over on the other.