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My TL autocannon dreadnoughts have done pretty well, partly because I try to keep them out of enemy los on turn one if I'm going second. They're really good at taking out Aegis line Interceptor guns so my stormravens have unimpeded entry on turn 2. I think I've only lost one to being glanced to death so far, penetrating explosion is more common for me.

I always though deep striking terminators was a good way to ensure their death in 5th and 6th has done nothing to change that for me so far. If they could charge (albeit with some kind of hefty penalty (maybe something like getting only one attack per model and counting as assualting through difficult and dangerous terrain), then it could be useful. But with the very odd exception, I think Deep Strike is a bad idea.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:My TL autocannon dreadnoughts have done pretty well, partly because I try to keep them out of enemy los on turn one if I'm going second. They're really good at taking out Aegis line Interceptor guns so my stormravens have unimpeded entry on turn 2. I think I've only lost one to being glanced to death so far, penetrating explosion is more common for me.

I always though deep striking terminators was a good way to ensure their death in 5th and 6th has done nothing to change that for me so far. If they could charge (albeit with some kind of hefty penalty (maybe something like getting only one attack per model and counting as assualting through difficult and dangerous terrain), then it could be useful. But with the very odd exception, I think Deep Strike is a bad idea.

I've found the trick to deep strike is to target saturate them all at once. With a deep strike set up, I like to get at least 2-3 targets within assault/high threat range in the same turn. Personal teleporters, strom ravens + interceptors arriving all at the same time on someone's door step alongside the deep striking terminators tends to do better.

I've honestly not had that much success with the AC dread shooting down the quad guns as they need 3+ to wound still and can't deny the enemy a 3+ armor save either. Often the guns are behind the defense line too so people claim the 4+ cover even when I shoot them with my space monkey's Las cannons.

Usually takes me at least 2 -3 units to down a gun in one turn anyway. At least our power weapons work well on assaulting them anyway. Interestingly enough, I've killed the enemy's quad gun with my quad gun on 2 occassions so far when they misplaced their gun. I've also assaulted and killed off a unit controlling a gun and started using it against his own units on one occassion with some deepstriking terminators. Honestly we had no idea if I could take over an enemy's gun emplacement but it sounded like we should be able to. And besides, it was a fun way to play so we went with it.

Well, the gun emplacements only have 2 wounds. It a 2 wound T7 marine. An autocannon dreadnought should take a wound off it a round. 2 will kill it completely.

Yeah, combined fire from two tl autocannon, psybolt dreadnoughts has about a 95% chance of removing the interceptor gun. A single dreadnought has only a 35% chance.

Sethorly wrote:Out of interest I tried out a list with Mystics in transports racing up the field first turn to allow Terminators to deep strike without scatter on turn two 2" from the enemy deployment zone. As it happened the tactical situation demanded I moved the Mystics elsewhere, but they worked a treat for deep striking safely in a crowded battlefield.

I do not feel this is a strong build though, as there is so much plasma around: you either deep strike then Run and can't shoot then get taken out by plasma guns, or deep strike then Shoot and get taken out by a single plasma Blast (or satchel/demolition charge or w/e). If you deep strike away from the enemy front lines then you may as well have used a cheaper delivery method. Am I doing it wrong?

How have people's experiences of the Psyflemen been? Mine have been (easily) glanced to death in the first turn every game of 6ed.

For me (baring in mind we mostly play 1k games, 1.5 at most), theres a fine line with psyfledreads. You need to make the most of their 48" range, and keep the hell out of the 24-36" rangeband (plasma at least). Ontop of that, you need to have the other guy focus on the bigger threats in front of him (termies etc). Their still usable, we just cant rely on "lol fortitude" anymore, and treat them as the glass cannons they now are. Its a shame CC dreads arnt as usable anymore because of this, dropping one from the back of a raven or summoning it up with libby+termies was usualy a pretty good shock and awe tactic

So what's the consensus on henchmen shooty squads? 3 crusaders, monkey, servitors for heavy guns and henchmen for filling?

Contrary to my previous posts I'm going to entertain the idea of coteaz and henchmen squads for support to my GK's. Its the psyker in Coteaz that gets me.

servators are a mixed bag. I personally liked Sarth's idea on psykers hiding behind tanks.

No standardization yet for henchmen yet but so far I've had the best luck with:

2 monkies + 6 psykers + 4 bolter henchmen (sometimes stormbolters if I got the points to spare) + a razorback or chimera that's just like an extra squad member.

Cotez might be able to put some plasma servators with thim in his group and you can drop some psykers from that group if you want.

If you don't like psychic powers, some plasmagun acolytes would work ok as well. I think in that case, using crusaders is probably good.

Mass monkies? Not sure that's entirely viable.

I'm not really sure the math works out for crusaders vs just more acolyte bodies catching 5+ or 4+ saves but I'll leave that to someone else to figure out.

The way Prescience boosts all BS3 henchmen up to better-than-BS4 is a huge benefit. So much so that I think a good shooty henchmen list would be Coteaz + one or more Divination Inquisitors. Imagine the cost of those henchmen if they were BS4 - and we can get them better for cheaper.

With Psykers now being more common, it makes sense to use an OHI with psyocculum (other good wargear is power armour and 3 servo skulls). Psyocculum on psyker henchmen would be fun but too irregular.

Now we end up with maximising the effectiveness of 2 lots of Prescience by having 2 shooty henchmen units (2 jokaeros, 3 servitors, 7 stormbolter acolytes) all behind an Aegis Line with quad gun (and probably a Vindicare). The quad gun and ICs go between the units so they can hop from one to the other should the need arise. Perhaps plasma or melta acolytes would now be worthwhile in these units too (replacing stormbolter acolytes).

I'm also thinking of an OXI in power armour with 3 more servo skulls (fu outflanking fliers) and an ulumeathi plasma syphon with Prescience in a unit of 10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons - that's 8-16 psycannon shots at BS4 with rerolls to hit, where if your opponent is preparing to rapid fire you with plasma guns you can snigger.

So you could have 2 firesupport henchmen squads with rerollable BS3 shots (protected from assault by I've Been Expecting You and servo skulls) and 2 purifier squads with rerollable BS4 shots at 2k. The rerolls for Snapfire and Overwatch are icing on the cake.

Anyway, those are my ideas for maximising our firepower; can anyone think of any better way to utilise Prescience?

Nice new nugget that just came to my attention.

A Vindicare in a Fortress can allocate all the wounds caused if he shoots the Missile Silo.

Grey Templar wrote:Nice new nugget that just came to my attention.

A Vindicare in a Fortress can allocate all the wounds caused if he shoots the Missile Silo.

Hrm... I origionally thought we'd be able to fire directly somehow but I am not sure anymore. If we could fire directly, that combo would be probably worth it as it's got great range and decent firepower. The only problems I see are:

It's like 250 for the launcher + buildings, + 145 for the vindicare, pretty damn expensive for a pie plate with AV 14, plus I can't shoot the vindicare

If it's stuck shooting indirectly, it's pretty much hosed as a platform with just one pie plate a turn. I've messed alot with orbital bombardments before and especially with my abilitiy to roll horrible for the scatter dice, I'm not seeing it as too strong. Only 1/3 chance of a hit >.<

Also, even if I could fire it directly, I'll probably get some TFG putting a mountain right in front of it to block LOS so it really messes up the shooting though if it only fired indirectly anyway, I may just put a piece of LOS blocking terrain myself in front of it to prevent damage lol.

Seems like a lot of points for that thing


On the other front, literally, I've been thinking of what happens with our henchmen lines when getting hit by huge outflankers. What do you guys tend to do with a large out flanking group? Stash cotez with his plasma cannon servitors and friends in the corner? (warp charge now makes it no question that psyker squads are not gonna get multiple rounds of firing even if they could use that rule, might get one shot off on the enemy turn I think)

Hide everything in the middle?

Or get a fortress and hide in that?

The fortress of redemption missile silo can be fired directly too; so you do typically benefit from the assassin's ballistic skill of 8 in addition to it's 'deadshot' ability. It is a lot of points; but then again so is a land-raider, and this one has far better firepower and an essentially 'infinite' amount of hullpoints. You'd probably want someone manning the icarus lascannon too, which incidentally enough makes an excellent sniper weapon as well if no better target (read: flyer of some kind) presents itself.

It's my opinion that the fortress (and other kinds of fortifications) are a steal for what they bring to the table points-wise.

sudojoe wrote:
Or get a fortress and hide in that?

Where's your since of dignity man?!

You could center forces so your whole army is attacking a part of theirs. If they outflank and come in near you, you should have a good part of your army near them.

Yup, although manning the battlements is risky if the building is destroyed. especially if the dice hate you. I lost 2/3 of a Purifier unit on Saturday when their bunker got wrecked. Lots of 1s and 2s

Maybe its worth buying a couple minsized strike squads just to man the guns. 200 points get you 2 squads of 5 dudes to shoot the weapons at BS4. Plus their stormbolters if need be. Maybe upgrade them to Interceptors just so you don't take modifiers when leaping off the battlements.

Would it be wildly incorrect to propose that Terminator lists are now a bit more viable than paladin lists? My thoughts are that with the change to power weapons, terminator armor is more durable. Not to mention, terminators are much cheaper, allowing you to field more 2+/5++ armor on the field. This also gives you more scoring troops and manuever capability.

A fully tooled up paladin squad (banner, apothecary, draigo, x4 cannons, etc etc) is still great, but with the nerf to their force weapons, is it really worth investing 700+ points in one of these? Or split down into terminator squads and get more models on the table, with practically equivalient capabilities?

Would a pure draigowing be more appropriate above 2,000 points, with Terminators being the optimal choice for below 2,000? (Assuming no double FoC at 2,000 and up) Assuming the support that is needed for paladins and terminators below 2,000 points, I just don't see paladins being worth the huge investment they are given the envirnoment that is 6th edition.

Thanks!

your still fogetting that paladins are 2 wounds

so they are more resilient against anything other that S8 ap2 above

Paladins can also field more Psycannons per squad, which we all know are super amazing.

I thought about terminators vs paladins quite a lot before drawing up my original 2000 point list (which hilariously drew exactly the same 'it'll never work' comments as my 5th edition one).

At first I experimented with single paladins in 1000 point games, and was quite surprised at their versatility.

Then I looked at building 5 man squads like I used to.

Then I realised the benefits of universal: Look Out, Sir, Challenge acceptance, and FNP so ran up a quick ten man squad to run with Draigo.

Now I've only played 3 2000 point games so far (vs Templars, Space Wolves and a very nasty Necron list), but this squad has suffered no more than 3 casualties per game thus far. that's partly due to me running 3 ravens and tending only to move the paladins up the table once the flyers are on (so the enemy's distracted). But it's a beast of a unit that's still probably going to be quite capable if combat squadded in 4-5 objective games.

I do think though as it basically costs 750+ points plus Draigo to field that it's only really at all viable at 1750 and above (and 2000 is probably where you begin to get enough decent support in).

But on the other hand Draigo+solo paladin+10 man squad is coming in at nearly 1100 points, which is the same as the cost of 2 x 10 terminators, each squad with: psybolts, 2 psycannon, banner, Justicar thawn in one and a stave for te Justicar in the other.

Tough choice, I think. Especially as Coteaz makes a great HQ for the second option at relatively low cost.

Paladins and Terminators may have similar stat lines and wargear, but they play very differently. They're both fairly tough, and can hit hard in combat, but the extra wound and allowance for extra psycannons makes them much better suited for controlling entire segments of the board.

If you just want to get a job done, you send in Terminators. If you want control, you send in Paladins.

Where's your since of dignity man?!

You could center forces so your whole army is attacking a part of theirs. If they outflank and come in near you, you should have a good part of your army near them.

that dignity died when I started to field orange monkies with lazors!

sudojoe wrote:

Where's your since of dignity man?!

that dignity died when I started to field orange monkies with lazors!

LOL. There is nothing wrong with orange space monkies with pew pew laz0rs!

Fafnir wrote:If you just want to get a job done, you send in Terminators. If you want control, you send in Paladins.

I have to fully agree with this one. I'm at almost two dozen 6th ed games now, and I'm finally finetuning my list.

I run a 2-Stormraven combatsquadded 10 man Paladin squad (with 'nade techmarine and a librarian) which enters the game typically on Turn 3-ish. By the time my Paladins hit the field it's usually on Turn 4 only, to give my Stormravens a full turn of Zoom to get tactical positioning, draw fire from my beleagured forces which deployed, and a safe full turn of shooting. Now, some may cry out that I have essentially almost 1000 points invested in units which only deploy on Turn 4, and that I'm not using the full utility of their points cost.

However, the reality of this is that Paladins control and dominate an area of the board like no other, and in the way I use them, I drop them onto objectives to contest them heavily. Terminators WILL get focus-fired and die very quickly, while Paladins with 2 wounds apiece, FNP, and wound-allocation shenanigans with LOS stays alive almost by a factor of 4x better. They are essentially a brick which can't be moved that can still put out stupidly damaging amounts of shooting (4 psycannons, psybolt ammo for SBs), most of which will, by turn 4, be shooting at AV10 vehicle rear armor. And they'll be joined by Stormravens too. Also, even without the charge bonus to split-charge, Paladins split-charging don't run the risk of being overwhelmed by enemy close combat units (base attack 2+1 from bro banner is good enough!) that easily since each of them in their own right is a monster in close combat. Plus, again with FNP and LOS wound-allocation shenanigans.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Now I've only played 3 2000 point games so far (vs Templars, Space Wolves and a very nasty Necron list), but this squad has suffered no more than 3 casualties per game thus far. that's partly due to me running 3 ravens and tending only to move the paladins up the table once the flyers are on (so the enemy's distracted). But it's a beast of a unit that's still probably going to be quite capable if combat squadded in 4-5 objective games.

I do think though as it basically costs 750+ points plus Draigo to field that it's only really at all viable at 1750 and above (and 2000 is probably where you begin to get enough decent support in).

But on the other hand Draigo+solo paladin+10 man squad is coming in at nearly 1100 points, which is the same as the cost of 2 x 10 terminators, each squad with: psybolts, 2 psycannon, banner, Justicar thawn in one and a stave for te Justicar in the other.

How are you running this list, anyway? 3 Stormravens at around 600+ points with the 1100 points deploying in them (as quoted from your example) leaves you 300 points in a 2000 point game to spare to deploy forces which need to start on the board (remember, 50% of your army needs to be deployed). That's 300 points for 12 (1+1+10 from your above example) models that you need to deploy, which could very easily get wiped off the table (and thus cause you the game by Turn 2 from not having models on the board) without being properly set up/kitted out since they'll be receiving the full brunt of your opponent's shooting in Turn 1.

I'm new to the game, and GKs are my first army. I've been using just pure GK armies for the past month or 2. I've wanted to bring in Coteaz and 1 unit of henchman. I've heard about some success using him in 6th. But before investing into this I wanted to know how to best use a warband to compliment the GKs. For quick reference my squads are usually strike squads and/or terminators with psyrifle dreds. 6th editions rule changes to power weapons have left me with the feeling of lacking when I field by bros and I wanted to add more spice/versetility. Any tactics using Coteaz and his crew would be much appreciated.

Goat wrote:I'm new to the game, and GKs are my first army. I've been using just pure GK armies for the past month or 2. I've wanted to bring in Coteaz and 1 unit of henchman. I've heard about some success using him in 6th. But before investing into this I wanted to know how to best use a warband to compliment the GKs. For quick reference my squads are usually strike squads and/or terminators with psyrifle dreds. 6th editions rule changes to power weapons have left me with the feeling of lacking when I field by bros and I wanted to add more spice/versetility. Any tactics using Coteaz and his crew would be much appreciated.

I've included a fair bit on them but have not included cookie cutter builds yet just cause there's so many different varieties. I personally like them in a fire support role iwth long range shooting but something like a death star CC build with crusaders and DCA are also useful too and kind of depends on your perferred flavor.

So if you have some needs you see yourself lacking, that'd help us form a response. Check out the first page for a quick run down anyway. I'll probably add in some cookie cutter stuff after I finally settle on some myself with math-hammer/experiences.

So for you guys running a giant 10 man Paladin squad all kitted out with Draigo, what are you running for your other troop choice?

I tend to run 2 5 man paladin squads, but I'd rather run a single 10 man to give them other stuff, like psybolts, banner, might actually be tempted to run Apoth now that FNP affects everything too.

sudojoe wrote:

Goat wrote:I'm new to the game, and GKs are my first army. I've been using just pure GK armies for the past month or 2. I've wanted to bring in Coteaz and 1 unit of henchman. I've heard about some success using him in 6th. But before investing into this I wanted to know how to best use a warband to compliment the GKs. For quick reference my squads are usually strike squads and/or terminators with psyrifle dreds. 6th editions rule changes to power weapons have left me with the feeling of lacking when I field by bros and I wanted to add more spice/versetility. Any tactics using Coteaz and his crew would be much appreciated.

I've included a fair bit on them but have not included cookie cutter builds yet just cause there's so many different varieties. I personally like them in a fire support role iwth long range shooting but something like a death star CC build with crusaders and DCA are also useful too and kind of depends on your perferred flavor.

So if you have some needs you see yourself lacking, that'd help us form a response. Check out the first page for a quick run down anyway. I'll probably add in some cookie cutter stuff after I finally settle on some myself with math-hammer/experiences.

With the nerfs in power weapons, I've found the deathstar CC build to be less powerful now, so I used the points for a shooty henchmen list. I'm swapping out one of my Jokaero + Acolyte henchmen squads for a Psyker + Acolyte squad now, though. I'll see if I can find someone to play that list against tomorrow and let you guys know how it goes.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So for you guys running a giant 10 man Paladin squad all kitted out with Draigo, what are you running for your other troop choice?

I tend to run 2 5 man paladin squads, but I'd rather run a single 10 man to give them other stuff, like psybolts, banner, might actually be tempted to run Apoth now that FNP affects everything too.

I still find Draigo to be over-costed and competing for HQ slots with Coteaz and a Librarian for what he actually does - I still run a 10 man squad combatsquadded and stuck in 2 Stormravens, but that's just me.

Enigwolf wrote:

I still find Draigo to be over-costed and competing for HQ slots with Coteaz and a Librarian for what he actually does - I still run a 10 man squad combatsquadded and stuck in 2 Stormravens, but that's just me.

Are you taking Strike squads/termies or henchman for your troops then? Draigo making Paladins troops has been pretty nice, but then you end up with very few of them.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

I still find Draigo to be over-costed and competing for HQ slots with Coteaz and a Librarian for what he actually does - I still run a 10 man squad combatsquadded and stuck in 2 Stormravens, but that's just me.

Are you taking Strike squads/termies or henchman for your troops then? Draigo making Paladins troops has been pretty nice, but then you end up with very few of them.

I take 2 squads of 12 henchmen sitting in 3++ cover for troops. To be honest, I play a very risky game with objectives, since I can only capture them with these two squads, so I usually end up sitting them on my starting objective(s) and rely on my Paladins late-game contesting objectives with immovable Paladins, as well as racking up massive VPs through kills.

You're almost guaranteed to get First Blood if you have a 2x12 shooty henchmen in 3++ cover and a Vindicare with 2++ cover. If anything, the number of lascannons, plasma cannons, and the Vindicare shot will kill something regardless of whether you go first or second. Dropping Paladins off via Storm Raven nets you Line Breaker. Vindicares are great for picking off ICs/HQs too, so you can easily get the extra VP for killing his Warlord.

Now, I don't know how this list is going to play out against a swarm-built army like 'nids, orks, or IG yet though, since I can't heavily rely on VPs and contesting objectives as much.

Even if you choose to place the wound on IC, Ch. with the Vindicare can't they just LOS! it away?

Yes, but I suspect we will see a FAQ sometime explicitly disallowing a LoS.

Good point with the LOS! note. Hmm, thinking about it, generally speaking, if I'm looking to kill their IC, I place enough plasma templates and lascannon shots towards it that if there was a squad with it, it'd be pretty battered down by then. 3 Plasmacannon pie plates is no laughing joke...

Failing that, Vindicares can pretty reliably kill one tank every turn. (Since when did snipers become more efficient/effective/worthwhile in killing tanks than infantry?!)

How are you running this list, anyway? 3 Stormravens at around 600+ points with the 1100 points deploying in them (as quoted from your example) leaves you 300 points in a 2000 point game to spare to deploy forces which need to start on the board (remember, 50% of your army needs to be deployed). That's 300 points for 12 (1+1+10 from your above example) models that you need to deploy, which could very easily get wiped off the table (and thus cause you the game by Turn 2 from not having models on the board) without being properly set up/kitted out since they'll be receiving the full brunt of your opponent's shooting in Turn 1.

I'm aware of deployment rules and it's actually far from easy for the units deployed to get wiped off the board (unless you play with less than the regulation d3 terrain pieces per 2x2 square of course).

You have to bear in mind that specific deployment varies by terrain positioning,mission, whether I go first or second, night-fighting or lack thereof and the deployment type.

But crudely everytthing starts on the board in a way that will tend to deny the enemy decent los, bar the ravens and sometimes the lone paladin.

I never claimed to run the paladins in the ravens and personally I'd never do so now due to the absolute catastrophe that would result from one being shot down whilst zooming full of troops.

I also think that in at three of the missions (Relic, Purge, The Scouring), it's usually best not to combat squad the paladins anyway), in the Scouring it depends on the enemy list whether I do or not and ditto Emperor's Will. Only Crusade really needs them to be squadded, I find.

Draigo of course is an absolute bargain for his points, especially compared to a normal GM (level 2 psyker, +1WS, +1S, +1T and Eternal Warrior, plus Fearless and scoring paladins is easily worth more than 100 points in terms of what you get for the money) and the more so when run witha large paladin unit. He was great in 5th, he's greater (but in a rather less killy way) in 6th.